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Filmspotting Message Boards => Movie Talk (Spoiler Edition) => Topic started by: FLYmeatwad on December 14, 2017, 10:24:15 PM

Title: The Last Jedi
Post by: FLYmeatwad on December 14, 2017, 10:24:15 PM
Just a quick thought I couldn't put in my Lettrboxd review or anywhere else.

Weird that this echoes Harry Potter so much in the midsection. I almost thought that we were getting a Rey/Ren and Harry/Voldemort thing going on with those connection scenes (which don't entirely add up to me, since it feels like Rey is on Luke's planet for way longer than that space battle is going on, but I'm sure I'm just wrong), plus that whole Mirror of Erised part in there too. Kylo's scars too?

Anyway, I do like the way that keeping pretty much everything happening in the course of 24 hours did things structurally to maintain the tension on a larger scale, it's a bigger risk than I was expecting the film to take, tbh, and Johnson does handle it really well.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on December 14, 2017, 10:52:30 PM
I'm super happy they didn't do something cheap with either Snoke or Rey in terms of their origin. That was my biggest fear going into this movie.

I'll probably end up seeing it another time or two in the near future with friends so I'm not going to say much more than that about the film right now.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: FLYmeatwad on December 14, 2017, 11:04:44 PM
I'm super happy they didn't do something cheap with either Snoke or Rey in terms of their origin. That was my biggest fear going into this movie.

Yeah, I was worried about that too, especially since I've thought since the first one that Rey and Kylo were probably just brother and sister. I still kind of think that and that he was just lying to her, but who knows. Snoke was, when I saw the first one, my second biggest problem with it next to how hard it leaned in to calling back to A New Hope and pandering to the original films. And here he's still not perfected, I'm still not sure where or how he rose to power, but making him a more physical presence helped a lot. Still not sure he works as a villain, but he's also more of an item to push forward Ren's story, and as that he does work. Still unsure how I feel about the look of him, though it's cool seeing the extremes of how the dark side warps you, like in KotOR and stuff.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: aewade90 on December 15, 2017, 04:05:11 AM
As much as the entire casino planet was absolutely worthless padding, and the space-superman being incredibly silly, the hyperspace attack on Snoke's ship was jaw-dropping. I wasn't expecting Akira to be a touchstone of a 2017 Star Wars movie, but here we are.

It's very solid, and makes me kind of sad that they're going back to JJ for IX - however thankful I am for Trevorrow not being a part of it, TLJ is a great example of why Star Wars shouldn't play it safe.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: pixote on December 15, 2017, 04:41:34 AM
Weird that this echoes Harry Potter so much in the midsection.

Ha, yeah. I thought the last shot should have faded to a title that read, "And that's how quidditch was born."

As much as the entire casino planet was absolutely worthless padding ...

The very first shot of the casino literally made me say to myself, "I could walk out now without regret."

the hyperspace attack on Snoke's ship was jaw-dropping

I found it telling that the best moment in the film was when they shut off the soundtrack.

Worst moment in the film: Fighting for what you love. I wish Finn had been ripped to shreds in the crash and Rose walked away without a scratch but in tears, with Leia crying after her, "What were in thinking?!?" and Rose whispering, "I wasn't thinking. I was feeling."

The Fozzie Bear cameo was weird. It's too bad they couldn't get Yoda.

pixote
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: pixote on December 15, 2017, 05:09:47 PM
Can someone remind me of the significance of Captain Phasma? Her first appearance earned scattered applause in my theater, and I felt left out. And then nothing she did thereafter seemed to retroactively justify that applause.

pixote
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on December 15, 2017, 05:14:23 PM
She's played by a GoT star and GoT people have a cultlike love of GoT actors.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: pixote on December 15, 2017, 05:23:59 PM
She's played by a GoT star and GoT people have a cultlike love of GoT actors.

Ah, thanks. That makes sense.

pixote
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Solid Blake on December 15, 2017, 06:08:54 PM
“Let the past die. Kill it.” -Kylo Ren

... also Rian Johnson’s reaction to the criticism that The Force Awakens was just A Newer New Hope. I really enjoyed the direction this trilogy is taking. Just like Abrams’ film—I have some issues with some plot/pacing hiccups, however, this a thousand times more interesting than most popcorn flicks currently in rotation (looking at you, Marvel).
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: 1SO on December 15, 2017, 08:00:55 PM
Weird that this echoes Harry Potter so much in the midsection. I almost thought that we were getting a Rey/Ren and Harry/Voldemort thing going on with those connection scenes (which don't entirely add up to me, since it feels like Rey is on Luke's planet for way longer than that space battle is going on, but I'm sure I'm just wrong), plus that whole Mirror of Erised part in there too. Kylo's scars too?
I thought there was a tone close to Harry Potter too. I felt it in the casino sequence where the Fantastic Beasts take a ride. I know this section is going to be a problem for many, but I thought it was better handled than the big monster detour in Force Awakens. I really liked the creature design all around - very Miyazaki - and this is where we meet Benecio del Toro's unusual character, who I thought walked a line between good and evil that's much more interesting than Domhnall Gleeson banging his one-note.

I understand there are lots of people with Ewok/Jar Jar trauma and any time Star Wars gets cute they instantly react in a negative way. I imagine many hated it when BB-8 appeared in the two-legged walker, and that's fine. Wasn't my favorite moment either, but I accept that as part of the series desire to appeal to all ages. Where it doesn't work are the kids who take care of the horse beasts and appear at the end. It took me awhile to accept the scenes were meant to show the spirit of the rebellion still burning, but it looks like a commercial pandering to children to live the adventure by... buying a lot of merchandise.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: FLYmeatwad on December 15, 2017, 09:26:04 PM
Are all the kids force sensitive at the end? Obviously the last one is, but they were also all recreating the Luke showdown, right? I'm not sure how that would have spread since just a small group of rebels were there, but maybe a lot of time had passed or something and people are just looking for hope, so, like, I can get why they'd be willing to just believe something. I'm not sure.

The casino part I didn't mind a ton, because it did give a glimpse in to something so different and contextualized the world, but even at a certain point I figure I was more interested in Hogsmeade and Hogwarts than what Harry and friends were up to, so I'll chalk that up to personal preference and I know it's at odds (though purposefully so) with the majority of the film.

Del Toro I'm not entirely sold on, but he was just kind of inserted to echo Lando that I was whatever about it, and while I didn't like him much in the first one I really liked Gleeson's one-note here. BB-8 I didn't like in the first film, didn't like him here either. Porgs I don't like either.

Forgot about the superman part, that was really silly.

The reluctance to kill off a major character was also disappointing, really would have liked to see pix's idea happen. It just feels like the plot armor is just so thick even on the tangential main characters that it almost bleeds over to the ones by their side too as being non-expendable, which does cut a bit of heft from a lot of the action, both in the moment and after the film. But I guess that's what makes Snoke's death so much more cutting, so maybe I'm just wrong.

Phasma was a poorly developed inconsequential character in the first one, and is only slightly more than that here. I remembered seeing Phasma Funko Pops and other merchandise before TFA and assumed she'd be a big deal. Didn't even realize who she was until near the end of that film. Would not be surprised to see her return in Episode IX either.

I like the Ewoks and Jar Jar.

Did I miss the part where Del Toro gave Rose the necklace back? I thought it was odd that she was wearing it when fleeing the ship and at the rebel hideout, though I could have just forgotten about it.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: 1SO on December 15, 2017, 09:29:07 PM
I'm super happy they didn't do something cheap with either Snoke or Rey in terms of their origin. That was my biggest fear going into this movie.
It's funny how they kept bringing up and dancing around Rey's parents like there's a draft where we learn Snoke is Rey's father or at one point it looks like they're building to Kylo being Rey's father somehow. With Force Awakens there was too much conversation about how closely it resembled A New Hope and I think a parental reveal like that would've single-handedly made this an Empire clone.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: pixote on December 15, 2017, 09:31:20 PM
Did I miss the part where Del Toro gave Rose the necklace back?

He returns it immediately after touting its conductive capabilities.

pixote
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: FLYmeatwad on December 15, 2017, 09:34:52 PM
I'm super happy they didn't do something cheap with either Snoke or Rey in terms of their origin. That was my biggest fear going into this movie.
It's funny how they kept bringing up and dancing around Rey's parents like there's a draft where we learn Snoke is Rey's father or at one point it looks like they're building to Kylo being Rey's father somehow. With Force Awakens there was too much conversation about how closely it resembled A New Hope and I think a parental reveal like that would've single-handedly made this an Empire clone.

Haha, I almost thought they were going to reveal that Kylo was Rey's dad too, still really thought it was building to them being siblings, but I guess I was wrong. Or he's just lying. It doesn't matter though, I guess, especially since it would have been a more resonant reveal if they sacked up and had Kylo watch Leia actually die when the TIEs attacked her rather than bringing her back.

Did I miss the part where Del Toro gave Rose the necklace back?

He returns it immediately after touting its conductive capabilities.

pixote

Thanks, that's what I figured, but I must have missed it. My eye was being weird for a few minutes a little later in the film, should have given it more time between work finishing and going to see it tbh, I did a lot of looking at a screen on not enough sleep all day.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: 1SO on December 15, 2017, 09:40:11 PM
Can someone remind me of the significance of Captain Phasma? Her first appearance earned scattered applause in my theater, and I felt left out. And then nothing she did thereafter seemed to retroactively justify that applause.

pixote
The disproportionate amount of importance placed on Phasma compared to what she actually does is like Boba Fett all over again. I can't believe this is a deliberate choice, but it's so similar. I expect there's a Phasma movie in the planning stages.

I like how the film ignores and never mentions that awkward bit in Force Awakens where C-3PO has a red arm. People were groaning at the inevitable backstory, but instead the series acts like that never happened.

Snoke's throne room was a fine example at the power of minimalism. That set and Luke in front of the cliff doors at the end reminded me of Akira Kurosawa, and I have to think that was deliberate.

Also in the throne move were a couple of new Jedi lightsaber tricks that were downright awesome. Just feel that needs to be mentioned. Also the low wide angle on Finn when or right after he says "Rebel scum" could be a painting.

I'll be seeing the movie again, but it's unclear to me who exactly got the rebels caught on Snoke's ship. It looks like the black BB unit sees BB-8 under the cover and sounds the alarm, but the next scene shows that Benecio sold them out. During that scene, Benecio shoots a look like it's part of his plan to get them off the ship, but then he just exits.

