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Filmspotting Message Boards => No Movie Talk Allowed => Books => Topic started by: Sandy on April 06, 2016, 05:15:13 PM

Title: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 06, 2016, 05:15:13 PM
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2a4ww2.jpg)

Jane Eyre  by Charlotte Brontė (1847)



From "Funky MBTI in Fiction"

Jane Eyre [INFP]
Jane is a very passionate individual. She holds to her own set of values and is devoted to being true to herself... Jane weighs everything she sees through her personal values and opinions, and uses her feelings as her guide. She chooses her battles carefully and sees no need for deception. She feels rather unimportant and misunderstood in comparison to others. She longs to be rid of the structure and predictability of her life and... yearns for experiences.

Jane's humble nature may preclude her from feeling like she should have her own thread, but when a character says such things as, "I would rather be happy than dignified," and "I am not an angel and I will not be one till I die; I will be myself," she most certainly merits her own place for discussion. :)

I'll compile some comments already posted and any and all who would like to join in, please do!
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 06, 2016, 05:24:30 PM
From BBC Radio 4 Woman's Hour;

"Is it not an odd tale?"
Jane Eyre

Yes it is an exceedingly odd tale.  ;D

Yes it is! :))

Quote
And yet, Sandy, I'm going to make it my classic for April!

No way! Now that is dedication, cause I know how much the movie didn't work for you. :) I want to read a long! I'd like to revisit it and this is a good excuse and besides, if you're willing to read it, it's the least I could do to lend moral support.

Quote
The excerpt I heard between StJohn and Jane was amazing! The writing is extremely powerful. It seems Bronte set herself the challenge of the dumbest plot contrivances ever to see if people still liked her writing. How StJohn and her were connected is pretty dumb and they left it out of that film I think. But it sounded marvellous so screw the plot.

Yes, that plot point is the dumbest! But getting a wonderful character such as Jane, who cares? :)

And you're right, the movie version you saw didn't have the connection, thank heaven!

I hadn't heard of these BBC radio episodes before, but will listen in to the rest. The editing is really great, but there's a cute line it left out when Jane finds out their connection. Referring back to something he had chastised her for earlier, he says, "Did I not say you neglected essential points to pursue trifles? You were serious when I told you you had got a fortune; and now, for a matter of no moment, you are excited." :)

There is so much in the book, that isn't here, especially the mind games he plays with Jane to persuade her. It's pretty horrific.

My favorite line from the radio episode is, "If I join St. John, I abandon half myself."  She means the parts of her he is taking away, but I'd like to think she's also talking about Rochester being her other half." I get to interpret the way I want to, yes? :)

Quote
Also a Michael Kimmel (no idea about spelling) was on. He is a profeminist. He says he is not a feminist. To be a feminist would require some experience of the female condition which no man can claim. Somewhat like a civil rights campaigner going so far as to say they are black when they aren't.

Going back to books he remarked on how Jane Austen or the Brontes books were seen as having gender themes. Whereas Dickens is not seen as a masculine themed author. Even though his main titles are about young men looking for fathers! Love the perspective.

I got to listen in to some of this as well. I like his matter of fact way of expressing ideas and how he approaches the way to get men on board. It's that Yes, yes, salesmanship method. Do you have a sister or mother? Do you care about them? Do you want them to thrive? :) Yes. Much better than calling them out.

Quote
The best line:
The Objective Truth: Men and woman are different.
The Moral Truth: It's irrelevant. 
(paraphrase; my memory's not that good)

My truth: Men and women are different, Hallelujah! :))

Haha! Oh yeah!

Yes I'd love that read along. I'll keep you up to date on my progress and know I can give you my impressions as I'm reading. Brilliant! I've got no doubt that the characterisation is going to be a pleasure from what I heard. Ice and fire. She can't be his wife because she will turn to ice. Yes he manipulates her into learning another language. It's very spare dynamic writing. I was instantly hooked. I won't listen to the last part today to keep it fresh.

I'm glad you could dip into that show. Woman's hour is a great show and it's fascinating to hear a proper perspective on all sorts of matters even from my lack of womanness!

Yes, ice. :( That jerk.

Looking forward to hearing about what works and what doesn't in the story and the style of writing. I believe you will find out more what's in a woman's heart and mind than even the BBC Women's hour! :))
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 06, 2016, 05:50:34 PM
Of these death-white realms I formed an idea of my own: shadowy, like all the half-comprehended notions that float dim through children's brains, but strangely impressive. The words in these introductory pages connected themselves with the succeeding vignettes, and gave significance to the rock standing up alone in the sea of billow and spray; to the broken boat stranded on a desolate coast; to the cold and ghastly moon glancing through bars of cloud at a wreck just sinking.

-Jane Eyre

Bloody hell. Page 2. Erm Jane's lonely. Wow.

Indeed.

I looked up Bewick's, History of British Birds and found two of the illustrations and thought you might like to see them.

(http://i65.tinypic.com/29p6ao0.jpg)  (http://i64.tinypic.com/x3yer5.jpg)


Quote
This book is going to be one of words connecting themselves and gaining significance. I've made connection to Therese Raquin and Matilda already by the end of Chapter 1. The largest vignette to come to mind was the household in Thirst! Sorry Sandy that one might not be on the reading list.

I'm a bit flabbergasted. Enders Game. They're all ripping this book off. Plagiarism. It's a wonderful thing baby.

"Come Miss Jane, don't cry". She might as well have said to the fire, "don't burn!"

Fli- pin- heck.

:D

You're just getting started!

Is this the Thirst series by Christopher Pike? If so, you're right they're not on my reading list!

I started listening to Jane Eyre today. Had to be on the road for a while and it made the time go so fast! Very descriptive writing and she does a great job, coming from a child's way of thinking in the beginning chapters.

Jane Eyre started very well.

I'd observe that the authorial voice is strong for a 10 year old! Bronte says at one point Jane doesn't have the words to explain how she feels but it's first person and she has been articulating a fair bit.

Never mind I love it. I see what you see as far as archetypes and role models. The confidence of an intelligent girl who likes expressing herself. [....] This is a singular nothing gonna stop me character. Gonna be good discussing it.

:) She can't help herself! She must give voice to that child! I'm fascinated in Jane's adult self, trying to reach back to describe the thought processes of her child self.

"Unjust!--unjust!" said my reason, forced by the agonising stimulus
into precocious though transitory power: and Resolve, equally
wrought up, instigated some strange expedient to achieve escape from
insupportable oppression--as running away, or, if that could not be
effected, never eating or drinking more, and letting myself die.


If that's not a child's mentality, I don't know what is. :) The next paragraph she uses, "dense ignorance." She has all this emotional turmoil and no life experience to give her needed perspective.



You're also right in that I see her as a role model and I also see me in her.

It's interesting knowing you have such a strong connection to this character and how you use that in real life if at all. I mean it should be used. If only to know you aren't alone and isolated because someone has articulated that feeling and a long time ago. Makes it feel like there's an army of Jane out there.

Yes, probably! I kick myself for not taking the lessons from her better when I was younger. I just knew when I read it, that it was the second time I saw myself in a character (maybe third if I count Wrinkle in Time's Meg). I couldn't really find myself in many of the books I was reading. But I too didn't have the life experiences yet to give me that much needed perspective. It's only over the years that I've developed alongside her. I could gain strength and that feeling, like you said, of not being alone, but I couldn't usurp my own growth, no matter how much I relate to her, or how well it's all articulated. It's a mirror and a type of blue print and a touchstone all rolled into one. :) Do you have books like that for you?

Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 06, 2016, 06:58:39 PM
"'I should be glad if the superintendent and teachers were requested to keep a strict eye on her, and, above all, to guard against her worst fault, a tendency to deceit. I mention this in your hearing, Jane, that you may not attempt to impose on Mr Brocklehhurst."

Well might I dread, well might I dislike Mrs Reed, for it was her nature to wound me cruelly; never was I happy in her presence; however carefully I obeyed, however strenuously I strove to please her, my efforts were still repulsed and repaid by such sentences as the above. Now, uttered before a stranger, the accusation cut me to the heart; I dimly perceived that she was already obliterating hope from the new phase of existence which she destined me to enter; I felt, though I could not have expressed the feeling, that she was sewing aversion and unkindness along my future path


-Jane Eyre

It's indescribably brilliant writing. Like I said Sandy I'm slightly hearing words from a ten year old that aren't possible. That prediction of being set up to fail at school is one borne out of experience. I can see "Jane Eyre" as a book for adults with that understanding. You just talked (in PM) about wishing for more lessons from the story than you took, but if you mean when you were a child yourself its not reasonable to expect this to have the power its does as an adult. But the power is there. "She was sewing aversion and unkindness along my future path". It sticks in the throat with its power. Amazing.

I get where you're coming from and am here sifting through what she's expressing as an adult looking back and what her thoughts were as a child. The words that help me reconcile it, are "dimly perceived." I'm guessing at the time she, as a child, would have had a pit in her stomach, knowing something was going terribly wrong. She wasn't going to go to school with a clean slate, because Mrs. Reed was transferring her hatred and lies to Mr. Brocklehurst. I moved a lot as a kid and realized very early on, that first impressions were really important to my "standing" in a classroom. "Friendly, but not too eager" was my tactic. :)

Quote
I need a little help here;

"And the psalms? I hope you like them?"
"No, sir"
"No? Oh shocking! I have a little boy, younger than you, who knows six Psalms by heart: and when you ask him which he would rather have, a gingerbread-nut to eat or a verse of a Psalm to learn, he says; 'Oh! the verse of a Psalm! angels sing Psalms; ' says he,  "I wish to be a little angel here below; " he then gets two nuts in recompense for his infant piety."
"Psalms are not interesting, " I remarked.


So whats Jane's beef with Psalms?

Well, first I'd like to say, that kid didn't give a flying fig about Psalms! He was just a suck up! Or, just trying to protect himself.

Psalms are like song lyrics, :) so they have that going for them, but, they're all in the same vein and weren't challenging or compelling to Jane. INFP's (Sorry to throw personality type quotes around, but it's my type, so it helps me refer to it to answer the question.) are "patient with complicated situations (Revelations, Job, Samuel), but impatient with routine details (Psalms)." :D

Quote
Sandy I'd like to recommend the first chapters of "Hard Times" because the school scenes are synchronous, and the writing is resonant. Its probs online somewhere. These passages of Jane Eyre and Hard Times seem peas in a pod.

I'm not at all familiar with "Hard Times." But, I love all I've read from Charles Dickens and of course, seeing the film adaptations, so will seek it out! thanks!
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Junior on April 06, 2016, 11:59:01 PM
This is great. I love how much you love Jane Eyre. I'll come back and read more thoroughly when I read the book itself. Perhaps this summer! My summer reading list grows almost constantly. My only hope is that my now-improved reading speed will help me keep up with it!
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 07, 2016, 12:06:46 AM
Oh wow. You brought everything in here. Cool! This starts to look like a Serious Cool episode now.

I'll come back in with some more questions later.

Thirst is a film by Park Chan Wook. It has family in there who coset the son and somewhat crush his wife(?) I think wife. Then this priest turns up...... The entire tenet of households as oppressive prisons is being investigated thoroughly at the start of Jane Eyre but it probably isn't the original take. For instance I don't know or haven't checked the chronology between the Bronte's and Dickens. I will give it to C Bronte for the effectiveness of her description and especially for the depth of a rounded understanding of how it effected the child in positive ways. How much character it injects surviving psychologically in that environment. I haven't read that before. So that idea of an adult perspective placed on a child I think you are interpreting as a criticism. No. It's brave to focus on the child so completely when the tone is emphatically not childish. Like Dahls reading of Matilda. In that case you get a delicious twisting of fairytale ideas. JE is a straight reading of the condition and Matilda is a subversion a homage. Feels like it anyway. I was hoping to get to the source of the streams of more modern storytelling and JE feels like a source. I'd love the argument that says no go further back. JE is simply emphatically beautiful on the subject.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 07, 2016, 12:20:06 AM
Sandy. Have you read Wide Sargasso Sea by Jean Rhys. I think that's correct? Do you know the book and what it's about?

Ok what is now bothering me is that the book has a confirmed place as a classic but as a feminist milestone on the scale of Das Kapital for socialism it doesn't register. Do women meet to secretly to affirm that they are intelligent and lot else on a scale way beyond men? Like a secret revolutionary society. You have Jane. Now you have Helen and Miss Temple and they all seem perfect on a paragon level. I'm only half joking. This is amazing. It doesn't make it unreal but the perfection is something like a manifesto. Be these women!  I can't really think of a male counterpoint. In fact it makes the concept of manhood seem complacent compared to this nirvana for young ladies. Yes I know it's cruel. There's an idea in early Christianity of pretty much ignoring the physical aspect of life because all that matters is spirit and that mirrors the school where no one is fed properly and it is justified by bible quotes!

Amazing as always. 63 pages in. Just amazing.

I can remember Jane standing on a stool and some cruelty in the film but that isn't what is happening. So I'm even more suspicious of that film. If you are supporting the book by supporting the film I still get it but it doesn't seem right in any way. What am I getting wrong?
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 07, 2016, 02:48:43 PM
Gosh! There is so much here in your PMs to ponder on! I'm going to reply to it all bit by bit... :)

OAD!     Sending out the bat signal. :D


This is great. I love how much you love Jane Eyre. I'll come back and read more thoroughly when I read the book itself. Perhaps this summer! My summer reading list grows almost constantly. My only hope is that my now-improved reading speed will help me keep up with it!

haha! I find the more I read, the slower I get! (not research, but novels) I don't want to miss a word. :) I'd love to hear your thoughts on this book, Junior! Keeping my fingers crossed that it moves up your summer reading list!
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 07, 2016, 03:12:12 PM
I'm seeing some contradiction in those first descriptions though. Jane isn't humble. In fact if she is cornered she will give anybody both barrels. She talks about taking a cane from a teacher if she ever tried hitting her. She has though a listening ability. She shuts up as soon as any one has anything important to say. In her examination by Miss a Temple she remembers advice from a couple of sources and quietens her approach to become a more effective communicator. Not quiet not shy. Controlled. So we have two ears and two eyes but one mouth. Our communication should be in that proportion. No I know I'm breaking that rule in here but I acknowledge it in my username which is telling me to be quiet all the time. I know ironic. Verbal was a character who was known to say nothing until something happens that means he won't shut up. But he is fantastically eloquent. In other words don't speak until you have something to say. My only defence is that at the moment that's rather a lot. I expect to shut up and say nothing soon. Maybe.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 07, 2016, 03:25:12 PM
Oh wow. You brought everything in here. Cool! This starts to look like a Serious Cool episode now.

I'm not worthy! (insert signature smirnoff smiley gif here)

Quote
Thirst is a film by Park Chan Wook. It has family in there who coset the son and somewhat crush his wife(?) I think wife. Then this priest turns up......

Whoa, I think I just saw the whole thing in a trailer!

Quote
The entire tenet of households as oppressive prisons is being investigated thoroughly at the start of Jane Eyre but it probably isn't the original take. For instance I don't know or haven't checked the chronology between the Bronte's and Dickens. I will give it to C Bronte for the effectiveness of her description and especially for the depth of a rounded understanding of how it effected the child in positive ways. How much character it injects surviving psychologically in that environment. I haven't read that before. So that idea of an adult perspective placed on a child I think you are interpreting as a criticism. No. It's brave to focus on the child so completely when the tone is emphatically not childish. Like Dahls reading of Matilda. In that case you get a delicious twisting of fairytale ideas. JE is a straight reading of the condition and Matilda is a subversion a homage. Feels like it anyway. I was hoping to get to the source of the streams of more modern storytelling and JE feels like a source. I'd love the argument that says no go further back. JE is simply emphatically beautiful on the subject.

Love that last sentence. :)

Matilda is in my top 100 too. I must like the subject matter, straight forward or twisted. :)

I automatically go to Pip, when thinking of another retelling of a difficult and defining childhood, but Great Expectations didn't get written until 1861, so for now, Jane Eyre is the headwaters! Love to find earlier too.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 07, 2016, 03:30:15 PM
I'll be back, but need to drop in some Hamilton lyrics, just because. :)


[BURR]
While we’re talking, let me offer you some free advice
Talk less

[HAMILTON]
What?

[BURR]
Smile more

[HAMILTON]
Ha

[BURR]
Don’t let them know what you’re against or what you’re for

[HAMILTON]
You can’t be serious

[BURR]
You wanna get ahead?

[HAMILTON]
Yes

[BURR]
Fools who run their mouths off wind up dead




You're no fool, verbALs!!! Keep talking!! It's just a great song. :)
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 07, 2016, 03:34:37 PM
 ;D

Also how pointed is it that the central female characters in GExp are a woman destroyed by a failed wedding day and and a girl she uses as revenge. I don't see Bronte as being able to even conceive of that level of self immolation. Dickens in fact looks like a misogynist by direct comparison.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 07, 2016, 10:11:28 PM
Sandy. Have you read Wide Sargasso Sea by Jean Rhys. I think that's correct? Do you know the book and what it's about?

I rebel! No, I didn't know what that book was about before, but I'll not be reading it! My belief in Rochester is too strong to allow for this version to mar his story. He was just as unloved and uncared for as Jane, while growing up and his future was taken away from him, through the greed of his father and older brother. His integrity and good heart become apparent in his attempts at doing all he can for Bertha and his marriage. Even when he cannot stem the madness, he always cares for her, when he could have abandoned her. I will stand for Rochester, no matter what!!! Did I tell you INFP's are passionately loyal to specific people and causes? :D

Quote
Ok what is now bothering me is that the book has a confirmed place as a classic but as a feminist milestone on the scale of Das Kapital for socialism it doesn't register. Do women meet to secretly to affirm that they are intelligent and lot else on a scale way beyond men? Like a secret revolutionary society. You have Jane. Now you have Helen and Miss Temple and they all seem perfect on a paragon level. I'm only half joking. This is amazing. It doesn't make it unreal but the perfection is something like a manifesto. Be these women!  I can't really think of a male counterpoint. In fact it makes the concept of manhood seem complacent compared to this nirvana for young ladies. Yes I know it's cruel. There's an idea in early Christianity of pretty much ignoring the physical aspect of life because all that matters is spirit and that mirrors the school where no one is fed properly and it is justified by bible quotes!

Well, you men got Jesus. :)) Pretty hard act to follow.

Coming from a religious background, I've been immersed in, "be these women" from the get-go, such as Ruth, Esther, Mary... So when I read about Helen and Miss Temple, they fit in nicely with the impossible heights that were before me. I love Jane more so, because of my own shortcomings. When I quoted her words, "I am no angel..." I did so because I really love that quote!! I needed to know a person like her, who was still good and valued and yet embraced her mere mortality! *sigh of relief, gratitude and happiness!* Does this make a lick of sense? There is a lot of pressure for a naturally obedient and giving child, to live up to high ideals, especially when she's distracted by a dreamy and passionate heart. :)


Quote
Amazing as always. 63 pages in. Just amazing.

Because of your praise of what you've read so far of Brontė and your enthusiasm for what you've heard of John Barry so far, I'm super excited for you and your coming discoveries of these two artists!

Quote
I can remember Jane standing on a stool and some cruelty in the film but that isn't what is happening. So I'm even more suspicious of that film. If you are supporting the book by supporting the film I still get it but it doesn't seem right in any way. What am I getting wrong?

That scene is coming...

One of the things I love most about Jane Eyre (2011) is the way it is adapted and carefully edited. The choices are hard but I believe they, for the most part, are for the best.

In advertising, the rule for a 30 second commercial is, posit one idea, not three, not two, just one. It's all that will be remembered. Whenever I get sad that certain things from the book aren't being covered, I remember this rule. The stool scene is the fastest, most visual way to get across the evil of Brockelhurst. Helen said it best, "He is not a man of God."
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 07, 2016, 10:28:37 PM
I'm seeing some contradiction in those first descriptions though. Jane isn't humble. In fact if she is cornered she will give anybody both barrels. She talks about taking a cane from a teacher if she ever tried hitting her.

I'm definitely talking about an adult Jane, when I called her humble in the opening post. :) Interestingly, I learned something as an adult about humility, that I didn't really understand when I was young. I heard someone say, "Humility isn't about bringing yourself down, it's about elevating others around you." That is what Jane does. She see's everyone as potentially equal and valuable. 

Quote
She has though a listening ability. She shuts up as soon as any one has anything important to say. In her examination by Miss a Temple she remembers advice from a couple of sources and quietens her approach to become a more effective communicator. Not quiet not shy. Controlled. So we have two ears and two eyes but one mouth. Our communication should be in that proportion. No I know I'm breaking that rule in here but I acknowledge it in my username which is telling me to be quiet all the time. I know ironic. Verbal was a character who was known to say nothing until something happens that means he won't shut up. But he is fantastically eloquent. In other words don't speak until you have something to say. My only defence is that at the moment that's rather a lot. I expect to shut up and say nothing soon. Maybe.