Shirtless Kylo is the most blatant bit of beef/cheesecake since that blonde in Star Trek Into Darkness.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: pixote on December 15, 2017, 09:50:41 PM
I read a bunch of reviews on Letterboxd today. This (https://letterboxd.com/rbench/film/star-wars-the-last-jedi/) was my favorite.

pixote
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: FLYmeatwad on December 15, 2017, 10:29:11 PM
I'll be seeing the movie again, but it's unclear to me who exactly got the rebels caught on Snoke's ship. It looks like the black BB unit sees BB-8 under the cover and sounds the alarm, but the next scene shows that Benecio sold them out. During that scene, Benecio shoots a look like it's part of his plan to get them off the ship, but then he just exits.

I think he said that after being captured he cut a deal, I think the selling out happened after the evil BB caught them.

Good mention about the throne room, forgot to mention that, thought it looked really amazing in there.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: aewade90 on December 16, 2017, 01:16:55 AM
I read a bunch of reviews on Letterboxd today. This (https://letterboxd.com/rbench/film/star-wars-the-last-jedi/) was my favorite.

pixote

I read one on there today about how it tries too hard to be about Trump because the word RESISTANCE is capitalised in the opening crawl. While the political overtones have never been especially deep in Star Wars, it was amusing to see them try to connect the dots about how their "favourite piece of sci-fi escapism with no real world parables" is suddenly about the "leader of the free world", considering Lucas has always been a pretty well known for left leaning views (the guy bought huge tracts of land to develop low-income housing because the rich people complained about the possibility of it, if I recall), and A New Hope's portrayal of oppressive fascism is hardly subtle.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Solid Blake on December 16, 2017, 05:06:14 AM
Now that I’ve slept on it:

The Highs:
-Cinematography/Inventive Shots
-New Creatures (PORGS!)
-Comedy that was mostly hit over miss
-Rey+Kylo Connection
-Snoke’s Death and Red Room Showdown
-Rose
-Hyperspace Punch!
-The caretakers on Luke’s Island
-Force Luke
-Benicio del Toro
-Trash Can BB-8
-Crait’s world design
-Rey’s family just being junkers and the fact that even stable boys can use the force. Looking forward to a hard jump 10 years later kind of thing for the next film, vs. a 48 hour condensed plot after TFA.
-Sea Cow Milk

The Lows:
-They killed off Ackbar... OFF SCREEN!
-Maz Kanata Skype call felt super cheesy
-Space Dern vs. Poe subplot
-Fathiers CGI escape
-General Hux still Sux
-Leia in Spaaaaace (Superman scene)
-Finn/Poe/Rey separated most of the movie
-I had a crush on that A-Wing pilot “Tallie” and Kylo had to blow her fine ass up.
-Pacing issues hampered my experience, but I might like it more on a second viewing
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on December 16, 2017, 08:08:33 AM
Now that I'm a couple of days away from the film, the big thing that rubs me the wrong way is the humor. It felt like some Disney exec read the scrip and said "this film needs more humor, like Guardians of the Galaxy. Make sure there's a joke every five minutes." So many moments could have just been played straight but they had to go for a gag that felt like it was winking at the audience or deliberately subverting expectations instead of simply being about the characters and their interactions.

Maybe it's just me becoming a curmudgeon, but I'm starting to get sick of how jokey every blockbuster is now. Now I really like the GotG films, but I think they find a good balance between the humor and the dramatic moments and I don't think this film finds that balance. I still laugh a lot, but it sucks that moments like Rey freaking out and shooting at Kylo when they can see each other and blasting a hole in the wall ends up immediately removing the tension by having a joke right after. It's a tonal mess.

That being said, I love so many of the ideas and themes Rian teased out of this universe. It feels heavily inspired by KotOR II, which is my favorite piece of Star Wars fiction. I think he recontextualizes jedi morality for to fit the morally gray space that exists in post WWII wars. I really like that and I know Rogue One already did this, but I actually care about the characters and the story beats here.

I'll probably end up seeing it another time or two with friends but I can't help but wonder how much more dramatic the film would be if you cut out about 70% of the jokes.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: 1SO on December 16, 2017, 08:17:53 AM
I think he said that after being captured he cut a deal, I think the selling out happened after the evil BB caught them.
What deal? They were all captured, what could he have to offer?


The Highs:
-Sea Cow Milk
Agree about the Highs, but this one I've read as a low for many. Just shows that people have very strong views about what they do and don't want to see in a Star Wars film.

The Lows:
-Maz Kanata Skype call felt super cheesy
Yeah. This was the moment that most felt like another movie was being set up.

-Space Dern vs. Poe subplot
I kept waiting for Dern to be revealed as "the string". Did I miss how the Empire was able to follow the rebellion through hyperspace?

-Leia in Spaaaaace (Superman scene)
Sadly, because of this, I wondered why they didn't just make that explosion Carrie Fisher's final moment.

-Finn/Poe/Rey separated most of the movie
Yes, but I enjoyed each of their individual adventures.

I would add the first two actors that speak. Their dialogue isn't natural, but their performances only highlight that. It's like the film started with two friends of the director.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Junior on December 16, 2017, 03:41:22 PM
A Top 100 movie. Be back later (tomorrow?) with more. The first truly great Star Wars movie.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: 1SO on December 16, 2017, 04:46:20 PM
1SO is relieved.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: aewade90 on December 16, 2017, 05:31:14 PM
I think he said that after being captured he cut a deal, I think the selling out happened after the evil BB caught them.
What deal? They were all captured, what could he have to offer?

He tells them about the evacuating (shieldless) ships, because Finn and Rose talked about it with Poe on the comms right in front of him.

-Leia in Spaaaaace (Superman scene)
Sadly, because of this, I wondered why they didn't just make that explosion Carrie Fisher's final moment.[/quote]

Part of me admires that they didn't do a swift rewrite and stuck to their script, but if the superman moment was in the script from day-dot how in the everliving CINECAST! did that get through rewrites and committees because it's so terrible
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: FLYmeatwad on December 16, 2017, 05:32:28 PM
What deal? They were all captured, what could he have to offer?

He let them know about the plan to unload all the rebels to the abandoned planet, that's what Gleeson seemed to say, anyway. I think that's how they knew that they needed to divert attention away from the main ship and look at the transporters. Del Toro told them about that.

I've long held that the Guardians films did more harm than good for the MCU, even though I've still liked a good number of post GotG ones, but it wasn't until T:R that someone could finally do something worthwhile with the Guariansification of the MCU, good point about the humor here, even if I'm with Blake and think it hit more than it missed.

Also, keep forgetting to mention, I wonder if there's a way to apply a reverse Bechdel test to Finn. Is there a scene in the film where he has a conversation and is not talking about Rey?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Junior on December 16, 2017, 08:11:18 PM
Isn't Finn's arc going from caring only about Rey to caring about the Rebellion?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: pixote on December 16, 2017, 11:29:18 PM
Ah, I see, so I'm Luke Skywalker here, alone on an island, disenchanted and hopeless. And the rest of you are film lovers of the first order.

pixote
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on December 17, 2017, 06:17:04 AM
*coughs (http://forum.filmspotting.net/index.php?topic=14624.msg881384#msg881384)*

I will reserve final judgment after a couple of rewatches, but I'm not nearly as won over as most people posting here. If I gave pixote letter grades it would probably be a low B- or C+ right now.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: FLYmeatwad on December 17, 2017, 12:42:22 PM
Isn't Finn's arc going from caring only about Rey to caring about the Rebellion?

I guess that makes sense, he does get ready to die at the end, maybe it's just the way the reunion was staged that I still had his focus on Rey.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: AliceGuyBlache on December 17, 2017, 05:29:30 PM
I liked this except for two scenes that are quite possibly worse than any other individual moments in the STAR WARS films.

1. Leia surviving that blast due to force-ex-machina. It makes zero sense and it hurts the mythology of the force more than any Midichlorian explanation. It singlehandedly sours what is otherwise a mostly great film.

2. Kids playing with Luke Skywalker figurines in the final scene. BECAUSE DISNEY NEED TO SELL THE TOYZ. This doesn't sour the film as much as the previous scene, but if the Leia scene didn't exist and this one still did, it would still keep me back from overlooking the other minor problems I had with the film.



Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: 1SO on December 17, 2017, 05:39:12 PM
2. Kids playing with Luke Skywalker figurines in the final scene. BECAUSE DISNEY NEED TO SELL THE TOYZ. This doesn't sour the film as much as the previous scene, but if the Leia scene didn't exist and this one still did, it would still keep me back from overlooking the other minor problems I had with the film.
I wrote the same and since then I've been listening to other opinions that mostly love the final scene, taking it for what I believe was its true intention, showing the optimism of hope. I can believe that was the intent, but coming from a Star Wars film, one of the great merchandising tools of our lifetime, I can't get past seeing it as selling the mania to future generations.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: jdc on December 17, 2017, 05:41:33 PM
OK,  I am going to need to rewatch this, maybe be sober next time.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: AliceGuyBlache on December 17, 2017, 05:53:52 PM
2. Kids playing with Luke Skywalker figurines in the final scene. BECAUSE DISNEY NEED TO SELL THE TOYZ. This doesn't sour the film as much as the previous scene, but if the Leia scene didn't exist and this one still did, it would still keep me back from overlooking the other minor problems I had with the film.
I wrote the same and since then I've been listening to other opinions that mostly love the final scene, taking it for what I believe was its true intention, showing the optimism of hope. I can believe that was the intent, but coming from a Star Wars film, one of the great merchandising tools of our lifetime, I can't get past seeing it as selling the mania to future generations.

Yeah, I see that intent too, but how many times did any of us play with General Patton figures? Chris Kyle action figures aren't a top selling toy this Christmas!
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 18, 2017, 06:40:13 AM
As much as the entire casino planet was absolutely worthless padding, and the space-superman being incredibly silly, the hyperspace attack on Snoke's ship was jaw-dropping. I wasn't expecting Akira to be a touchstone of a 2017 Star Wars movie, but here we are.

Casino Planet was by far the worst part of the movie. A useless detour that should have been scrubbed out to make space for something better.

Nice catch with Akira though.

Weird that this echoes Harry Potter so much in the midsection.

Ha, yeah. I thought the last shot should have faded to a title that read, "And that's how quidditch was born."

As much as the entire casino planet was absolutely worthless padding ...

The very first shot of the casino literally made me say to myself, "I could walk out now without regret."

the hyperspace attack on Snoke's ship was jaw-dropping

I found it telling that the best moment in the film was when they shut off the soundtrack.

Worst moment in the film: Fighting for what you love. I wish Finn had been ripped to shreds in the crash and Rose walked away without a scratch but in tears, with Leia crying after her, "What were in thinking?!?" and Rose whispering, "I wasn't thinking. I was feeling."

The Fozzie Bear cameo was weird. It's too bad they couldn't get Yoda.

pixote

I want to be mad but I couldn't stop laughing.