:))


I was just thinking how wordy I'm being in this thread. I'm a listener by trade, so this a little uncharacteristic of me, except when I get started on stuff like this, which is near and dear to my heart... then watch out!!
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 07, 2016, 10:57:15 PM
;D

Also how pointed is it that the central female characters in GExp are a woman destroyed by a failed wedding day and and a girl she uses as revenge. I don't see Bronte as being able to even conceive of that level of self immolation. Dickens in fact looks like a misogynist by direct comparison.

oh, this is a whole new thread! Dickens as a writer of women characters. With Amy Doritt, and Esther Summerson in Bleak House, they're so perfect, they're almost martyrs. I can't tell if that is misogynistic or not. :) As for Estella, can you think of a more "household as oppressive prison" as hers was under the "care" of Miss Havisham? *shudders!*

I'm going to give Dickens a pass though, just on the fact he re-wrote the ending of GExp, so as to give Estelle redemption and renewal. I forgive him anything for that kindness. :)
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 08, 2016, 12:27:33 AM
Re: Brocklehurst- but the school of women completely disarm the idiot. If the film gives him power over Jane that the protection these women appear (at page 63) to give Jane then that's a serious misrepresentation. The stool incident is a moment of emancipation, almost, as Jane really joins the coven....I mean group. The entire operation of the school seems to be to channel the ignorance and evil of the male world away and around these girls.

Proof?  Helen's speech. I can't write it all. Her view of the world that is laid out to Jane is quite stunning. "We shall put off (our faults) in putting off our corruptible bodies; when debasement and sin will fall from us with this cumbrous frame of flesh"

Now I thought it was Jane spouting off again because the speech is so long. Then it turns out to be Helen (whose fate my missus just spoilt!). That's what I mean by the perfection of women here not just Jane.

It is so empowering.

I get what you mean. Men are born into an empowered state. Jesus is that embodiment. "Be like him" HIM. Not you ladies. I understand the pernicious nature of the message. I honestly feel my daughters have never been reigned back by subconscious bigotry but of course that subliminal state of restraint is beyond my wit to understand. I only look at the result. I don't rule my house. I live in it at the forebearance of my partner and daughter currently. She just got an offer she wants to take to continue her architecture course. She has will in abundance. Neither are slow in telling me to shut up.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: smirnoff on April 09, 2016, 12:09:29 AM
OAD!     Sending out the bat signal. :D

What that actually triggers. (https://i.imgur.com/MhSuriw.gif)
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 09, 2016, 12:17:42 AM
 :))




I'll be back to reply to your post tomorrow, verbALs!
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 09, 2016, 02:45:02 AM
A greenness grew over those brown beds, which, freshening daily, suggested the thought that Hope traversed them at night, and left each morning brighter traces of her steps.

Now that's just showing off!

Brontė is saying "I can keep this up all day you know"

Even Hope is a girl.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 09, 2016, 03:32:36 PM
Re: Brocklehurst- but the school of women completely disarm the idiot. If the film gives him power over Jane that the protection these women appear (at page 63) to give Jane then that's a serious misrepresentation. The stool incident is a moment of emancipation, almost, as Jane really joins the coven....I mean group. The entire operation of the school seems to be to channel the ignorance and evil of the male world away and around these girls.

They do have small victories, that he isn't even aware of. But, his iron-fisted control can't be bypassed in the end. He's undermined their well being for so long, some succumb and the others, even with all their untiring efforts, can't keep them safe.

I find it so interesting that he doesn't have control over his own family. They seem impervious to him, even flaunting their "worldliness." I can't help but think his excessive fervor in what he's doing to the school is related to his powerlessness at home.

Quote
Proof?  Helen's speech. I can't write it all. Her view of the world that is laid out to Jane is quite stunning. "We shall put off (our faults) in putting off our corruptible bodies; when debasement and sin will fall from us with this cumbrous frame of flesh"

Now I thought it was Jane spouting off again because the speech is so long. Then it turns out to be Helen (whose fate my missus just spoilt!). That's what I mean by the perfection of women here not just Jane.

It is so empowering.

Oh, how I love Helen. :) I hadn't read her speech in a long time, but it changed me in a big way when I first encountered it. I too wanted justice, like Jane. I too wanted things to be made right. Even though I haven't gone back to the book a lot, there is a song I listen to often when I need to remind myself and it brings me back to her perspective. It's Helen's song from the Broadway musical. 

Forgiveness (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf5Ney-gs8w&nohtml5=False)

I personally believe we'll be more than a spark of spirit after this life, but her understanding of where real strength comes from, is so compelling. This time through that section of the chapter, the part that really has had me pondering, is the outburst from Jane and Helen's response.

Helen - If all the world hated you, and believed you wicked, while your own
conscience approved you, and absolved you from guilt, you would not
be without friends.


Jane - No; I know I should think well of myself; but that is not enough:
if others don't love me I would rather die than live--I cannot bear
to be solitary and hated, Helen. Look here; to gain some real
affection from you, or Miss Temple, or any other whom I truly love,
I would willingly submit to have the bone of my arm broken, or to
let a bull toss me, or to stand behind a kicking horse, and let it
dash its hoof at my chest--
         (This is so Jane! :) )

Helen - Hush, Jane! you think too much of the love of human beings; you are
too impulsive, too vehement; the sovereign hand that created your
frame, and put life into it, has provided you with other resources
than your feeble self, or than creatures feeble as you. Besides
this earth, and besides the race of men, there is an invisible world
and a kingdom of spirits: that world is round us, for it is everywhere; and those spirits watch us, for they are commissioned to guard us...


My new-age sister believes this and it's similar to what I've been taught. It's just that it's a really big concept, but hearing it from Helen, it brings me a type of comfort and it also reminds me to not rely on other's approval for my own worth. :)

Quote
I get what you mean. Men are born into an empowered state. Jesus is that embodiment. "Be like him" HIM. Not you ladies. I understand the pernicious nature of the message.

Yes. And I think it's not even intentional, for the most part. Patriarchy is a self perpetuating conundrum.

Quote
I honestly feel my daughters have never been reigned back by subconscious bigotry but of course that subliminal state of restraint is beyond my wit to understand. I only look at the result. I don't rule my house. I live in it at the forebearance of my partner and daughter currently. She just got an offer she wants to take to continue her architecture course. She has will in abundance. Neither are slow in telling me to shut up.

:D

You and your partner did good! It's a difficult thing to keep the pendulum in the middle, so just remember, your strengths and gifts have been just as important and vital to your daughter's well being and to your home's equilibrium.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 09, 2016, 03:35:08 PM
Brontė is saying "I can keep this up all day you know"

:))

Yes she is and yes she can!
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 09, 2016, 03:50:40 PM
Very good. The spiritual lessons are ones you can delineate to me better than I can appreciate myself. Sometimes the message is well aren't you simlly grateful for existing. What more do you want? So why aren't you constantly giving thanks to the Lord? As if anything else would be selfish. It serves other people's aims keeping some people down. In fact the original bibles of the Holy Roman Empire seemed to take lessons from wherever with an aim of a political stability in the region more than any concern for personal spiritual wellbeing. Almost as if know your place was the key message. Now none of that negates faith or belief or attention to ones spiritual well being. Taking extreme answers never is. The Victorian mindset is so rigid in these areas. The ability to bear up to almost to a scouring of the soul clean. I can actually see why such rigour will produce strength of character but it's ina "if it don't kill me it makes me stronger". People will have fallen by the wayside to disease and poor care. Then it not surprising the strong survive to perpetuate the message. The weak aren't so lucky. Anyway it's a bonus that Bronte can insert these spiritual layers so masterfully.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 10, 2016, 12:28:52 PM
First two meetings of Jane and Rochester.

He accuses her of being a goblin spreading ice on the road!

Then he sees her paintings. He sees her.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 11, 2016, 09:23:10 AM
 :)

Is there anything more wondrous than that?

I'll be back later today to reply to your last two thoughts and there's a little piece in the book that I want to rewind to, because it may be the most important piece of all!...
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 11, 2016, 09:25:58 AM
Yes Miss Sandy.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 11, 2016, 03:29:24 PM
Yes Miss Sandy.

Had I been the eldest daughter, the proper way to address me would be by my surname, but since I'm the youngest, this is fine and appropriate. Besides, it's much more preferable over Auntie Sandy. ;)

Very good. The spiritual lessons are ones you can delineate to me better than I can appreciate myself. Sometimes the message is well aren't you simply grateful for existing. What more do you want? So why aren't you constantly giving thanks to the Lord? As if anything else would be selfish. It serves other people's aims keeping some people down. In fact the original bibles of the Holy Roman Empire seemed to take lessons from wherever with an aim of a political stability in the region more than any concern for personal spiritual wellbeing. Almost as if know your place was the key message. Now none of that negates faith or belief or attention to ones spiritual well being. Taking extreme answers never is. The Victorian mindset is so rigid in these areas. The ability to bear up to almost to a scouring of the soul clean. I can actually see why such rigour will produce strength of character but it's ina "if it don't kill me it makes me stronger". People will have fallen by the wayside to disease and poor care. Then it not surprising the strong survive to perpetuate the message. The weak aren't so lucky. Anyway it's a bonus that Bronte can insert these spiritual layers so masterfully.

I've been reading and re-reading this. I believe you are delineating quite nicely. Power corrupts in religion just as readily as it does in governments and industry, but playing the God card is it's own psychological nightmare. It heaps guilt onto a victim's shoulders. Look at Helen, who's more pure than anyone you or I could meet and yet she believes her deficits define her. That makes me very sad. It's the ones who are trying the hardest, who are most susceptible to that idea of, "anything else would be selfish."



Alright, let me go back a little, since it's so very thrilling. An awakening!


...another discovery dawned on me, namely, that in the interval I had undergone a transforming process; that my mind had put off all it had borrowed of Miss Temple--or rather that she had taken with her the serene atmosphere I had been breathing in her vicinity--and that now I was left in my natural element, and beginning to feel the stirring of old emotions... now I remembered that the real world was wide, and that a varied field of hopes and fears, of sensations and excitements, awaited those who had courage to go forth into its expanse, to seek real knowledge of life amidst its perils... I desired liberty; for liberty I gasped; for liberty I uttered a prayer...

and then reality sets in,

...it seemed scattered on the wind then faintly blowing. I abandoned it and framed a humbler supplication; for change, stimulus: that petition, too, seemed swept off into vague space: "Then," I cried, half desperate, "grant me at least a new servitude!" ...There is something in that," I soliloquised... "I know there is, because it does not sound too sweet; it is not like such words as Liberty, Excitement, Enjoyment: delightful sounds truly; but no more than sounds for me; and so hollow and fleeting that it is mere waste of time to listen to them. But Servitude! That must be
matter of fact. Any one may serve:


Jane, ever practical, even with her passionate heart, she knows she cannot go back to where she'd been "hibernating/cocooning," but she doesn't have the wherewithal to go -- full on freedom! So, she takes the next step, which is a really big one for someone who hasn't had any experience in the world.