I thought the Yoda thing was an interesting commentary of Johnson sourcing his movie from the original trilogy to divorce himself from prequel nonsense. I still wish he had used the superior Revenge of the Sith Yoda and not the sock puppet. It makes sense he retains his end of life personality though.

During the gliders scene, I hoped Johnson was going to be bold and kill a main character. That girl feels very jammed into the series and her arc is not strong at all.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 18, 2017, 08:26:59 AM
So Porgs are a thing now?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Junior on December 18, 2017, 09:00:29 AM
2. Kids playing with Luke Skywalker figurines in the final scene. BECAUSE DISNEY NEED TO SELL THE TOYZ. This doesn't sour the film as much as the previous scene, but if the Leia scene didn't exist and this one still did, it would still keep me back from overlooking the other minor problems I had with the film.
I wrote the same and since then I've been listening to other opinions that mostly love the final scene, taking it for what I believe was its true intention, showing the optimism of hope. I can believe that was the intent, but coming from a Star Wars film, one of the great merchandising tools of our lifetime, I can't get past seeing it as selling the mania to future generations.

Is there anything these kids could have done that would not inspire this response? If they were lightsabering around it wouldn't change anything, lightsabers come in all kinds of buyable shapes and sizes. I suppose the one could have just been telling the story to the others, but is that how kids work? Do they sit down to tell each other stories at that age, or do they act them out? It's been about 25 years for me, but the toy version feels like the most realistic thing they could have been doing. We got past the cynicism for The Lego Movie, when are we gonna get past it for Star Wars? (I feel I should point out that perhaps the most important plot/character point in the film, Rey's decision to not join Kylo Ren, is a choice against cynicism.)
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 18, 2017, 09:52:16 AM
I'm super happy they didn't do something cheap with either Snoke or Rey in terms of their origin. That was my biggest fear going into this movie.

It's funny how they kept bringing up and dancing around Rey's parents like there's a draft where we learn Snoke is Rey's father or at one point it looks like they're building to Kylo being Rey's father somehow. With Force Awakens there was too much conversation about how closely it resembled A New Hope and I think a parental reveal like that would've single-handedly made this an Empire clone.

I loved this too. It seemed like a foregone conclusion that Rey would have to be Luke's kid, or a Skywalker in any effect, maybe Ben's sister. The entire movie is Johnson not doing what people would expect him too. He avoids the clichés and the easy solutions. He makes many decisions I sort of predicted, but not the ones I would have bet on necessarily. Better than that, the ones I hoped for. I think this makes the trilogy more about Ben, because now he is the Skywalker on point, and his arc becomes the centre of the story.

Johson salvaged what he could out of Snoke and I am glad he killed him off. I was dreading the possibility they would make him a reincarnated Palpatine, following one major EU storyline. No backstory at all is much better than that, even though two lines about who he is would have been nice.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 18, 2017, 09:55:39 AM
2. Kids playing with Luke Skywalker figurines in the final scene. BECAUSE DISNEY NEED TO SELL THE TOYZ. This doesn't sour the film as much as the previous scene, but if the Leia scene didn't exist and this one still did, it would still keep me back from overlooking the other minor problems I had with the film.
I wrote the same and since then I've been listening to other opinions that mostly love the final scene, taking it for what I believe was its true intention, showing the optimism of hope. I can believe that was the intent, but coming from a Star Wars film, one of the great merchandising tools of our lifetime, I can't get past seeing it as selling the mania to future generations.

Is there anything these kids could have done that would not inspire this response? If they were lightsabering around it wouldn't change anything, lightsabers come in all kinds of buyable shapes and sizes. I suppose the one could have just been telling the story to the others, but is that how kids work? Do they sit down to tell each other stories at that age, or do they act them out? It's been about 25 years for me, but the toy version feels like the most realistic thing they could have been doing. We got past the cynicism for The Lego Movie, when are we gonna get past it for Star Wars? (I feel I should point out that perhaps the most important plot/character point in the film, Rey's decision to not join Kylo Ren, is a choice against cynicism.)

I was not a fan of the last scene either. I thought the movie should have cut before we ever get to the kids. It's not a bad scene at all. It's well made and super effective I thought. My only gripe is that it is so out of place in Star Wars. This has never been a franchise about the little people. The masses are never represented and then there is this one scene where we give the people a face. The first trilogy was all about archetypes and Jonhson is shifting the parameters significantly to make it about real people. That's what he does in the opening too, which is an action scene unlike any before in the series.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sandy on December 18, 2017, 12:30:23 PM
I've been haphazardly/hastily following along and like the conciseness of Solid Blake's approach to join in a little, before heading out the door, again. I've rearranged some things, but thanks for doing the work for me, Blake!



The Highs:
-Cinematography/Inventive Shots
-Rey+Kylo Connection
-Snoke’s Death and Red Room Showdown - Love the Praetorian Guards' choreography!
-Rose
-Hyperspace Punch! - This is the collision, yes?
-Force Luke
-Space Dern vs. Poe subplot - Even though I agree with the choice, I'm a little sad they won't get to have any scenes together in the future. Man, were the sparks flying!
-More Poe time - Both in banter and in battle
-Benicio del Toro

Mixed:
-New Creatures (Porgs)
-Comedy - I absolutely hate the dumb comedy and absolutely love the smart. Examples -- Dumb equals the sea cows. Smart equals Luke flicking dust off his shoulder.
-Rey’s family just being junkers and the fact that even stable boys can use the force.

The Lows:
-Pacing issues hampered my experience - Big time. And also time issues! What were Rose and Finn doing futzing around finding a pickpocket in a casino on a planet, while the rebels were limping along on fumes, trying to stay ahead of the bad guys? Who has time for that?!
-Maz Kanata Skype call felt super cheesy
-They killed off Ackbar... OFF SCREEN!
-General Hux still Sux  I didn't like him in the first one and I have a hard time liking him here. He's all "a wink and a nod" like he can't really inhabit a character.
-The caretakers on Luke’s Island

Low, lows:
-Sea Cow milk
-Fathiers CGI stampede
-Leia in Spaaaaace (Superman scene)
Who is Snoke and why is he on the throne and why is there a canyon in his face?



I'm sure there is much more, but that's a start. Great observations everyone! Happy to read your input. :)
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Junior on December 18, 2017, 01:28:10 PM
I really don't get the hate for Leia in SPAAAAAACE. Do we need a scene with an explanation of her ability to do that? Do you just need it too look different? It makes sense and it looks cool to me.

I wrote a long thing about why I liked this one and not (most of) the other ones.

You can read it with pretty pictures here (https://benefitsofaclassicaleducation.wordpress.com/2017/12/18/a-personal-response-to-star-wars-the-last-jedi/), or without directly below.

I don’t like Star Wars. Wait, stop, don’t go yet. Let me clarify. I don’t like Star Wars movies very much. When I was around 7 years old, I got both the Original Trilogy (hereafter OT) and the Indiana Jones Trilogy on VHS at roughly the same time. I started with Star Wars and found myself enjoying but not falling head over heals with the films. Then I watched the Indiana Jones movies and fell in love with them. Here’s a movie for me! Whips! Nazi punching! The best part of Star Wars given his own films and no whiny kids to muck it all up (ok, well, at least not in 2/3 of them). That isn’t to say that I cast Star Wars aside entirely. In fact, if you looked at my toy collection for the next 5 or so years of my life, you’d think I was the biggest Star Wars fan there was. I did love the extended Star Wars universe. I read a bunch of the books, ignoring the generally bad prose for the pretty fun world-(or universe)-building. As I got older I got really into a few Star Wars videogames, especially the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series and, of course, both Knights of the Old Republic games. When the Prequel Trilogy began I was 11 years old and of course I loved The Phantom Menace because I was the perfect age for it. I came home and fought the classic broom-handle-lightsaber battles with my friends. I played the terrible videogame that followed the events of the movie and the fantastic podracer game. I got Lego sets and the action figures. I made up stories of my own because the stories (and most of the primary characters) weren’t all that interesting to me. This is my Star Wars apostasy, I’m a spiritual Star Wars fan, not a fundamentalist. And that is why The Last Jedi is, for me, the first truly great Star Wars movie.

The Last Jedi corrects most of the problems I had with the OT (and even The Force Awakens). Yo, Mark Hammill is good as hell as an older, cloistered, and sad version of Luke Skywalker. Gone is the whine, in its place is a gruff harrumph. This not only removes a great annoyance but also makes sense for his character. His success at the end of Return of the Jedi has turned into a failure, and he has shut himself off from the Force because of it. Here is the first study of what failure can do to a person and what they do because of it. Another comes in the form of Poe Dameron, who begins the film with a failure disguised as a success and takes the whole film to learn his lesson. But the important thing is that he learns a lesson; he has real character traits and growth instead of a fun sarcasm and a cool coat, which is pretty much all he had going for him in TFA. Even Finn, who spent the whole last movie learning to stop running from something and start running towards something instead, grows further in this film, though its one major flaw is that the path to growth isn’t particularly interesting or consequential. Finn is definitively in a new place by the end of the film, I just wish that getting there was more meaningful. Speaking of meaningful, though, TLJ‘s best correction is in its reinvention (for the movies, at least), of the central idea of Star Wars.

I didn’t make you read all those other Star Wars media that I engaged with earlier in this piece for nothing. They are the place where authors, game makers, and even yours truly were able to engage with the ideas present in the Star Wars films on our own terms. They are the places where the Force went from a pretty boring binary choice between Light and Dark sides to a wider range of possibilities. They were a place for (more) complex storytelling and further invention and elaboration that turned Star Wars from a myth into a real thing: a place with details beyond desert planet, jungle planet, city planet and stories that had characters who grew and came from other places. Until The Last Jedi, the Star Wars movies were the stories of a whiny adolescent who grew up into a great evil and a whiny adolescent who grew up into a boring hero. The Force Awakens started something new but was too focused on setting up mysteries to really give us solid ground to stand on as far as the new characters and their stories went. Audiences were caught up in wondering who Rey’s parents were and where Snoke came from. The Last Jedi doesn’t particularly care about the answers to these questions. On one it punts entirely only to set up a much more interesting story, and on the other the answer solves the biggest issue with of Star Wars forever (I hope).

Rey’s parents are nobody. Snoke’s backstory doesn’t matter because he exists for the same reason that the Emperor existed in the OT: he’s there for a character to kill in order to become somebody else. Rey’s lack of important parentage frees the Star Wars movies from the Skywalker saga it so boringly was for six movies and in so doing makes good on the fight between fascist evil and (militaristic) democratic good by removing the idea that one’s heritage is what makes them great. Rey’s insignificant backstory means that any audience member might see themselves in her. While broom-lightsaber fighting they won’t have to declare “I’m Luke” or whatever, they can be themselves. Because now, for the first time in a Star Wars movie (but not the first time in my experience with Star Wars), the hero is her own thing and so is the villain. Snoke’s backstory doesn’t matter because he stands in for the unmotivated (at least inside the OT) Emperor and even Vader. They were beings of pure evil whose only intention was to create more evil through destruction. They didn’t seem to have much of a reason for this, and their only motivation for trying to stop the Skywalkers was in ridding themselves of a roadblock. So too was Supreme Leader Snoke singleminded in his evilness. Not so for his replacement, Kylo Ren. We know Kylo’s motivations and flaws from two movies of solid character work. We know his reasons for trying to bring Rey to his side because he puts them out for everybody to see. We know why he hates Luke and we know that his hatred is both justified and somewhat ignorant. That’s a complex and fascinating villain, for once, and I’m glad that we get to see a whole arc for him rather than some backstory for Snoke that would have likely been unimportant. This also solves Star Wars’ problems. Both hero and villain have complicated and meaningful motivations and grow from one film to the next. Their power is not built upon revelations about their histories but rather on their qualities as human beings.

Pixote saw this movie before me and predicted that I would hate it. While it is true that The Last Jedi is an indulgent movie and does a lot of the kind of stuff I didn’t like in the earlier films, it turns out that my problems with those earlier films wasn’t with the content but rather the execution. Here’s a film that has a bunch of goofy humor in it, but it’s good goofy humor. There are a lot of hokey religions and ancient weapons, but now they aren’t the only thing. The Force is more expansive and it has become part of the extensive ecology rather than a thing that gives you powers. Indeed, one of the film’s best scenes is an explanation of what the Force is, and if you had told me that beforehand I’d have laughed in your face because I remember midichlorians. But this film pulls it off because there is a sense of craft brought by Rian Johnson and his team. His explanation of the Force is not just words but also images and cuts. The Force is magic, sure, but for the first time it is movie magic, too. The actors here are actually good–even the ones I didn’t like before–and their lines aren’t terrible! There are at least 5 amazing scenes in this movie, and I’m not sure there are that many in the entire OT. This film has the best lightsaber fight of all the movies and two fantastic space fights. It’s a little too long and there’s a big section that could have used a little tuning. But damn if I didn’t find myself loving every minute of The Last Jedi. And that’s a first for the series as well.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 18, 2017, 03:02:23 PM
Junior is bae.

The best lightsaber fight is Vader v. all in Rogue One though.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: aewade90 on December 18, 2017, 03:36:34 PM
I really don't get the hate for Leia in SPAAAAAACE. Do we need a scene with an explanation of her ability to do that? Do you just need it too look different? It makes sense and it looks cool to me.

It just seems too far-fetched, which is mildly ridiculous considering we have lasers acting like cannonballs and cardboard space bombers. I know that it's silly to go "space doesn't work that way!" in my space wizards franchise, but it's such a massive jump in terms of what we've come to expect from the character and really stretches the believeability. Leia doesn't need force powers to be a badass, her character is already established as one. Yeah, it makes sense she's got an innate ability with the Force, but to quote another 1970's classic, "that's much too vulgar a display of power, Karras."

Rewatching this last night, the casino sequence was a lot shorter the second time around but still feels unnecessary. The bombers at the start make zero sense whatsoever (again, space doesn't work that way), but having recently watched Twelve O'Clock High and the franchises' larger homage to WW2 film for dogfights, I'm OK with it. I still can't parse the timeline quite right, either, but the throne room fight and hyperspace punch are simply blockbuster perfection that I'm having trouble thinking of better moments that have come from Hollywood this year.

Also of interesting note, as Leia supermans herself back to the ship, she crosses through a hologram of Snoke's ship in a very similar way to Holdo eventually does, which seems to be a nice bit of foreshadowing. I also started wondering why Ackbar himself couldn't have done that (if he had survived, at least), but then realised (probably much the same as Disney did) that having a character named Ackbah do a suicide run might have been a bit on the nose.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: philip918 on December 18, 2017, 04:17:21 PM
The Highs:

Red Room Duel - thrilling stuff. Great combination of choreography, a feeling of improvisation, and grit.

Rose - fun and passionate and a bit revolutionary. Loved her. But that kiss at the end tho...

Hyperspace punch - a truly breathtaking moment. Gorgeous and epic.

The shot of Leia, lost in thought, wearing her badass cloak.

Luke Skywalker - this could have gone wrong in so many ways. Too cheesy, too cynical, too inconsequential. But they struck a very nice balance for the character and Hamill delivers a strong performance.

Mixed:

The plot scattered between too many storylines. Rey often gets lost in the mix and she's who I wanted to spend the most time with. It's kind of annoying how she really doesn't factor into the finale with Luke at all.

Leia in space - it was Superman redux, but it was also genuinely surprising because I thought for sure that's how they ended up handling Carrie Fisher's passing.

The Lows:

Rose and Fin's storyline. Tonally it felt cartoonish. The Saturday morning kid's show version of Star Wars. But also just silly and lame. Wish the movie had found a way to start with them on the mission already. Their story was too rushed and so plot-focused that I didn't buy her romantic feelings for him at the end, because they hadn't shared enough time between the action to really connect on a deeper level.

Everything on Canto Bight.

Maz Kanata Skype was super cheesy and kicked off the film's weakest storyline.

Poe and Holdo's storyline. Why was secrecy such a priority? There are like 40 people left alive in the resistance. Plus, it was the simplest of plans. I was hoping the "tether" would be something far simpler than a tracking device. A mole, for instance, which would necessitate the secrecy.

The ending. I get the spirit of it, but it just felt so different from the rest of the film. It had the look of a Hasbro toys commercial.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 18, 2017, 04:28:56 PM
I'll write more, and I'm not caught up on the thread yet, but:

RE: Throne Room Battle

What happened to the second trilogy fight style? It was elaborate and elegant, I loved the choreography of the lightsabers dancing against each other. In this new trilogy, it's all brute force and charging the enemy. Kylo shows little to no skill for a guy who's supposed to have had training.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: aewade90 on December 18, 2017, 05:27:25 PM
I'll write more, and I'm not caught up on the thread yet, but:

RE: Throne Room Battle

What happened to the second trilogy fight style? It was elaborate and elegant, I loved the choreography of the lightsabers dancing against each other. In this new trilogy, it's all brute force and charging the enemy. Kylo shows little to no skill for a guy who's supposed to have had training.

I think one of the points of Ren is that he has no discipline, despite being trained. As shown by the end of this movie he's quick to rage, and it suits that his fighting style reflects that - he starts off in stances but will quickly turn to brutality. Rey is fighting the same feelings but isn't trained, so it's questionable as to whether it's a conscious decision on her behalf.

TLJ, and in particular the Throne Room, really strikes the balance between the stilted dying/aging honour duels of the Original Trilogy (which Luke lapses from in particular with his final duel with Vader - he batters him to submission in a moment of rage) and the over-choreographed back and forth of the prequels.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Junior on December 18, 2017, 06:48:39 PM
Given what I wrote earlier today, this is great: https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/a-list-of-some-of-the-times-the-last-jedi-told-the-olde-1821396631
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: 1SO on December 18, 2017, 10:15:13 PM
Casino Planet was by far the worst part of the movie. A useless detour that should have been scrubbed out to make space for something better.
I could feel the film losing its audience, but then I remembered a scene in Revenge of the Sith where Obi wan is riding a giant chicken and this isn't that bad. Actually, I don't think it's bad at all, just a different type of adventure. Perhaps the set design needed to be even more outer worldly instead of looking like a place James Bond could walk into.

I thought the Yoda thing was an interesting commentary of Johnson sourcing his movie from the original trilogy to divorce himself from prequel nonsense. I still wish he had used the superior Revenge of the Sith Yoda and not the sock puppet. It makes sense he retains his end of life personality though.
I noticed an interesting mix throughout of old and new school effects. I thought Johnson was mostly clever with using new technology but making shots of things like the Millennium Falcon look much like they did in the original trilogy.

During the gliders scene, I hoped Johnson was going to be bold and kill a main character. That girl feels very jammed into the series and her arc is not strong at all.
When Finn made his run I was thinking that his arc was essentially complete with the defeat of Phasma, so he could be killed.


Is there anything these kids could have done that would not inspire this response?
Unfortunately no. This is Star Wars and Disney and we don't live in a vacuum. Perhaps if the scene wasn't filmed like a commercial for the new Star Wars land Disney is building, but as it plays now it's as blatant a commercial as the product placement in Batman & Robin.



-New Creatures (Porgs)
-Comedy - I absolutely hate the dumb comedy and absolutely love the smart. Examples -- Dumb equals the sea cows. Smart equals Luke flicking dust off his shoulder.
I like the Porgs, but I like the Crystal Foxes even more.
Luke flicking the dust is a moment similar to him tossing the lightsaber. If you're into these films for the majesty, these jokes are not welcome. They take out a lot of air, much like most of Ragnarok. However, I don't take these films that seriously so I found it very funny.


The best lightsaber fight is Vader v. all in Rogue One though.
All previous lightsaber fights were closer to sword battles in pirate movies. The throne room is the first time it played more like a classic samurai action film. The Vader scene is uber-cool, but there are some jaw-drop moves in that throne room.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: pixote on December 19, 2017, 04:30:10 AM
pixote saw this movie before me and predicted that I would hate it. While it is true that The Last Jedi is an indulgent movie and does a lot of the kind of stuff I didn’t like in the earlier films, it turns out that my problems with those earlier films wasn’t with the content but rather the execution.

My actual prediction (not fully expressed) was that you'd love the new film, and the seemingly irreconcilable contradiction vis-à-vis your opinion of the earlier movies would drive me to drink.

Bottoms up.

pixote
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 19, 2017, 05:26:50 AM
Agreed on Traitor's arc and killing him off. He has essentially been useless to the plot and the series in general.

As I heard someone mention the Chinese market yesterday, I realised why Rose was there at all, and I was gutted. If they wanted to include a Chinese character they should have introduced her in Ep. VII and made her a real person. Also, there are no alien main characters in this trilogy. Or even secondary. Maz is the closest thing we have to that.

The fights in the OT were very kinetic and they became a sort of ballet in the prequels, which I really enjoyed. It made sense to me to use the sabers that way when fighting against other force users. The RO scene has lots of use of the force, which most other fights sorely lack. The throne sequence only uses it to move the sabers around. Surely Kylo could have pushed a couple of guards back?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 19, 2017, 06:34:51 AM
Since we're doing this.