The beauty of this is, that she is awake and aware and moving forward, without knowing what is ahead. Very brave! And, something even more beautiful -- What has been awakened cannot be put to sleep again. She is changed and she is becoming... Her story is unfolding. :)




Okay, back to Rochester. What do you think of him so far?
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 11, 2016, 04:14:28 PM
Rochester is displaying an irritating quality of the English called being standoffish. Conducting personal relations at an arms length. Unfriendly. But he is obviously burdened. I wish that movie hadn't come first so that mystery of what skews his behaviour isn't apparent. It explains that he has had a toorid relationship with his family. It also explains or implies that he used to being the boss and basically taking to subordinates. Given the times they could almost be slaves but that is inferred by the stern tone of address.

He's weird. But he is forced this way as if he has a skeleton in the closet in the metaphorical sense. On which note I could do without the laughter in the attic. I still can't see the necessity of such a lurid direction in such a spiritual subtle work.  Bloody Victorian Melodrama.

I am delighted by the Victorian notion of carrying around party pieces to play like Jane does or the daughter. I'll sing I'll recite I'll dance. Basically keep Being impressive until someone says that's enough. Pre-tv ways to entertain that are nourishingly cultured. Rochester displays his own breeding and artistic sensitivity. So not a total oaf at all.

Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 12, 2016, 05:41:50 AM
This was too long to quote, so I found that voice recorder thing;

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0LrZXgySrqG (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0LrZXgySrqG)

Note how candour is met, and how Jane is identified as a listener.

And I didn't think you were taking as many lessons from the book. Just specific ones.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 12, 2016, 04:21:49 PM
This was too long to quote, so I found that voice recorder thing;

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0LrZXgySrqG (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0LrZXgySrqG)

So great! You wouldn't perchance have time to just read aloud the whole book, would you? :)


Quote
Note how candour is met, and how Jane is identified as a listener.

And I didn't think you were taking as many lessons from the book. Just specific ones.

There are lessons all through it to be learned, whether when I was a teenager, or as I've been ready for them over the years, but there is also recognition. How surprising it was to come across character traits that I knew so intimately. They weren't learned or acquired, "nature did it" and it was affirming to know that someone else had similar ones, even if they were written for a make believe character.

“Which of us has not felt that the character we are reading in the printed page is more real than the person standing beside us?”  :)

What characters have you found that come closest to you in personality and temperament?
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 12, 2016, 11:52:10 PM
I didn't reply to you answering my question about Rochester yet. I too wish you hadn't seen the movie and could let this story unfold in book form. It seems more your cup of tea coffee. But, I do like seeing how statements, that I missed on first reading, are so full of meaning, now that I know his story. They were lost on me then.

He is weird. :D haha. Yet he also has, like you say, artistic sensitivity and much self awareness. There is a spark of life in him, just waiting to be reborn and Jane is the lucky one who gets to ignite it and discover all that is there.

I think how whoafully un-entertaining I would be if someone had to listen to me sing, or play piano, or recite... but! I am good with games and can carry on a conversation, so there's that! :)
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 13, 2016, 12:12:01 AM
You read some. McGee. I admire the acuity of JDMs vision on people. Elmore Leonard's heroes are so admirable. Both may be aspirational in a "I wish I could be cool" way. But I've been taking my retirement when I can like McGee for a while (stopping now) so it has rubbed off. I see it as wise writing.

Maybe the lessons of JE will come. At the moment it's mostly Bronte sees things clearly or she sets them up to be clear. Rochesters telepathy is too sure for any breathing human. Looks great on paper tho.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 13, 2016, 02:14:08 PM
Well I give up quoting altogether because it would be the entire book. Consistently high level writing. The scenes with the guests arrived are sublime. Janes descriptions of her feelings. The drawing of herself compared to this paragon woman. Sublime writing.

I feel like I can speed read knowing I'll read it again or know which sections to come back and pore over. There seem to be more nuances to the laughter plot line here. It all feeds the building of character which is already monumental.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 14, 2016, 12:14:26 AM
I'm almost there in the book, so will reply soon, and will also reply about McGee! Great choice!

but I did want to answer this little bit,

Quote
Rochesters telepathy is too sure for any breathing human. Looks great on paper tho.

I believe you're right. It might be a woman author's wishful thinking, having a man read her character's mind, but some people too are extremely easy to read. I was once told that I should never play poker, because my eyes reveal everything. :D

I could wear sunglasses, couldn't I?
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 14, 2016, 12:44:16 AM
And Jane is so strikingly confident that the direct connection between her thoughts and her expression may have made her easy to read. I somewhat feel the same but I've had advice about keeping the immediate reaction off my face and letting the more considered response develop in my head. Anyone looking at me is already reacting to the look on my face. I'm not comfortable with being told to be less than brutally honest. I'm not a complete Neanderthal. I can see the advantage of managing the message better. I had a long conversation with another salesman (I believe you stop doing that job you never stop being a salesman though. Not for a second) and the levels of continual outward challenge to the world that you get into as a mindset is both ferocious and unnerving. The look on the face is another weapon in the assault on the world. All I can remember from meeting you was smiling a lot. You put me in a very good mood but Devlin though. Hmmm. Perhaps I could sense another lion in the room. I was somewhat deflecting his "who is this guy?" Questions. I don't like talking about work as if it defines anything in people. Perhaps that showed on my face. You can see it was a very entertaining evening for me.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 14, 2016, 09:46:19 PM
You read some. McGee. I admire the acuity of JDMs vision on people. Elmore Leonard's heroes are so admirable. Both may be aspirational in a "I wish I could be cool" way. But I've been taking my retirement when I can like McGee for a while (stopping now) so it has rubbed off. I see it as wise writing.

I haven't read any of Leonard's books :( so can't compare his characters to you, but I know McGee! Yes, he "takes his retirement in installments." How best to compare you two? hmmm, how about words out of his own mouth?! 

I tried to look disarming. I am pretty good at that. I have one of those useful faces.

Get out there and sell. Gleam those teeth. Look them square in the eye. You get out of it what you put into it. A smile will take you a long way. Shake hands as if you mean it. Remember names. ;)   (Had to put a salesmanship quote in here!)

Education is something that should be apart from the necessities of earning a living, not a tool therefore. It needs contemplation, fallow periods, the measured and guided study of the history of man’s reiteration of the most agonizing question of all: Why?

The only thing in the world worth a damn is the strange, touching, pathetic, awesome nobility of the individual human spirit.

I think there is some kind of divine order in the universe. Every leaf on every tree in the world is unique. As far as we can see, there are other galaxies, all slowly spinning, numerous as the leaves in the forest. In an infinite number of planets, there has to be an infinite number with life forms on them. Maybe this planet is one of the discarded mistakes. Maybe it's one of the victories. We'll never know.


Just as I figured. I believe you two are the same person. :)


Well I give up quoting altogether because it would be the entire book. Consistently high level writing. The scenes with the guests arrived are sublime. Janes descriptions of her feelings. The drawing of herself compared to this paragon woman. Sublime writing.

:) Yes, copying down all that I wish too, could bog this thread way down! But, there is something I want to note about a film adaptation. Not only does Jane subject herself to creating and studying those comparison drawings, she first gives herself a talking too, that is so self-excoriating, it leaves me stunned in sympathy.

Arraigned at my own bar, Memory having given her evidence of the hopes, wishes, sentiments I had been cherishing since last night--of the general state of mind in which I had indulged for nearly a fortnight past; Reason having come forward and told, in her own quiet way a plain, unvarnished tale, showing how I had rejected the real, and rabidly devoured the ideal;--I pronounced judgment to this effect: That a greater fool than Jane Eyre had never breathed the breath of life; that a more fantastic idiot had never surfeited herself on sweet lies, and swallowed poison as if it were nectar.

"YOU," I said, "a favourite with Mr. Rochester? YOU gifted with the power of pleasing him? YOU of importance to him in any way? Go! your folly sickens me. And you have derived pleasure from occasional tokens of preference--equivocal tokens shown by a gentleman of family and a man of the world to a dependent and a novice. How dared you? Poor stupid dupe!--Could not even self-interest make you wiser? You repeated to yourself this morning the brief scene of last night?--Cover your face and be ashamed! He said something in praise of your eyes, did he? Blind puppy! Open their bleared lids and look on your own accursed senselessness! It does good to no woman to be flattered by her superior, who cannot possibly intend to marry her; and it is madness in all women to let a secret love kindle within them, which, if unreturned and unknown, must devour the life that feeds it...



Harsh, necessary and perfect in written form, but what to do with it in a film? Charlotte Gainsbourg looks in a mirror, feels all of that above in a moment and says,

(http://i64.tinypic.com/b6blhx.jpg)

It too is perfect and is part of the reason this adaptation is in my top 100.

 
Quote
I feel like I can speed read knowing I'll read it again or know which sections to come back and pore over. There seem to be more nuances to the laughter plot line here. It all feeds the building of character which is already monumental.

Wasn't sure if this aspect would grow on you, or be increasingly frustrating. :) I'm not speed reading, but it's difficult to put the story aside sometimes and come back to the real world.

And Jane is so strikingly confident that the direct connection between her thoughts and her expression may have made her easy to read. I somewhat feel the same but I've had advice about keeping the immediate reaction off my face and letting the more considered response develop in my head. Anyone looking at me is already reacting to the look on my face. I'm not comfortable with being told to be less than brutally honest. I'm not a complete Neanderthal. I can see the advantage of managing the message better. I had a long conversation with another salesman (I believe you stop doing that job you never stop being a salesman though. Not for a second) and the levels of continual outward challenge to the world that you get into as a mindset is both ferocious and unnerving. The look on the face is another weapon in the assault on the world.

It is wise advice! Managing the message is exactly what one would want to have in their own power. Must practice this!

Quote
All I can remember from meeting you was smiling a lot. You put me in a very good mood

It was fun! And, you're an excellent tour guide.

Quote
but Devin though. Hmmm. Perhaps I could sense another lion in the room. I was somewhat deflecting his "who is this guy?" Questions. I don't like talking about work as if it defines anything in people. Perhaps that showed on my face.

Unfortunately, that is how he defines himself, so it's the type of conversation he would be comfortable having. You handled it very graciously.

Quote
You can see it was a very entertaining evening for me.

I'm glad!
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 14, 2016, 10:05:51 PM
No idea why I'm awake so that's a great post to catch. And Antares. Hello mate!

That would have been the passage. Trying herself in front of her court! I wonder about the alternative "You fool". It's the completion of the thought that makes the book so special. Bronte isn't struggling to make concise descriptions. She honours the weight of the thought every time. Finds a metaphor and explores it completely. Some books are unfilmable. True you can film the story but without a voiceover you aren't filming Jane Eyre at all. I know you don't feel like that.