The Highs:

- The gorgeous, sublime cinematography and art direction and the many fantastic shots and sets
- Rey + Kylo Connection
- Snoke’s Death and how subversive it was
- Red Room Showdown
- Hyperspace Punch!
- Getting a feel for the rebellion beyond just the triumvirate of main characters
- The Porgs
- Rey's family reveal that eschews the easy, predictable way this could have gone and makes Kylo the resident Skywalker
- A villain I can believe in, finally.
- Emotionally complex characters!
- The mythology gets expanded without retconning anything.
- Johnson repeatedly giving the finger to Abrams, and Lucas, to a lesser extent. 
- Extensive use of the Force by a character, finally.
- This movie has ideas and is about something.
- Getting rid of Phasma.
- Poe being the MVP.

Mixed:

- The Humour: Some of it was jarring and made a tonal mess of the surrounding scenes, like the on hold scene, which has no place in a movie like this, but other jokes were welcome additions to the SW formula. I don't want this series to start following the MCU template too.
- Rose (a mostly realised character but the entire subplot is pointless)
- Hux.
- Leia. I can take or leave the Superman scene, but there was a point there where I thought if they let her die there it would have made a perfect tribute. Now they've got to figure out what to do with her character.
- No Luke kicking someone's ass with his sick Master Jedi skills scene.
- The opening. The execution is great but it feels out of place in a SW episode movie. I could totally see it in a spin off, but something jarred in me as I was watching it. It's mostly great though. Maybe upon rewatch.
- The last scene. It was very effective, but SW has never been about the little guys, and this shift in perspective doesn't fit with the rest of the movie. Also true of all the stuff Rose says.

The Lows:

- The pointless casino planet subplot and everything that happens to Finn in general. He has a good arc but it is constructed around events that serve no purpose most of the time.
- The Space Dern v. Poe subplot is not very smart and constitutes a further loss of time.
- I'm pretty sure the timeline doesn't make sense.
- Maz Kanata Skype call was useless
- How good Rey is at using her powers and handling a lightsaber is even more egregious here.
- Could have used two lines about who Snoke is.
- We never learn what the third lesson is.
- I don't trust Abrams to follow up.

Hope to put all of this into a review after I rewatch it tonight.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 19, 2017, 06:49:27 AM
Quote
I didn’t make you read all those other Star Wars media that I engaged with earlier in this piece for nothing. They are the place where authors, game makers, and even yours truly were able to engage with the ideas present in the Star Wars films on our own terms. They are the places where the Force went from a pretty boring binary choice between Light and Dark sides to a wider range of possibilities. They were a place for (more) complex storytelling and further invention and elaboration that turned Star Wars from a myth into a real thing: a place with details beyond desert planet, jungle planet, city planet and stories that had characters who grew and came from other places. Until The Last Jedi, the Star Wars movies were the stories of a whiny adolescent who grew up into a great evil and a whiny adolescent who grew up into a boring hero. The Force Awakens started something new but was too focused on setting up mysteries to really give us solid ground to stand on as far as the new characters and their stories went. Audiences were caught up in wondering who Rey’s parents were and where Snoke came from. The Last Jedi doesn’t particularly care about the answers to these questions. On one it punts entirely only to set up a much more interesting story, and on the other the answer solves the biggest issue with of Star Wars forever (I hope).

Rey’s parents are nobody. Snoke’s backstory doesn’t matter because he exists for the same reason that the Emperor existed in the OT: he’s there for a character to kill in order to become somebody else. Rey’s lack of important parentage frees the Star Wars movies from the Skywalker saga it so boringly was for six movies and in so doing makes good on the fight between fascist evil and (militaristic) democratic good by removing the idea that one’s heritage is what makes them great. Rey’s insignificant backstory means that any audience member might see themselves in her. While broom-lightsaber fighting they won’t have to declare “I’m Luke” or whatever, they can be themselves. Because now, for the first time in a Star Wars movie (but not the first time in my experience with Star Wars), the hero is her own thing and so is the villain. Snoke’s backstory doesn’t matter because he stands in for the unmotivated (at least inside the OT) Emperor and even Vader. They were beings of pure evil whose only intention was to create more evil through destruction. They didn’t seem to have much of a reason for this, and their only motivation for trying to stop the Skywalkers was in ridding themselves of a roadblock. So too was Supreme Leader Snoke singleminded in his evilness. Not so for his replacement, Kylo Ren. We know Kylo’s motivations and flaws from two movies of solid character work. We know his reasons for trying to bring Rey to his side because he puts them out for everybody to see. We know why he hates Luke and we know that his hatred is both justified and somewhat ignorant. That’s a complex and fascinating villain, for once, and I’m glad that we get to see a whole arc for him rather than some backstory for Snoke that would have likely been unimportant. This also solves Star Wars’ problems. Both hero and villain have complicated and meaningful motivations and grow from one film to the next. Their power is not built upon revelations about their histories but rather on their qualities as human beings.

I cannot second this enough.

There is one idea I've been thinking about. In many respects, this should have been Episode VII. This movie sets up the characters and the further conflict so much better. I don't know how they'll ever manage to wrap this all up in just one movie, but that concern aside, this movie gives all its characters conflicts and sets up cross-movie arcs. It gives us Kylo and Rey's origins and creates an opposition between them that is far superior to Awakens. It gets rid of a bunch of things that don't matter like Snoke and Phasma, who would have been much less problematic in VII had they been promptly dispatched.

In my mind there is a very good case for getting rid of 80% of Episode VII and attaching the remaining 20% to TLJ and make it the first episode in the trilogy.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: 1SO on December 19, 2017, 07:45:34 AM
I’m betting JJ opens the next one with a funeral for Leia, who will have died of old age.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: The Deer Hunter on December 19, 2017, 07:47:03 AM
I’m betting JJ opens the next one with a funeral for Leia.

That seems like the best way to go. Can even have it interrupted and attacked by the empire to kickstart things.

I appreciate the casting in the new trilogy so far. It's not just different races but they have actors and actresses of all shapes and sizes.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 19, 2017, 08:35:05 AM
Because Rose was a bit pudgy? The men are attractive, muscly and lean ; the women are attractive, slim and fit. At most there was diversity of ages.

I’m betting JJ opens the next one with a funeral for Leia, who will have died of old age.

Makes sense. Sounds better than a CGI Leia.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on December 19, 2017, 09:16:07 AM
I have a theory that Luke already taught the third lesson, he just didn't state what it was.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 19, 2017, 09:46:54 AM
Was it a 200 hour course on lightsaber fighting?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: philip918 on December 19, 2017, 01:08:51 PM
The third lesson will come in the third film. You really think that's the last we see of Luke?

The more I think about this film, the more I like it, even though I still have issues with some of the plot. Quite the opposite of Force Awakens, which was nearly all surface, no depth.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: 1SO on December 19, 2017, 01:43:55 PM
- Rey's family reveal that eschews the easy, predictable way this could have gone and makes Kylo the resident Skywalker

- Could have used two lines about who Snoke is.
Interesting how many people are on board with Rey's family being nobody when I find it to be a similar subversion to The Mandarin in Iron Man 3, which most people hated.

Much as the Snoke death is a great surprise, and ultimately the other half of Kylo coming into his own, after killing his biological father in the last film, I have to admit I'm curious to know more about Snoke. How did he get to be where he was? I know this type of question is what led to the prequels, but if done right I'd like to see it.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Solid Blake on December 19, 2017, 02:08:55 PM
My Prediction:

Episode IX will take place at least 10 years into the future. Rey will have Force-Ghost Luke continue to mentor her and she'll start a new less religious/political version of the Jedi, and a much more agnostic teaching. She'll have a double sided light-saber, based off her bow-staff, using the blue and green kyber crystals of Luke's sabers. Leia will have passed due to natural causes and her death will either be explained away in the crawling text, or it will open with a funeral in space (picture a beautiful rendition of a Space viking funeral). Kylo will be tormented by his rejection by Rey--but will be more powerful due to his "promotion." Finn and Rose will end up together, Poe and Rey will have a "will they/won't they" relationship and Hux will finally die.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: philip918 on December 19, 2017, 02:15:36 PM
Poe probably should have died in the final battle. Him learning his lesson was forced and not really appropriate given the situation. The last of the resistance is behind that door. There is no retreat. This is their last stand. Would have made a lot more sense that he flies into the cannon.

That said, a lot of suicide bombings in this movie...
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Solid Blake on December 19, 2017, 02:34:11 PM
Poe probably should have died in the final battle. Him learning his lesson was forced and not really appropriate given the situation. The last of the resistance is behind that door. There is no retreat. This is their last stand. Would have made a lot more sense that he flies into the cannon.

That said, a lot of suicide bombings in this movie...

Finn* ?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: philip918 on December 19, 2017, 03:15:25 PM
Poe probably should have died in the final battle. Him learning his lesson was forced and not really appropriate given the situation. The last of the resistance is behind that door. There is no retreat. This is their last stand. Would have made a lot more sense that he flies into the cannon.

That said, a lot of suicide bombings in this movie...

Finn* ?

Nope. Poe. I didn't really think it made much sense that Finn was making the suicide run.

As fun as Oscar Isaac is as Poe, I think he overshadows Finn's storyline too much.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Junior on December 19, 2017, 03:35:06 PM
Junior is bae.

The best lightsaber fight is Vader v. all in Rogue One though.

Thanks friend. U 2.

But I'd also argue that Vader's is more of a slaughter than it is a fight. Is there any real, ahem, resistance to him in that hallway?

I really don't get the hate for Leia in SPAAAAAACE. Do we need a scene with an explanation of her ability to do that? Do you just need it too look different? It makes sense and it looks cool to me.

It just seems too far-fetched, which is mildly ridiculous considering we have lasers acting like cannonballs and cardboard space bombers. I know that it's silly to go "space doesn't work that way!" in my space wizards franchise, but it's such a massive jump in terms of what we've come to expect from the character and really stretches the believeability. Leia doesn't need force powers to be a badass, her character is already established as one. Yeah, it makes sense she's got an innate ability with the Force, but to quote another 1970's classic, "that's much too vulgar a display of power, Karras."

I guess it has happened before in books, but also isn't it just kinda the opposite of pulling a lightsaber (or a broom) to you? If you grab onto something bolted down in the ship and you're out in space and then you pull, wouldn't that work roughly as depicted. We know that you can survive space for a short period of time before freezing or whatever you'll do, so I don't think any one part is particularly inaccurate. It looks a little goofy, sure, but so does Luke as he pulls that X-Wing out of the swamp in ESB, so I'm not going to ding the only opportunity Leia will ever have (in a movie) to do some awesome Force thing just because it's one goofy thing in a franchise full of them.

Is there anything these kids could have done that would not inspire this response?
Unfortunately no. This is Star Wars and Disney and we don't live in a vacuum. Perhaps if the scene wasn't filmed like a commercial for the new Star Wars land Disney is building, but as it plays now it's as blatant a commercial as the product placement in Batman & Robin.

I just very much disagree. If it's a commercial, what is it for?

(http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100920130513/batman/images/d/d3/GothCard.jpg)

Here we've got a company paying for exposure in a film that isn't (very much) about buying things. What is Star Wars advertising? Brooms? In the scene we have a homemade toy, two salvaged parts used as ships, and a broom. If it was what you're saying it was he'd have an official lightsaber replica. They're all over the stores. Instead, what he has at the end is what my friends and I used as our lightsabers. It's an acknowledgement, once again, that the larger ideas matter more than the details. It's a shoutout to kids who want to grow up in a place where their talents could also make them important. I know you aren't the only one who saw the ending this way, I just wish you could see it as I saw it. It isn't out of place when it sums up the whole thrust of the film in a few shots.

pixote saw this movie before me and predicted that I would hate it. While it is true that The Last Jedi is an indulgent movie and does a lot of the kind of stuff I didn’t like in the earlier films, it turns out that my problems with those earlier films wasn’t with the content but rather the execution.

My actual prediction (not fully expressed) was that you'd love the new film, and the seemingly irreconcilable contradiction vis-à-vis your opinion of the earlier movies would drive me to drink.

Bottoms up.

pixote

I basically wrote that because of your review and the little bit of provocation you threw in there. It really made me think about why I was reacting this way now when I didn't like the others very much, and so I want to thank you for that. I hope what I wrote made some sense in that direction.

I do wonder, given your linking of this film to RotJ, if I would like the OT more now. Tastes change (see my recent review of Aliens for a shining example) and maybe I'd love them now. I think it's been about a decade since I watched them. I'm probably going to wait on a 4K rerelease and maybe Disney's ownership of Fox will get us a de-specialized official release, finally. I'm eager to see what I make of them now.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: AliceGuyBlache on December 19, 2017, 05:54:52 PM
2. Kids playing with Luke Skywalker figurines in the final scene. BECAUSE DISNEY NEED TO SELL THE TOYZ. This doesn't sour the film as much as the previous scene, but if the Leia scene didn't exist and this one still did, it would still keep me back from overlooking the other minor problems I had with the film.
I wrote the same and since then I've been listening to other opinions that mostly love the final scene, taking it for what I believe was its true intention, showing the optimism of hope. I can believe that was the intent, but coming from a Star Wars film, one of the great merchandising tools of our lifetime, I can't get past seeing it as selling the mania to future generations.

Is there anything these kids could have done that would not inspire this response? If they were lightsabering around it wouldn't change anything, lightsabers come in all kinds of buyable shapes and sizes. I suppose the one could have just been telling the story to the others, but is that how kids work? Do they sit down to tell each other stories at that age, or do they act them out? It's been about 25 years for me, but the toy version feels like the most realistic thing they could have been doing. We got past the cynicism for The Lego Movie, when are we gonna get past it for Star Wars? (I feel I should point out that perhaps the most important plot/character point in the film, Rey's decision to not join Kylo Ren, is a choice against cynicism.)

What are you talking about? Legos ARE toys. There wasn't a lego film then legos made from that film. And I don't know about you, but I never played with soldier action figures based on real life people. Chris Kyle isn't a massively popular action figure.

Your line of argument is so confusing. It presupposes that this scene was the only thing that they could've done, that this is the only way they could've ended the movie, then you appear to negotiate as if the screenwriter was cornered by this apparently logical conclusion. People do this kind of technique all of the time, in order to justify their defense.

No, there's plenty of different conclusions they could've gone.

The entire trilogy up to this point has people telling stories. There could've been an older person of authority telling the story of Luke Skywalker with kids surrounding him. That happens, that's still true and authentic. Point being I have no problem with the idea behind the scene, just with the execution. Even the lightsaber broom isn't so much a problem because lightsabers are just swords. But action figures? Knowing the course that the film series took because of the merchandising (Harrison Ford being told by Lucas that he wouldn't kill off his character in RETURN OF THE JEDI because no one would buy dead Han dolls), it leaves a pretty sour taste in my mouth. Add to the fact that Disney is infamous for milking films for all its toy worth, it just sours more. And to tie that all up, the way it's shot, with the kid's hand moving the action figure toward the camera (!!!) triggered instant 90s toy commercials in my mind. No. It's a bad scene, regardless of the idea behind it, because the execution is god-awful.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: AliceGuyBlache on December 19, 2017, 06:07:04 PM
Leia would've died from the burns in that explosion. The fact that's not even scarred is ridiculous. The fact that she survives that and space is eye-rolling and insane. If you're defending that, then you can't critique anything that you see as stupid in the mythology of the force in the prequel trilogy. It's Christmas Holiday Special bad.

By the way, Disney loves a good fake-out death of a character. Off the top of my head - The Beast, Groot, Baymax, and now, Leia...
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Solid Blake on December 19, 2017, 06:34:32 PM
As much as I didn’t like the notorious Leia scene, it’s somewhat palatable when you break down how space actually works in a galaxy far, far away.

-There’s sound in space.
-Pressurized airlocks aren’t a thing.
-Bombing runs need to be directly over a target (gravity exists?).
-And this is where I copy and paste a link of an article explaining the scientific shortfalls of the Star Wars films, but I’m too lazy to Google right now.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: 1SO on December 19, 2017, 09:08:05 PM
Is there anything these kids could have done that would not inspire this response?
Unfortunately no. This is Star Wars and Disney and we don't live in a vacuum. Perhaps if the scene wasn't filmed like a commercial for the new Star Wars land Disney is building, but as it plays now it's as blatant a commercial as the product placement in Batman & Robin.

I just very much disagree. If it's a commercial, what is it for?
Star Wars. The films, the toys, all of the merchandise. It's a commercial to extend the brand to the next generation.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Junior on December 19, 2017, 09:33:18 PM
2. Kids playing with Luke Skywalker figurines in the final scene. BECAUSE DISNEY NEED TO SELL THE TOYZ. This doesn't sour the film as much as the previous scene, but if the Leia scene didn't exist and this one still did, it would still keep me back from overlooking the other minor problems I had with the film.
I wrote the same and since then I've been listening to other opinions that mostly love the final scene, taking it for what I believe was its true intention, showing the optimism of hope. I can believe that was the intent, but coming from a Star Wars film, one of the great merchandising tools of our lifetime, I can't get past seeing it as selling the mania to future generations.

Is there anything these kids could have done that would not inspire this response? If they were lightsabering around it wouldn't change anything, lightsabers come in all kinds of buyable shapes and sizes. I suppose the one could have just been telling the story to the others, but is that how kids work? Do they sit down to tell each other stories at that age, or do they act them out? It's been about 25 years for me, but the toy version feels like the most realistic thing they could have been doing. We got past the cynicism for The Lego Movie, when are we gonna get past it for Star Wars? (I feel I should point out that perhaps the most important plot/character point in the film, Rey's decision to not join Kylo Ren, is a choice against cynicism.)

What are you talking about? Legos ARE toys. There wasn't a lego film then legos made from that film. And I don't know about you, but I never played with soldier action figures based on real life people. Chris Kyle isn't a massively popular action figure.

Your line of argument is so confusing. It presupposes that this scene was the only thing that they could've done, that this is the only way they could've ended the movie, then you appear to negotiate as if the screenwriter was cornered by this apparently logical conclusion. People do this kind of technique all of the time, in order to justify their defense.

No, there's plenty of different conclusions they could've gone.

The entire trilogy up to this point has people telling stories. There could've been an older person of authority telling the story of Luke Skywalker with kids surrounding him. That happens, that's still true and authentic. Point being I have no problem with the idea behind the scene, just with the execution. Even the lightsaber broom isn't so much a problem because lightsabers are just swords. But action figures? Knowing the course that the film series took because of the merchandising (Harrison Ford being told by Lucas that he wouldn't kill off his character in RETURN OF THE JEDI because no one would buy dead Han dolls), it leaves a pretty sour taste in my mouth. Add to the fact that Disney is infamous for milking films for all its toy worth, it just sours more. And to tie that all up, the way it's shot, with the kid's hand moving the action figure toward the camera (!!!) triggered instant 90s toy commercials in my mind. No. It's a bad scene, regardless of the idea behind it, because the execution is god-awful.

Putting your personal attacks aside, I didn't really think this was too hard an argument to follow, but I'll lay it out again for you real slow.

1. The concern going into The Lego Movie was that it was a cynical way of boosting Lego sales.
2. While that may have been an outcome, it only worked because the movie was so good.
3. The movie itself actually undermines Lego's business model because it's about being creative outside of specific Lego sets.
4. Turns out the cynicism towards The Lego Movie is unjustified.

5. These new Star Wars movies were seen to be cash grabs by Disney. This is still ongoing, obviously, and is a backdrop to the rest of this part of the argument.
6. Concerns were brought up about the last scene because some people see it as a commercial to sell toys.
7. There are going to be toys sold based on this movie whether that scene is in it or not. Probably because there are a lot of cool designs for the ships and stuff. AKA, sure, more toys sold, but only because the movie is good.
8. The movie itself actually undermines the Star Wars business model because the Luke figurine is homemade and the kid turns his broom into a lightsaber.
9. Turns out the cynicism towards Star Wars is unjustified.

See, not that hard.

But you made me think a little, too. What's the movie about? The democratization of Star Wars. No longer is it a patriarchal lineage story, now anybody can be a Jedi. And in the final scene what do we see? Literally the most oppressed (enslaved?) kids begin to give each other hope by telling the story of Luke and (one can assume) everybody else in the resistance. Hence the shot of the ring. They do so through the use of homemade props, including a figurine made of wood and string. Then its broken up by their owner and the one kid goes outside to sweep up. But he looks to the horizon and holds not a weapon but a broom handle like its a lightsaber. That's exactly what I did as a kid. I'm sure millions of others did the same. Until this movie we had to pretend that we were being part of that patriarchal lineage. Now we (including girls and children of color) can be part of the story too. And that's like the best thing, isn't it?

So tell me how an older person of authority telling the story gets that same message across. This version uses the language of film way more than your proposed coda would as well. The story is being told in this version, yes, but it's in an alien language and only Luke Skywalker's name is recognizable. The power of the scene comes from that push into the foreground that you complain about (a shot that mirrors what we saw happen not five minutes earlier), it comes from the small gesture of the force pull of the broom. It comes from the change between tool and weapon by the kid's change in grip. As I said in my review, which I'm sure you read, Rian Johnson's greatest feat is bringing movie magic to Star Wars for the first time. The last scene is a great example of that, and that's why I don't understand the cynical reaction to it.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Solid Blake on December 20, 2017, 04:43:59 AM
(http://78.media.tumblr.com/d50cbbe7dec2263407683181ce6ba344/tumblr_mpmo3kyhZZ1rdszvgo1_400.gif)

Depressions turns to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate... leads to cynicism
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 20, 2017, 04:58:08 AM
More nitpicking post second watch:

Highs:

- How Kylo offs Snoke. I followed it better this time, it's pretty cleverly done.