Yes maybe I am just a construction of phrases from 21 books of McGee. He becomes more contemplative as the books continue. I couldn't deny any of those quotes.

Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: smirnoff on April 14, 2016, 11:25:21 PM
And Antares. Hello mate!

(https://i.imgur.com/3zfMtPr.gif)

Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 15, 2016, 04:18:15 PM
You do know him then?




No idea why I'm awake so that's a great post to catch.

4 a.m.?

"You are either very late or very early. What's your view of it?   Name that movie! (Hint: It's in my top 10. :) )


Quote
That would have been the passage. Trying herself in front of her court! I wonder about the alternative "You fool". It's the completion of the thought that makes the book so special. Bronte isn't struggling to make concise descriptions. She honours the weight of the thought every time. Finds a metaphor and explores it completely. Some books are unfilmable. True you can film the story but without a voiceover you aren't filming Jane Eyre at all. I know you don't feel like that.

"She honours the weight of the thought every time." :) I keep re-reading this sentence. Brontė must love the character she has created, to want to know her that well.

I don't know if I disagree with you, for internal thoughts are nigh unto impossible to film well. But, I'm lucky in that I carried the book with me and each of the renditions of the film I've viewed, into the latest version. I believe it was you who talked of how each iteration, builds on the last, until there's a expansive composition inside. It's kind of like a creation of my own now, with my own experiences and views added into the mix.

The 2011 version happens to be the one that most aligns with what I want a visual story of Jane Eyre to look and feel like. The one I've compiled in my head and heart is my favorite though. :)

Quote
Yes maybe I am just a construction of phrases from 21 books of McGee. He becomes more contemplative as the books continue. I couldn't deny any of those quotes.

:)

How wonderful that we allow books, music, movies... which speaks to us, shape us in certain ways. Evolution through art.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 16, 2016, 06:23:20 AM
True, generous feeling is made small account of by some, but here were two natures rendered, the one intolerably acrid, the other despicably savourless for the want of it. Feeling without judgment is a washy draught ended; but judgment untempered by feeling is too bitter and husky a morsel for human deglutition

Deglutition- means the process of swallowing. I had to look that up...Victorian medical terms ftw

Now doesn't this relate to how judgement is applied to something like a movie, in a review?

I can say that I found the almost celebratory wallowing in the consequences of poor character on the horrible family Jane left behind unscathed, a little pointless at first, until a bit of plot kicks in. You can sometimes feel that the way poor judgment reflects on people, will catch up on them one day. You can challenge it, as a way of pointing it out to them. You know pull on their reigns to help change their course, or just sit there watching. Perhaps the ultimate Jane would have realised where all this was going for the Reeds and not selfishly stood aside. ;D Yes I know how harsh that is. Asking Jane to fight the oppressive nature of these people, to save them from themselves! Preposterous! Except Sandy, you would. You wouldn't stand there watching people go up in flames if you could help would you? And Jane is capable of helping. She returns with a desire to be generous to these people. She expresses it well. She is rebuffed but so what? Who cares about bad attitudes. They don't hurt you, and they haven't hurt her, just made her stronger. Having posited this scenario Brontė somewhat fumbles the ball there. I am being incredibly harsh, and asking for absolute selflessness. Ignore insults? Why? You would need encouragement from the object of that insulting behaviour, wouldn't you? Some hope of redemption....because the horse drinks for itself, whether you brought the horse to water or not. If it wants to die of thirst it will. Will. Will isn't a good thing unless the intention is good. As Brontė puts it ; "generous feeling" "feeling without judgement".

What I worry about, as one gets older, is that feeling gets abraded away. Sensitivity is mocked and derided, and it embarrasses people into a submissive coldness. When the positive benefits of feeling are required there's not enough feeling left to summon up a good response to emotion. One can't handle it, so one ignores it. In Jane Eyre terms you leave yourself ill-equipped to make a sound judgment. Life abrades away one's judgment. No fool like an old fool.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 18, 2016, 06:41:27 PM
I had to teach a class this weekend, so got a little behind, but am caught up now!

True, generous feeling is made small account of by some, but here were two natures rendered, the one intolerably acrid, the other despicably savourless for the want of it. Feeling without judgment is a washy draught ended; but judgment untempered by feeling is too bitter and husky a morsel for human deglutition

Deglutition- means the process of swallowing. I had to look that up...Victorian medical terms ftw

Now doesn't this relate to how judgement is applied to something like a movie, in a review?

ġēse   - means yes...Old English term ftw. :)

Quote
I can say that I found the almost celebratory wallowing in the consequences of poor character on the horrible family Jane left behind unscathed, a little pointless at first, until a bit of plot kicks in. You can sometimes feel that the way poor judgment reflects on people, will catch up on them one day. You can challenge it, as a way of pointing it out to them. You know pull on their reigns to help change their course, or just sit there watching. Perhaps the ultimate Jane would have realised where all this was going for the Reeds and not selfishly stood aside. ;D

:)) What, with her two shillings in her purse? As a student at Lowood? Did you want her to march in there and knock some sense into all of them? Do you think, just because she can charm Mr. Rochester, John would have been persuaded to be a little more thrifty? :)

Quote
Yes I know how harsh that is. Asking Jane to fight the oppressive nature of these people, to save them from themselves! Preposterous! Except Sandy, you would. You wouldn't stand there watching people go up in flames if you could help would you?

Oh, wouldn't I?! :))

Seriously though, I don't believe she was in any position to help. The operative word is cast-off. She was dead to them and wouldn't intrude into their world unless summoned, and then of course she came and wouldn't be deterred, insisting on seeing Mrs. Reed and staying with the family until she was no longer needed.

Quote
And Jane is capable of helping. She returns with a desire to be generous to these people. She expresses it well. She is rebuffed but so what? Who cares about bad attitudes. They don't hurt you, and they haven't hurt her, just made her stronger. Having posited this scenario Brontė somewhat fumbles the ball there. I am being incredibly harsh, and asking for absolute selflessness. Ignore insults? Why? You would need encouragement from the object of that insulting behaviour, wouldn't you? Some hope of redemption....because the horse drinks for itself, whether you brought the horse to water or not. If it wants to die of thirst it will. Will. Will isn't a good thing unless the intention is good. As Brontė puts it ; "generous feeling" "feeling without judgement".

Help me understand. Isn't Jane being completely selfless? "Love me, then, or hate me, as you will," I said at last, "you have my full and free forgiveness: ask now for God's, and be at peace."

Do you think Jane would be more selfless, calling people on their insults? Expecting them to apologize? To what end? I believe she has the wherewithal to know that the best thing she can do with these people is to be consistently kind and generous and show something better, by way of example. You're right a horse will drink only if it is ready to do so.

What am I missing? :)

Quote
What I worry about, as one gets older, is that feeling gets abraded away. Sensitivity is mocked and derided, and it embarrasses people into a submissive coldness. When the positive benefits of feeling are required there's not enough feeling left to summon up a good response to emotion. One can't handle it, so one ignores it. In Jane Eyre terms you leave yourself ill-equipped to make a sound judgment. Life abrades away one's judgment. No fool like an old fool.

Jane will bypass this. She is impervious to their slights and rejection, for she has gone on to much, much bigger and better things.

A sneer, however, whether covert or open, had now no longer that power over me it once possessed: as I sat between my cousins, I was surprised to find how easy I felt under the total neglect of the one and the semi-sarcastic attentions of the other--Eliza did not mortify, nor Georgiana ruffle me. The fact was, I had other things to think about; within the last few months feelings had been stirred in me so much more potent than any they could raise--pains and pleasures so much more acute and exquisite had been excited than any it was in their power to inflict or bestow--that their airs gave me no concern either for good or bad.

She has expanded her heart and mind, not just because of Rochester, and will not allow others' smallness to diminish her. Fight the good (Sensitivity) fight!


What did you think of the gypsy trick. Cruel? Ends justify the means? His description of her features is one of my favorite (of many) moments. :)
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 19, 2016, 01:13:20 AM
I said I was being harsh.

Bronte. She clearly wants Jane to see the other end of that character development of the family. Then she shows what a cool kid Jane is with her reaction. I'm stretching Brontes point. Jane is so capable that she could deal with this family. If she chose. That's how strong Bronte writes her. My real point was YOU Sandy in that situation. You would.  ;D you would find a way.

I don't think the gypsy trick would have fooled her for a second. Ingram yes. He's cruel in a way that condescends to people openly. Lucky anyone talks to him frankly.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 19, 2016, 12:39:15 PM
I'm in. Love with this book. I still hate the mystery woman element. It is really horrible as a plot driving event. Badly contrived. Jane Eyre as a book is rightly revered but the Book of Jane side, an almost religious fervour to the rightness of her personality; should make it almost unrivalled outside of Shakespeare. This silly plot device really grates and undermines what is undeniably excellent. A bad misstep.

I can see that what proceeds has to be driven by some schism but bloody hell find a better way some crack in Jane or Rochester. I scream because I care. There are scenes here that are artful but tangential to the digging at the soul that Jane and Rochester should be engaged in. Gah!!
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 19, 2016, 02:34:04 PM
Details!! Where are you? What are you in love with? Don't leave me hanging! I'm at, "It was now the sweetest hour of the twenty-four: Day its fervid fires had wasted" scene. I keep playing it over and over, because the woman narrating is fantastic; as good as any theatrical, or film adaptation, more so maybe, because none of the words had to be edited.

The Book of Jane. :)  "rightness of her personality." Yes, she's something. I'd like to hear more about which passages these are and also those artful tangential ones... I'm loving this book so much too. I shouldn't have waited so long to revisit it.

You can blame Mary Shelley and Poe for her need to incorporate a little "terror." I've known the story so long, that it doesn't strike me at all that way, or silly. I feel empathy and sadness for Rochester's "error."


I said I was being harsh.

:)

Be harsh, it gets my fervent defending mode into top gear.

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Bronte. She clearly wants Jane to see the other end of that character development of the family. Then she shows what a cool kid Jane is with her reaction. I'm stretching Brontes point. Jane is so capable that she could deal with this family. If she chose. That's how strong Bronte writes her. My real point was YOU Sandy in that situation. You would.  ;D you would find a way.

:))

I want to fight back and say, NO! I wouldn't be so intrusive! ...but if I'm honest I can recall times where I had to speak because certain situations warranted me doing so, otherwise I couldn't live with myself and my candor ruffled some feathers. argh.  I have to add this too, because I have an excuse for not wanting to butt in and also for being vocal!

INFPs do not like conflict, and go to great lengths to avoid it. If they must face it, they will always approach it from the perspective of their feelings. In conflict situations, INFPs place little importance on who is right and who is wrong. They focus on the way that the conflict makes them feel, and indeed don't really care whether or not they're right. They don't want to feel badly. This trait sometimes makes them appear irrational and illogical in conflict situations. On the other hand, INFPs make very good mediators, and are typically good at solving other people's conflicts, because they intuitively understand people's perspectives and feelings, and genuinely want to help them. They are flexible and laid-back, until one of their values is violated. In the face of their value system being threatened, INFPs can become aggressive defenders, fighting passionately for their cause.

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I don't think the gypsy trick would have fooled her for a second. Ingram yes. He's cruel in a way that condescends to people openly. Lucky anyone talks to him frankly.

I think I agree with all of this. :)
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 19, 2016, 11:19:00 PM
I'm past where Jane and Roch are together and just before the Wedding. So Rochesters duplicity over Blanche/Jane is revealed.....but strange.

Her attitude after that actually is consistent with not really wanting to trust herself. She is trying to hold herself reserved from Rochester until they get married. As a piece of agency given to a female character it's great. Rochester has proven himself to be quite an actor so
Jane is guarding herself from falling too hard for a man with deep cracks in his personality. Maybe this is Bronte trying to foretell of the skeleton in the cupboard of Mr Rochestef but I've said what I think of that twist.

I'm on target to finish the book by Aprils end. Your comment about not returning to the book enough. I will definitely want to come back to it. There are sections I'd want to pore over again but there are so many I'll end up reading all of it. It's already a book id consider a favourite now.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 20, 2016, 04:58:21 PM
I'm past where Jane and Roch are together and just before the Wedding. So Rochesters duplicity over Blanche/Jane is revealed.....but strange.

You're getting into the thick of it! There are words spoken, coming up that almost make me gasp, with the fervor, both in revulsion and devotion. Two wildly opposing extremes where the light could not be recognized so acutely, had the darkness not been so absolute. I wish I could articulate this better, but I feel it thoroughly, as I read the passages.

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Her attitude after that actually is consistent with not really wanting to trust herself. She is trying to hold herself reserved from Rochester until they get married. As a piece of agency given to a female character it's great. Rochester has proven himself to be quite an actor so
Jane is guarding herself from falling too hard for a man with deep cracks in his personality. Maybe this is Bronte trying to foretell of the skeleton in the cupboard of Mr Rochester but I've said what I think of that twist.

I had forgotten this little piece of the story and at first I thought, Jane, what are you doing?! Why are you being such a brat?! :)) Then I started humming a song.

Fight, fight, fight it with all of your might
Chances are that some heavenly star-spangled night
We'll find out just as sure as we live
Something's gotta give


She's using the only defense she's got available, against him and herself, and that is to banter! She finally found all that she ever wanted and what was missing in her life. She's a very strong woman to not succumb to it.

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I'm on target to finish the book by Aprils end. Your comment about not returning to the book enough. I will definitely want to come back to it. There are sections I'd want to pore over again but there are so many I'll end up reading all of it. It's already a book id consider a favourite now.

:)

It's difficult to express just how wonderful the book is, so that last sentence is very rewarding to hear. Luckily, the book speaks for itself and needs no help from me! I'm hoping your fondness for the book will also get you past the familial connection twist later on (something that bothers me more than the mystery woman element.).
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 21, 2016, 12:16:21 PM
Today across London, Jane Eyre was read out loud. Radio 4 read Janes description of Rochester at their first meeting. How if Rochester had been perfect in any way then Jane would have found him unattractive since those same qualities don't exist in her. They would "find no purchase" in her. The world would be better for public readings of Jane Eyre. A worldwide tannoy system perhaps.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 21, 2016, 09:17:41 PM
(http://i66.tinypic.com/315zg5j.jpg)
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 24, 2016, 02:01:55 AM
There better be some seriously good writing coming up because this mere silly trivial plot device is spoiling my adoration. Could I just leave it here where Jane leaves too. Writing in genuine irritation. I feel like leaving it here. Bronte can spend a hundred pages masterfully (sorry mistressfully) turning this ship around but hells bells to what end? I am somewhat joking. Somewhat.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 24, 2016, 08:37:55 AM
 :D

She really is wandering in the desert of a plot! But the desert does serve a purpose, so keep plodding! I'm not sure where you are right now, but I just read something that made me laugh and said to myself, "I would so do that!" It has to do with her being candid with St. John about Rosamond. Let me know when you get there.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 24, 2016, 08:41:26 AM
Yeah she's done her cruise missile bit and landed unerringly on St John's doorstep. So she says her names Elliot. Really struggling.

Look at Goodreads synopsis of Jane Eyre. It screams who cares about the plot?
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 24, 2016, 09:04:46 AM
cruise missile! :)) gah! Is there any free will in this world? Are we all just pawns?!

And yes, not only does Jane Eyre "transcend melodrama" it transcends plot!
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 24, 2016, 11:02:17 AM
You really hit on something that applies to the last two posts. If you read this forum like I do you have two posts of yours Sandy together. One about Jane and plot and one about parents and plot. So let's try two birds with one stone.

Bronte crafts this character for 300 pages so that Janes reactions to "happenings" is of no surprise. She responds with immense character. Let's say aliens landed on page 320. Jane would react with character consistent with what Bronte has molded of her. It wouldn't matter what was thrown at Jane would it? She would be Jane. Such momentous bits of plot don't tell you any more about her. They confirm what one already knows. So in that sense so what?

Again if you don't think of Roy or Sarah but you think of them as mum and dad; they are people with little choice. They act as mum and dad to protect their son. The plot only tells you what you already know about mums and dads in general. The small variations about how a parent protects their child which derive from the plot emphasise that a parent has little personal choice. That their personality is subsumed by their responsibility. I think I've spoken about knowing I was doing something during the time my kids were growing up but what I was really doing was being dad. My hands were tied and as long as I was providing, it somewhat mattered little what I did. As long as I did that. So Nichols shows us what a parent does to protect their child in extraordinary circumstances but those circumstances only serve to reflect that role. Not like Jane as a free agent walking away from a child because that child wasn't hers. It was her job not her ultimate responsibility.

Usually in a thriller, character is defined by how a person responds to plot. How calm you are facing a gun or any plot device you want. It happens from page one. Whereas Bronte is such a great writer and can write 300 pages of amazing character definition and events can be subtle or subtly hard and Jane perseveres. So perhaps as a lover of thriller novels I'm seeing a writer turn to plot devices to define character which seems really unnecessary. Back to Roy and Sarah. Their character is defined by how they react to events but not as Roy and Sarah but as mum and dad. Who knows who Roy and Sarah are? That was a different story. You see the "two birds with one stone" nature of plot defining character in these two cases?

So I agree Jane Eyre transcends plot. So why am I gonna read 100 pages of plot devices? You know I started calling it The Book of Jane. It transcends its function as a story. It's truth is more valuable than that. But also Bronte tweaks what a plot device is. She has the gypsy device and the false bride of Ingram device. All prod character from Jane but subtly.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 26, 2016, 12:26:52 AM
Yes, I see! Great insights!  is my short answer.

My longer reply will come tomorrow after I've gotten some sleep. I just read the great passage in the book where St. John gets after her for being more excited about family than money. She is a mystery to him, all right! :)
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 26, 2016, 11:24:20 AM
Let's say aliens landed on page 320. Jane would react with character consistent with what Bronte has molded of her. It wouldn't matter what was thrown at Jane would it? She would be Jane.

:))

Well, she did establish she was one in chapter 2.

[for] Mrs. Reed... It must have been most irksome to find herself bound by a hard-wrung pledge to stand in the stead of a parent to a strange child she could not love, and to see an uncongenial alien permanently intruded on her own family group.

So when they show up on page 320, her natural reply would be, "My people!"

You're so right about Jane and Bronte's character development. Throw anything at her and she's still her. But, she's so multi-faceted that all of these scenes and interactions bring out surprising aspects. I say surprising, but I think I mean more aha moments, like, "of course she would react that way." Extremely enjoyable reading for me.

Or, like you said, "All prod character from Jane but subtly." She has a lifetime worth of fascinated observing. I would have loved to seen her in her travels and how she marveled and described everything. stuff like that. :)

What you've written has me contemplating writing style and with a thriller, the need is for speed, so there's not time for what Bronte has indulged in. Bronte is painting with words and it's not a 8 1/2 by 11, it's a wall, a room even! Such detail and space for scope. I have a favorite painter (I mentioned her a while ago) a mom who painted in her spare time, but she worked large canvases and even rooms, like this one,

(http://i66.tinypic.com/oh4h3a.jpg)


So you have me wondering, which writers could fill spaces like that, if they had the time and inclination to do so and could Bronte write a thriller, condensing all those beautiful, wordy words down?

But, coming back to your question, why keep reading if it is unnecessary to the Book of Jane? Because she has something else she must learn. She finds her kryptonite. Jane breaks. All that has gone before has only forged her and made her stronger, but for one who is naturally inclined to please, she has met her match in a man who's high and exacting expectations make her reach further and further inside herself, looking for a way to live up to them, even knowing she doesn't have it in her to do so. She would have been able to resist, had it not been her ties, her gratitude and his cold strength of will, slowly taking over. He diminishes her by expecting her to "disown half [her] nature, stifle half [her] faculties' and chips away at her confidence, with his continual pointing out of her deficiencies. Added to that is her aching loss of Mr. Rochester and her "cankering... suspense" of worrying about him.

Pray for her. She really needs it now.


:)
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 26, 2016, 12:13:06 PM
But that's my point you already know her character because it's so well written. Other writers need drama to release character. That's unnecessary for bronte. I'll say something silly to make a point. None of this happened. Bronte made it all up. She chose these events for a reason but like you say Jane deals with it for all the reasons we already know she would. No surprises. Almost like a lap of honour after the race is won. Not Book of Jane anymore. More like an appendix.

No again I'm not being clear enough. Trust me about thrillers. The action in thrills is a phantom. It doesn't serve itself. It serves character. Anything could happen but it's how the character responds that is what makes them so readable and why thrillers are fertile ground for series about one character. Closed mouthed types strong silent types. They need the action to make them come alive. The action tho is pure macguffin. They do have time for character development. The entire book is about it. Bronte and JD Macdonald or Hammett achieve the same thing in their books. Rounded characters. How they get there is just different.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 26, 2016, 02:01:37 PM
Wait, none of this happened?!



:)

I know little about thrillers, but I do know McGee and I believe what you say. I hardly remember the action in the two novels I read (except for the two key scenes and they're indelibly with me!), but I do remember his character and his interaction with others. I feel like I know him very well. Yes, that is the sign of a great writer. Hats off to MacDonald!
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 26, 2016, 02:11:40 PM
Gah! I feel bad. I'm not trying to convince you. I think you know me well enough. I just have this horrible so what? feeling and I need to explore the feeling and express it. If a writer is so good at ineffable description why on earth would they be great at exposition. Bless her clunky attempts.