Mixed:

- The mirror sequence. It looks cool, but seems too disconnected from all we know about the dark side to make sense mythologically.
- The physics of it all keep getting worse and worse but I am not sure I care anymore.

Lows:

- The implication that something might happen between Poe and Rey in the future. By Jove, I so don't want any of that.
- The pacing. I felt it much more this time. There is too much of a stretch where little action happens.
- No Knights of Ren.
- This one is a big one. TLJ makes it clear that the non-empire empire is able to field multiple star destroyers, not to mention massive dreadnoughts (with an s) and an absolutely gigantic flagship. I would have to estimate the number of their army in the millions at least. Then we have the Resistance, which counted at the very most a couple of dozen X-Wings and such in Episode VII and an army numbering in the thousands at the very most. (1) How are they a threat of any kind to Snoke? (2) How does it make any sense that the Resistance should be so minuscule in a galaxy populated by trillions of people? Even the French resistance was better at recruiting in an occupied country of only a few million.
- Kylo's posture. Stand up straight, punk, you're not fifteen anymore.
- Why aren't people hyperspacing into each other's fleets as a common space tactic all the time?
- No one mentions midichlorians.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 20, 2017, 04:59:05 AM
Junior is bae.

The best lightsaber fight is Vader v. all in Rogue One though.

Thanks friend. U 2.

But I'd also argue that Vader's is more of a slaughter than it is a fight. Is there any real, ahem, resistance to him in that hallway?

I will concede to that.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on December 20, 2017, 08:30:49 AM
- Why aren't people hyperspacing into each other's fleets as a common space tactic all the time?
Because it's suicidal?

If you want to go there, you may as well ask why a computer couldn't have jumped the ship into the enemy fleet or why all the fighters aren't piloted by droids. The simple answer is because it's more dramatic if human lives are involved...at least until we get to a point where the robots gain sentience and we're all super friendly with them and give them rights and stuff. 

Plus, this is Star Wars, which I'd argue is just as much fantasy as it is sci-fi. If you want hard science in your science fiction, you should probably go watch something heady like Primer.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 20, 2017, 08:55:10 AM
I would argue SW is more fantasy than sci-fi, so I think we're on the same page.

Now I want to watch the SW version of Battlestar Galactica.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: karlwinslow on December 20, 2017, 10:45:36 AM
Why is Laura Dern in this movie?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Solid Blake on December 20, 2017, 11:05:48 AM
- The mirror sequence. It looks cool, but seems too disconnected from all we know about the dark side to make sense mythologically.

I think it does. It gives Rey the impression that she is alone and solely dependent on herself in both her past and future. The dark side is vanity and isolation (i.e. Snoke, Palpatine) and that was presented to her in the vision. Also, if you’re into the the gray lore, you’ll see the potential for Rey to tap into both sides of the force (which is where I’m hoping episode IX is leading to).
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 20, 2017, 11:14:51 AM
I think Kylo offers more grey potential than Rey at the moment.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: philip918 on December 20, 2017, 12:50:53 PM
Luke really shouldn't have left footprints in the salt during his showdown with Kylo. Would have been a good tease. Or was it there and I missed it?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 20, 2017, 12:59:12 PM
I don't think he left footprints. Kylo did.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Junior on December 20, 2017, 04:12:19 PM
I paid attention to a few things the second time around to see if things were set up beforehand or to make sure certain things happened in a certain order.

One was the sequence of Rey's parentage reveal. Kylo tells her to search her feelings and she says first that her parents were nobody, then he confirms it. This is important, because Jedi searching their feelings means that they will find the truth based on previous movies. I'm pretty sure that ain't gonna change, at least not in the movies.

The other was whether Luke's planets really had two suns. The only shot, as far as I could see, that had the two suns was the one where he was looking at them after doing the astral projection stuff and right before he poofs. All the shots around that one show only one sun at a time, and the same goes for all previous shots on that island. It's a nifty touch, then, because it comes out of nowhere and really hits that nostalgic button (I don't think most of the OT are that pretty to look at, but that one shot sure is).
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: AliceGuyBlache on December 20, 2017, 05:23:05 PM
2. Kids playing with Luke Skywalker figurines in the final scene. BECAUSE DISNEY NEED TO SELL THE TOYZ. This doesn't sour the film as much as the previous scene, but if the Leia scene didn't exist and this one still did, it would still keep me back from overlooking the other minor problems I had with the film.
I wrote the same and since then I've been listening to other opinions that mostly love the final scene, taking it for what I believe was its true intention, showing the optimism of hope. I can believe that was the intent, but coming from a Star Wars film, one of the great merchandising tools of our lifetime, I can't get past seeing it as selling the mania to future generations.

Is there anything these kids could have done that would not inspire this response? If they were lightsabering around it wouldn't change anything, lightsabers come in all kinds of buyable shapes and sizes. I suppose the one could have just been telling the story to the others, but is that how kids work? Do they sit down to tell each other stories at that age, or do they act them out? It's been about 25 years for me, but the toy version feels like the most realistic thing they could have been doing. We got past the cynicism for The Lego Movie, when are we gonna get past it for Star Wars? (I feel I should point out that perhaps the most important plot/character point in the film, Rey's decision to not join Kylo Ren, is a choice against cynicism.)

What are you talking about? Legos ARE toys. There wasn't a lego film then legos made from that film. And I don't know about you, but I never played with soldier action figures based on real life people. Chris Kyle isn't a massively popular action figure.

Your line of argument is so confusing. It presupposes that this scene was the only thing that they could've done, that this is the only way they could've ended the movie, then you appear to negotiate as if the screenwriter was cornered by this apparently logical conclusion. People do this kind of technique all of the time, in order to justify their defense.

No, there's plenty of different conclusions they could've gone.

The entire trilogy up to this point has people telling stories. There could've been an older person of authority telling the story of Luke Skywalker with kids surrounding him. That happens, that's still true and authentic. Point being I have no problem with the idea behind the scene, just with the execution. Even the lightsaber broom isn't so much a problem because lightsabers are just swords. But action figures? Knowing the course that the film series took because of the merchandising (Harrison Ford being told by Lucas that he wouldn't kill off his character in RETURN OF THE JEDI because no one would buy dead Han dolls), it leaves a pretty sour taste in my mouth. Add to the fact that Disney is infamous for milking films for all its toy worth, it just sours more. And to tie that all up, the way it's shot, with the kid's hand moving the action figure toward the camera (!!!) triggered instant 90s toy commercials in my mind. No. It's a bad scene, regardless of the idea behind it, because the execution is god-awful.

1. The concern going into The Lego Movie was that it was a cynical way of boosting Lego sales.
2. While that may have been an outcome, it only worked because the movie was so good.
3. The movie itself actually undermines Lego's business model because it's about being creative outside of specific Lego sets.
4. Turns out the cynicism towards The Lego Movie is unjustified.


About that...

(http://lego.brickinstructions.com/70000/70816/001.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/614yeNEEm-L._SX355_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81mpnOPR0pL._SY355_.jpg)

Etc.

All of these on-the-fly creations are sold worldwide but, for what its worth, the cynicism IS sold separately.

But let's toss that argument aside for a second. Even if those on-the-fly creative sets weren't sold with their instructions on how to make them, the entire thesis of Lego has always been that you can create what you want (I've been doing it for years before THE LEGO MOVIE released), there was never a hard rule for or against doing it, the film just simply co-opts the instructions vs. creativity and poses it as an argument. And all goes back to the fact that legos are toys, I relate to legos as toys, I relate to STAR WARS as a movie. You don't seem to even acknowledge why 1SO and I are cynical about it - so much of the problems of STAR WARS do appear to it being more of a merchandise platform than how it works as a movie series. Even if it's home made, it still pulled me out of the movie, reminding me that these movies aren't made for themselves, but for merchandise. There's no commentary on this - it's just a flat acknowledgment.

Again, I love the idea behind it. I think actually what would've worked better was if the kids were playing pretend. "I'm Luke Skywalker" "I'm Darth Vader" and acting like they have the force/lightsaber. I think you would agree with that? Regardless of the action figure being homemade or not, it's still a product that's being pushed in our face by the camera. It's still saying, "You need an action figure to play STAR WARS, kids!" And that just pushes merchandise on people. Also, it's silly. These figures are already over advertised just by essence of the movie itself. You don't need more.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: don s. on December 20, 2017, 06:37:12 PM
I laughed audibly at the steam iron gag.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 22, 2017, 06:54:06 AM
The other was whether Luke's planets really had two suns. The only shot, as far as I could see, that had the two suns was the one where he was looking at them after doing the astral projection stuff and right before he poofs. All the shots around that one show only one sun at a time, and the same goes for all previous shots on that island. It's a nifty touch, then, because it comes out of nowhere and really hits that nostalgic button (I don't think most of the OT are that pretty to look at, but that one shot sure is).

I didn't even register this. You're right, it's a great little touch. The movie's full of them.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 22, 2017, 09:21:49 AM
I hadn't realised TLJ was this raunchy (http://www.vulture.com/2017/12/the-10-horniest-things-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi.html).
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: 1SO on December 23, 2017, 09:13:11 PM
The casino sequence is 17 minutes from the first shot of the yacht until Finn and Rose jump away. During that time there's a break in the middle to the other stories. I just wanted to time it since it's such a strong point of contention. Obviously it only takes a single terrible minute to ruin a film's momentum.

I still like that section. Even more the 2nd time since I knew none of the giant horses would be injured in the stampede. Still hated the kids who act like they're in a commercial for Christmas morning. That said, I didn't mind the final scene as much. Same problems, but I understood the message of hope it was actually going for.

So now Space Leia stands alone as the film's low point, though I liked the hint of things to come by the way her body goes through the center of the hologram of Snoke's ship. (Another problem is the film can't show how they get Leia from the room because the moment they opened the door, they would've all been sucked out into space. So Leia gets to the door and the next shot she's already inside.)

In the throne room - and I was just as excited knowing what was about to happen as I was when I didn't know - Snoke's dialogue of him seeing what Kylo was about to do, knowing that he's right, but has the intended target wrong, is another great moment to revisit.