I had the Book of Trav. Now I have the Book of Jane. Philosophical treatises more than novels.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 26, 2016, 09:51:45 PM
Bless her clunky attempts.

:)

Charlotte had a rich inner life, but not much in the way of real world experience, much like Jane Eyre. In fact much of her story it is semi-autobiographical. Lowood was based off of her own schooling, she was small, a governess and was also in love with a married man. I read that she felt "art is most convincing when based on personal experience." The parts that speak the most truth to you, are probably those of Bronte's own experiences and feelings. The rest, she had to pull out of her own imagination and the books that she was exposed to. Yes, bless her clunky attempts! :)

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I had the Book of Trav. Now I have the Book of Jane. Philosophical treatises more than novels.

Two wise and worthy characters to study. :)
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 27, 2016, 03:20:43 PM
I'd love to hear what you think of this. At the moment Jane us on the point of agreeing to the priests wishes, he asks her to seek spiritual guidance but it isn't God she either hears or listens to. It old Eddie. She even calls it supernatural as in ungodly. God or faith is being questioned fairly rigorously here. Even though St John says that she will be following gods will in going into missionary work, he puts his reputation first because he insists they must marry. Surely the scandal pales before gods work? He is putting his comfort first surely. There's a sense of hypocrisy in the entire exercise. He says he isn't upset but he looks upset. Lying to himself but in a way that undermines his own resolute faith and purpose.

How do you feel? The general sense of faith is turned into degrees of faith and how far one sacrifices oneself to gods work. Yet it can't escape personal needs. It's a subtle knife. It slips in unnoticed but I feel like the message is clear. You can't help putting yourself first.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 27, 2016, 11:49:50 PM
42



(This is really big, verbALs. Big as anything I know. I need some time to gather my thoughts, but I will say as a place marker - It is an evil man, who will say to a woman, "You were formed for labor, not for love." especially an infp, who's core is love.  :'(  And it is most evil to selfishly use God against another, especially someone who will take it to heart and feel great depths of guilt.)


I'm very interested in your thoughts on this too. I just went through these passages today and could hardly breathe.

Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 28, 2016, 12:03:41 AM
I can see that for Jane, with her own fully formed set of rules, to fall into his situation is a beautiful way for Bronte to examine religion or religious authority in depth (again a better plot device than tripping over on the doorstep might have eased my Hammett-trained sensibilities  ;D). I can see that for the book to form this complete character and then have her challenged in this way shows Bronte maximising how she uses her character. A whole book Jane 2? I've seen a lot of other authors have written Jane stories. Have you read any others? The Jane Industry was discussed on Woman's Hour recently appropriately.

I shouldn't add to the quandary but at some point a spiritual person is asked to stop asking difficult questions and exhibit some faith but I can see how that could be used by others. I just replied to noff's fallacies post on that point. In this case there is an ultimate authority and you show how deep your faith is by how little you question them. I'm not arguing against faith because I admire its positive qualities too much. However Bronte really is putting faiths feet to the fire. Artfully she exhibits piety by Janes response to being asked to sacrifice her life in India yet she balances it with the logic of the personal situation. If Jane simply haves herself up she wouldn't be Jane at all and Bronte has spent a whole book examining how a person operates selflessly and selfishly without being a walking contradiction. And this is Janes ultimate test.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 28, 2016, 11:42:57 PM
I'd love to hear what you think of this. At the moment Jane us on the point of agreeing to the priests wishes, he asks her to seek spiritual guidance but it isn't God she either hears or listens to. It old Eddie. She even calls it supernatural as in ungodly. God or faith is being questioned fairly rigorously here.

I'm going to have to break this up into little pieces to keep it all straight in my head. Like smirnoff said, I am hamster, I nibble. :)

It is God she hears, in a way. She is just about to sacrifice everything, being persuaded so strongly by St. John and prays for help,

"Show me, show me the path!" I entreated of Heaven... My heart beat fast and thick: I heard its throb. Suddenly it stood still to an inexpressible feeling that thrilled it through... I heard a voice somewhere cry "Jane! Jane! Jane!"--nothing more.

Jane gets her answer. She has throughout the book, worked through her intuition, her listening quietly and intently to know what to do in certain situations. It's part of her. Conversely, she can't feel anything moving her towards missionary life, "my heart is mute."

"But my powers--where are they for this undertaking? I do not feel them. Nothing speaks or stirs in me while you talk. I am sensible of no light kindling--no life quickening--no voice counselling or cheering. Oh, I wish I could make you see how much my mind is at this moment like a rayless dungeon, with one shrinking fear fettered in its depths--the fear of being persuaded by you to attempt what I cannot accomplish!"

Her intuition is telling her no and it is also telling her St. John is powerful and will have influence on her. His loud voice will eventually drown out her own inner small one. She knows it.

Call it intuition, inspiration, supernatural, it's all God to her. He is guiding her through these conduits. So I don't see it as God or faith being questioned, I see it as strict, exacting, patriarchal dogma being questioned. Someone who uses God as a way to wield power is absolutely wrong and is not of God.

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Even though St John says that she will be following gods will in going into missionary work, he puts his reputation first because he insists they must marry. Surely the scandal pales before gods work? He is putting his comfort first surely. There's a sense of hypocrisy in the entire exercise. He says he isn't upset but he looks upset. Lying to himself but in a way that undermines his own resolute faith and purpose.

Jane is merciful to St. John. She is able to separate the mortal man, from the parts of him, who are truly devoted to God. She forgives the one and honors the other. She is much more merciful than I. Yes, he is a walking contradiction. His hypocrisy makes me livid. He says he is humble, but then decrees that it's his job to speak for God in others lives. He has no humility. He deems himself God's mouthpiece. He confuses self righteousness for devotion and he sees his mean spirited manipulations as "tools" to do God's work. It's disgusting. 

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How do you feel?

I feel disgusted. :D

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The general sense of faith is turned into degrees of faith and how far one sacrifices oneself to gods work. Yet it can't escape personal needs. It's a subtle knife. It slips in unnoticed but I feel like the message is clear. You can't help putting yourself first.

Yes, we do put ourselves first. St. John, with all his talk of sacrifice, does everything for himself. He even gives himself away with an aside, "I want, I want!" He wants to be lifted up and glorified for his work. He doesn't want to sit in a small parish in the middle of the moors, but wants to rule and mold the poor in far flung regions, his own "godly" kingdom, where he has power and dominion. And then, is fully expecting to be showered with glory after this life. If that isn't selfish, I don't know what is.

Jane wishes to be happy, but she has been dealt a blow. The greatest happiness she ever knew was taken from her, so she is finding her way to happiness by small means, by always looking for that inspiration to guide her. She believes God wants her to be happy, so she is pursuing it, by listening, by caring for others and by using her talents and natural affinities to move forward. She believes that God knows what's best and will take care of her needs. I think the message is, put God first. but that's just me. :)



I can see that for Jane, with her own fully formed set of rules, to fall into his situation is a beautiful way for Bronte to examine religion or religious authority in depth (again a better plot device than tripping over on the doorstep might have eased my Hammett-trained sensibilities  ;D).

:)) I hear you!

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I can see that for the book to form this complete character and then have her challenged in this way shows Bronte maximising how she uses her character. A whole book Jane 2? I've seen a lot of other authors have written Jane stories. Have you read any others? The Jane Industry was discussed on Woman's Hour recently appropriately.

I don't know anything of this! Do tell!

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I shouldn't add to the quandary but at some point a spiritual person is asked to stop asking difficult questions and exhibit some faith but I can see how that could be used by others. I just replied to noff's fallacies post on that point. In this case there is an ultimate authority and you show how deep your faith is by how little you question them.

I believe faith is stepping out, but I also believe spirituality is about always asking questions. Blind faith is not growth, it's stagnation and not using "the brains that God gave us." :) So, I'm not sure of the quandary. Jane chose her path, because she was inspired to do so. She didn't blindly follow someone else's "God sanctioned" path that was chosen for her. I'm not sure I addressed all that you are saying in that paragraph.

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I'm not arguing against faith because I admire its positive qualities too much. However Bronte really is putting faiths feet to the fire. Artfully she exhibits piety by Janes response to being asked to sacrifice her life in India yet she balances it with the logic of the personal situation. If Jane simply haves herself up she wouldn't be Jane at all and Bronte has spent a whole book examining how a person operates selflessly and selfishly without being a walking contradiction. And this is Janes ultimate test.

I think walking away from Rochester was Jane's ultimate test, but this one is a doozy! Both broke her down, to see if she could rebuild and find herself again.

How do any of us operate with both selflessness and self interest, without being a walking contradiction? This is a question that I live with daily. Jane seems to have found the way. Bless her!
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on April 29, 2016, 12:13:23 AM
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So I don't see it as God or faith being questioned, I see it as strict, exacting, patriarchal dogma being questioned. Someone who uses God as a way to wield power is absolutely wrong and is not of God.

Good. Very clear. It's very clear in the book where his deficiencies lie without losing any of the power of the confrontation.

I think when the anniversary was discussed on that Radio 4 programme they also looked at some of the Jane Eyre related stories. Either on the same day or around that time. I don't know what depth they went into it to.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 29, 2016, 08:05:55 AM
Such an intriguing path to follow down. I'll look into it. Thanks for letting me follow along on your own Jane Eyre Journey! I have had a marvelous time! :)
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on April 29, 2016, 08:18:28 AM
Jane Eyre- Charlotte Brontė

"Whatever happened to all our heroes?
All those Shakespeare-os"
- The Stranglers

A profound experience to read this with a devotee of the book, here (http://www.filmspotting.net/forum/index.php?topic=13768.msg832727#msg832727). It is a book that illicits devotion. I am struck by the rigour of the Victorian mind, as if they lived with an image of themselves bestriding continents, and wished to live up to the picture. The grand houses of England have high ceilings that suggest that these were giants physically as well. Yet that stereotype of a detachment from emotion isn't borne out by Brontė's surgically precise dissection of the Victorian mind. I see little separating her understanding of man or woman, but Brontė finds her wings as Jane flies psychologically. Some of the tests that the author assigns Jane, an assault course on her character, feel unnaturally tough, and only Jane could survive it. Perhaps only the fully formed Jane-entity could hold her place in a conversation with the supernormal intelligence of the missionary Rivers, as the book proceeds. So Brontė shunts her unskilfully into his presence. That direct abutment with his brilliant mind situates Jane in a harsh religious light, and her reactions are amazing to read. By then this character has attained four or five dimensions. Jane Eyre has to be the marque against which character, created in writing, is measured as an exemplar. As long as the caveat applies that nobody could be expected to energise such a perfect Frankenstein, such a monstrous streamlining. Putting the awe in awesome.

One book can realign one's entire ideas about storytelling and character development, but that would have to be one very charming book, which Jane Eyre certainly is. It's charms are woollen. Course and itchy initially and uncomfortable; proceeding to warm and envelope you. As the books continues, Jane is consistent and resolute, yet Brontė always moves this startling entity onward, perhaps explaining why the challenges have to become mountainous given how the hillocks of normal life lose their power to challenge Jane. I am glad to have met this book at this crossroads, where I feel I can fully appreciate it's power. For a young female reader to fall under its influence has to be empowering. In that sense as a feminist tract, it seems essential. The world may continue to play a biased gender hand, but women will always have Jane to have and hold while the world slowly catches up with what Brontė understood decades earlier. I feel it is that important a work of fiction. Men are tripping over their heroes in any direction they want to go in life. Heroines have to be sought with a little more effort. So Jane Eyre should be cherished as a person and as a novel. By everyone. There are simply has to be a more special place in a lady's heart for Jane.

This needs to have its home be right here! An addendum to end all addendums! Such insights, such understanding. Thank you for sharing what this book has shown you!

I don't know who loves Jane more now, you or I. I'll have to arm wrestle you for that coveted spot! Left handed, of course. :)
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on May 01, 2016, 03:59:15 AM
I have this idea that St John will get to his destination, someone will open up the gate and say "Rivers....you have been a...very...NAUGHTY....BOY!" :o

The Sound and the Fury looks like a very thin book, now. ;D
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on May 05, 2016, 01:56:24 PM
I have this idea that St John will get to his destination, someone will open up the gate and say "Rivers....you have been a...very...NAUGHTY....BOY!" :o

:))

I missed this!

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The Sound and the Fury looks like a very thin book, now. ;D

How's this working out?
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on May 05, 2016, 01:59:38 PM
A slow start with a difficult perspective but probably not a quarter the size of Jane.

Oh yeah today on Radio 4 (In Our Time I think) they had a discussion show on Tess of the D'Urbervilles. It was a very good show (available on podcast). Seems to be a reevaluation of Tess going on. You've read it?
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on May 05, 2016, 02:27:41 PM
I haven't, nor have I seen the movie. Have you?
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on May 05, 2016, 02:42:21 PM
Yes but at school when we read it. They didn't show us films unless they were saucy or bloody like MacBeth (Polanski again) and Jaws. I should read it again. It's a very fine book I remember just a bit lost on a teenage kid.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on May 23, 2016, 12:09:46 PM
Addendum

(http://i66.tinypic.com/2zsraqd.png)(http://i64.tinypic.com/293zzoj.png)
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: colonel_mexico on May 23, 2016, 12:13:52 PM
I'm curious about Pip's financial situation, seems like his is the most precarious position, but I'm unfamiliar with the tax laws and whether or not that counts as untaxed income?  The what-if would be could Magwitch claim Pip as an adopted son? Lol this is hilarious.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on May 23, 2016, 03:08:25 PM
 :D

Addendum indeed!

Had to investigate. The article title is, "Reader, I married him, but Osborne clobbered me for £600,000."

I'm afraid I can't open the rest of the article for Pip's info, without a subscription, but my belief is Jaggers has no paper trail for him, so Pip might be under the tax radar. :)
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on August 26, 2016, 07:45:00 AM
They had a longer discussion of Wide Sargasso Sea by Jean Rhys on Radio 4 this morning. About how badly Mrs Rochester was by a dastardly Rochester and how easily Jane believes what she is told because she's prejudiced against foreigners! ;D Quite a spirited defence.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on August 26, 2016, 07:57:53 AM
 :o

Have they never read the book?

Don't they have anything better to do with their time? I would think this was all in jest, but I have the feeling they are quite serious. Which is it, do you think?
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on August 26, 2016, 09:25:47 AM
They are discussing Rhys' book taking Mrs Rochesters pov as an abused wife.

They were interested in how the second pov changes the original book.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on August 26, 2016, 10:47:58 AM
Yes, I remember the book. I was just wondering if they were seriously questioning Bronte's characters, or if they could see that Rhys had an axe to grind and chose to ignore aspects of Jane Eyre, one being she's an excellent judge of character throughout the book.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on August 26, 2016, 11:01:30 AM
Why would you think Rhys would have an axe to grind. I think that idea of another point of view is interesting and the discussion certainly was. Rochester himself isn't a very nice man is he? I think the prevailing argument is that Jane is seeing more of him, beyond the shell exterior but his actions don't speak well of him. That extends to pretending to marry someone else. It's a horrible trick. Acoupleof the contributors came to Jane Eyre after they read WSS. So they contrasted with the Jane firsters.

It was on Woman's Hour today. Maybe you can find it to listen to it.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on August 26, 2016, 11:52:25 AM
I just listened to it and it was akin to gouging my eyes out. ;) Here's the thing. Jane Eyre is a creation of a woman who built these characters and meticulously walked us through their story and explained very clearly who they are and why they do what they do. She loved these people and their strengths and weaknesses and so do I.

If Rhys wants to change the characters in very fundamental ways to fit her need to insert her own demons into the story, then so be it, but I'm not interested in her take, when she's not interested in Bronte's. These are Bronte's characters. Rhys should make her own.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on August 26, 2016, 12:18:51 PM
Yes she sounded like she had her own demons didn't she? I haven't read WSS so I can't really comment on whether she loves Jane Eyre or not. I think it's such a tremendous story personally I would be stunned myself if the point of the exercise was to tear it down.

You know I have serious problems with that entire plot line. Instead of just not including it all and feeling like it wouldn't leave an appreciable hole; this feels like an attempt to fill a hole. Because it's unusual in a book of such character depth to leave one person so much a demon. So in terms of demonising Bronte does that herself with Mrs Rochester.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on August 26, 2016, 01:03:25 PM
...I would be stunned myself if the point of the exercise was to tear it down.

Yes, that's how I feel about the book, like she had to destroy something in an attempt to make sense of her own stuff.

Quote
You know I have serious problems with that entire plot line. Instead of just not including it all and feeling like it wouldn't leave an appreciable hole; this feels like an attempt to fill a hole. Because it's unusual in a book of such character depth to leave one person so much a demon. So in terms of demonising Bronte does that herself with Mrs Rochester.

I see it as the one, two punch of the Gothic climate of literature of the day (think Zombies today. :) ) and the need to keep the protagonists apart, so she could explore their characters and give them that "trial by fire", to forge a bond so strong, nothing could part them in the end (borrowing smirnoff's metaphor :) ).

The ways he tried to help Mrs. Rochester, showed Mr. Rochester's compassion for her and pity for her predicament. So she's not a monster, as much as she's a victim of her inherited madness.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on August 26, 2016, 01:48:17 PM
I didn't realise you read it.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on August 26, 2016, 06:41:41 PM
I haven't read the book, just pages of excerpts, concentrating on Rochester's words and actions. I think what bugs me the most is when people say they'll never look at Rochester the same again. Really? They're so easily swayed by someone else's interpretation of a character, that they forget what they learn about him in Jane Eyre? And do  they forget that the book ends 10 years after Jane's marriage to him and that all the qualities she saw in him (as well as the ones buried down inside), were real and actualized? And, if he really did want to rid himself of Bertha, as WSS likes to point out, then why keep her in the attic? He could have committed her long ago. His reasons for keeping her there, were compassionate ones. From what I've read of WSS, the narrative is interesting with her decent into madness amidst cultural and gender conflict, but I don't like that it's taken as truth over Bronte's story... Defaming someone else's created character rubs me the wrong way.
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: verbALs on August 27, 2016, 01:32:34 AM
Then the first thing to say is that both are stories. Only stories. There is no truth to defame. Is there?

Rochester is clearly a quite horrible man and seeing him as he truly is, which might be Jane's special gift, doesn't change his appearance to the world in general. So when I say that, what is your reaction? I'm entitled to feel that way aren't I? Take one step back and colonialists in all parts of the worlds were exploiters. None of it is romantic is it? The reasons Rochester goes to make his fortune aren't especially galant ones if I remember at all correctly.

As for the book I've expressed both admiration; now a favourite book, and real frustrated amusement at how poor the lady in the attic plot is. I can imagine more easily that Bronte wrote a much longer and better sequence here to give the lady a story but that this would be too much of a tangent. Hence the hole. Now these are all opinions of mine, which I'm sure you see I'm entitled to. I'm not defaming the book am I? Goodreads has over 33,000 (out of 1.5 million) 1 star reviews. The first one described it as "507 pages of needlepoint"!  ;D that's not defamatory either. It is funny though and I can love Jane Eyre and get the joke too.  ;D

Some of those ladies came to Jane Eyre via WSS. They may have preferred WSS and they may have done so because they read it first. Still it meant more people found Jane Eyre as a result. It didn't put them off nor make a derisory mess of their opinion of JE. Surely that proves the other books worth?
Title: Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
Post by: Sandy on August 27, 2016, 09:55:07 AM
Then the first thing to say is that both are stories. Only stories. There is no truth to defame. Is there?

no

Quote
Rochester is clearly a quite horrible man and seeing him as he truly is, which might be Jane's special gift, doesn't change his appearance to the world in general. So when I say that, what is your reaction? I'm entitled to feel that way aren't I? Take one step back and colonialists in all parts of the worlds were exploiters. None of it is romantic is it? The reasons Rochester goes to make his fortune aren't especially galant ones if I remember at all correctly.

He goes there, because his father told him to. According to Bronte's writings, Rochester's horribleness was because life had dealt him a blow, one that devastated him and left him without hope.

Yes, your feelings are your own. I don't wish to change them.

Quote
As for the book I've expressed both admiration; now a favourite book, and real frustrated amusement at how poor the lady in the attic plot is. I can imagine more easily that Bronte wrote a much longer and better sequence here to give the lady a story but that this would be too much of a tangent. Hence the hole. Now these are all opinions of mine, which I'm sure you see I'm entitled to. I'm not defaming the book am I? Goodreads has over 33,000 (out of 1.5 million) 1 star reviews. The first one described it as "507 pages of needlepoint"!  ;D that's not defamatory either. It is funny though and I can love Jane Eyre and get the joke too.  ;D

Me too :)

Quote
Some of those ladies came to Jane Eyre via WSS. They may have preferred WSS and they may have done so because they read it first. Still it meant more people found Jane Eyre as a result. It didn't put them off nor make a derisory mess of their opinion of JE. Surely that proves the other books worth?

Rhys has the right to write what she wants and people have the right to like her book or not, or read it, or not. If people enjoy her work and/or find it compelling, then it has worth to them.