Luke really shouldn't have left footprints in the salt during his showdown with Kylo. Would have been a good tease. Or was it there and I missed it?
When Luke first steps out, the salt has been blasted away and there is only red ground. So, there's no tipoff. However, once Kylo goes out to him, a layer of salt has returned to the ground and there are close-up shots of Kylo's feet exposing the red underneath his steps. Luke doesn't leave any prints, including a moment in the fight when he does a full spin on his knees under Kylo's lightsaber. They were smart to not give it away with a close-up, but it's a great detail for re-watches.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on December 23, 2017, 11:50:00 PM
Well, as I talk to friends about the film, it seems a shared sentiment that none of us liked the humor of the film and I've heard a couple of people share my sentiments that it felt like a Marvel movie in terms of tone. I wonder if I'm just fatigued of that style of humor this year after 3 Marvel films, but then my roommate was watching Empire Strikes Back and it was the Luke/Vader sequence and I couldn't help but think how much more dramatic and exciting that scene felt and how it builds to this really dramatic character moment that is played completely straight and without humor.

The closest The Last Jedi gets to this is Kylo and Rey arc and then it's undercut by constantly cutting back to silly hijinks subplots and that one awful moment where Rey fires her blaster after this tense mind connection with Kylo and then all of it's sinister feelings are swept away by a joke with Muppets reject character design creatures.

I'm not against humor in my Star Wars, but if you go watch TFA, when the dramatic moments happen, the payoff isn't some dumb joke. We don't get some goofy bit of snark before Han is killed or a gag after Maz talks to Rey about her connection to the lightsaber. Those moments feel like Star Wars.

I'm not saying we can't have a jokey, Marvelesque Star Wars film, but when you have the darkest material the series has ever dealt with, you need a more somber tone. You've got child slave labor, gun running, a beloved hero who created the villain, and a general sense that the line between good and evil isn't nearly as clear cut as this series wants it to be. And I love all those ideas, I just wish it actually treated the film with the respect it deserves instead of feeling like it falls in line with the jokey wave of Marvel films that have come to reshape blockbusters as something that needs humor ever few minutes for fear of losing the audience. It's a huge tonal disconnect for me.

Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: 1SO on December 24, 2017, 12:41:00 AM
Star Wars is an adventure, not life and death. I don't want to see it give me a serious treatment of gun running, child slave labor, mass genocide, the growing class differences, or anything else. And if I had to rank Last Jedi against this year's 3 Marvel movies in terms of jokes, laughs or overall comic tone The Last Jedi would be a distant 4th.

You mention the death of Han in TFA and I would ask you to compare it to the moment in Last Jedi where we think Leia has been blasted into space. No dumb jokes or snark. It's taken seriously, as it should be, and it's all about the looks on Leia and Kylo's faces and his reaction to the tie fighters flanking him that open fire. Or the disappearance of Luke. His final moments upon the rock are done with majesty and respect.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Solid Blake on December 24, 2017, 12:52:38 PM
Watched this for a third time today, this time in IMAX 2D and without any loudmouth kids in close proximity. This keeps getting better upon every re-watch and every plausible plot hole has been filled for me. ALL MY HOLES HAVE BEEN FILLED.  ???

Here's a couple things I really appreciated on this re-watch:

-Rashomon story sequences show how perspective can change an entire story altogether. The camera angles change subtly in all three sequences and they have incredible effect in illustrating the story teller's version of the truth.

-They did an amazing job at changing the visual makeup of certain set pieces. The red curtains burning down during the Rey/Kylo vs. Praetorian Guards, the burning/destruction of the docking bay during the Finn vs. Phasma scene, and, most importantly, the kicking up of the salt and following "saltfall" that shows how Luke's projection of himself isn't leaving footprints--very smart.

-Don't Join, aka D.J. represents our cynical/nihilistic attitude towards pretty much everything (e.g. Trump's presidency and our reluctant embrace of it), and Finn/Rose represent a society of hope/positivism. They may be seen as naive, but I'm looking for to D.J.'s character arc in the next film, as his "maybe" remark might come back to haunt him.

-This film is gorgeous. There are certain shots/sequences that give me goose bumps. Leia's distant stare across the salt flats of Crait, the slow-motion back to back fight choreography with Rey and Kylo, the island. It's pure cinematography porn and I love it.

-Rey's aesthetic transformation is cleverly done and pretty meaningful. When she falls through the "darkness" hole and goes under water, he iconic buns from The Force Awakens are washed away and he more serious The Last Jedi hair style is applied. This erases her whimsical character from the former film and sets up a more serious/conflicted Rey. It could seem like it's just hair/character design, but it really means something here.

-Poe's lesson is learned when he calls the ski-speeders to "back off" and not complete their "suicide run" against the miniaturized Death Star tech, which he would not have done if he didn't have learned from his mistakes with the bombers and the attempt at mutiny. "The greatest teacher, failure is.” - Yoda

-On the surface, this film is The Empire Strikes Back on the surface level. Unlike The Force Awakens, however, this film subverts every expectation set up by the prior films juxtaposed to paying homage/reverence to it. Abrams is like a cover band, while Johnson is more a remix-artist, taking in the familiar and making something completely new. This doesn't detract from The Force Awakens, it only elevates The Last Jedi (for me).

-They finally brought intricate/metaphorical story telling about morally complex issues to a friggen' STAR WARS movie. It's no longer about light versus dark. It delves into the grey, and I can understand how this can be divisive. But Rian Johnson is spot on in stating that "... I do think the conversations that are happening (about The Last Jedi) were going to have to happen at some point if Star Wars is going to grow, move forward and stay vital." Amen, brother.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: 1SO on December 24, 2017, 01:16:03 PM
Preach!
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Solid Blake on December 24, 2017, 01:56:29 PM
Preach!

Watching this again really crystallized why this film can be so damn polarizing. When you forget about (which you should) the frothing hardcore Star Wars fans who only care about the extended universe and how the films revolved around those "sacred texts" (Now that I think about it, you could correlate the sacred texts in the film representing Rian Johnson's view of the previously canonical extended universe)... the audience's expectations can essentially be broken down into two categories:

1. Those who wanted more answers to the mystery that J.J. sets up in The Force Awakens (à la LOST), and learn more about these seeds that were planted. There's nothing wrong with getting hooked with plot elements like these. It's a different style of story-telling and can work in every medium. These people are obviously going to be upset with this film, because Rian Johnson completely uproots all the seeds that J.J. planted. Snoke is dead, Luke is defeated, Rey's parents were alcoholic nobodies, there were no Knights of Ren and SURPRISE--none of it really matters. In the overall story of previous Star Wars films, there is a level of Nepotism fetishism: Everyone has to be a "chosen one," or the son of the son of that one guy. This is not that film. This is something different, which leads me to my second category.

2. Those who want a story where anyone can rise up and fight against evil. This is that film. It's a little blatant in the final scene, but this movie actually has the balls to delve into class categories, war economies, and personal ethics in war time. This movie states that an orphan from a junker planet can rise up, resist, and ultimately take down "chosen ones," surrounded by vanity and history. "Forget about the past, kill it you have to."--Kylo's words ring true in a lot of ways. This is a 2017 film writer/director's take on Star Wars, versus the mindset of a writer/director in the mid-70's. Society has changed since 1977. This is a fresh take on a story set in a revered Galaxy (far, far away) and one that we essentially need.

It's polarizing/divisive, and that's a good thing. I'm just hopeful that J.J. can take the reigns for episode IX with this same spirit in mind. Even if that doesn't happen and we just get another Return of the Jedi, I'm filled with a lot of optimism that a relatively "small time" writer/director can take a beloved franchise, under the all-seeing eye of mega-corporate Disney, and tell a refreshingly relevant story of his own--one that today's audience needs to hear.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on December 24, 2017, 02:03:51 PM
I want to see the best possible version of Star Wars, I want it to evolve and grow, and I think this film struggles so hard, but it's clear to me that Rian's view of what the film should be a Disney's structure of wanting to make a palatable and profitable entertainment series are at odds.

This was so close to a more complex, grown up and mature Star Wars story but it just feels like they added so much to make it appeasing to people instead of giving these subjects the gravity they deserved. I hope people don't take this the wrong way, but there was a point where I really grew to dislike the Star Wars films for having such a naive and infantile view of good and evil and the world.

This film and, to a lesser extent, Rogue One complicate this idea, but Rogue One didn't have the characters or story to draw us in. Now we have the characters and story, but the tone is completely wrong. If this is Star Wars growing up, then I think we're in the awkward puberty period. The humor is misplaced and topics are brought up only to be left by the wayside by the time the film ends.

Child slaves are bad but it's okay because we rescued those cute animals! It's a kind of emotional manipulation that tries to keep from making the audience too uncomfortable and I'm sorry but if you want Star Wars to grow up, there needs to be uncomfortable moments that don't get undercut by self-aware movie humor. But apparently that's what the kids dig these days and we sure want to make the kids happy so we can get that merchandise money! This does make me appreciate the slave child ending a bit more as Rian tries to draw the audience back to the fact that while these children are enslaved, at least the Rebellion gives them hope for freedom.

Maybe on a rewatch I won't feel like there's such a huge disconnect, I want to love what this film is doing but it squanders so much of potential by taking the tone of another jokey Marvel film. Just in the last two days I've talked to three more people who agree the humor is misplaced. Rian Johnson isn't a Taika Waititi or a James Gunn, he doesn't have the comedy chops that those two bring and I think that shows. If this had the tone of Brick or Looper, I could see this working so much better.

I couldn't shake the feeling that I was being pandered to and treated like a child by Disney while Rian tried his best to give us something grown up. Maybe I'm asking for the series to mature too fast, maybe this is the compromise we have to have if we're going to get a Star Wars film every year for the rest of our lives. I admire the hell out of this film's story, I just wish the tone didn't feel like every other major Marvel blockbuster of the past few years.

Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 24, 2017, 02:15:05 PM
Preach!

I echo everything SB said.

Child slaves are bad but it's okay because we rescued those cute animals! It's a kind of emotional manipulation that tries to keep from making the audience too uncomfortable and I'm sorry but if you want Star Wars to grow up, there needs to be uncomfortable moments that don't get undercut by self-aware movie humor.

I have the same quibbles, but this movie is SW moving in the right direction. Hopefully, Abrams doesn't drop the ball and is able to nurture Johnson's seeds into something large and green and floral that makes this metaphor work. TLJ brings complexity to SW in multiple ways, the social commentary is just one of them. There is also the existence of ambiguous characters, force users and norms, meaningful character arcs, etc. The criticism of the weapons industry does not land, but that is not true of all of Johnson's gambits.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on December 24, 2017, 02:19:38 PM
I wanted to love this film so much and the farther away I get from it, the more problems I have with the film. Maybe after the holidays I'll go to an IMAX screening alone and see if I feel differently.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 24, 2017, 02:26:19 PM
I didn't find the images much better at my IMAX screening, although the 3D did make movement annoyingly blurry.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Bondo on December 27, 2017, 06:35:15 PM
I liked the casino scene because at this particular point in time I need to see rich people get their shit tore up.

Anyway, I am shipping:
Kylo Ren and Rey
Kylo Ren and Hux
Rey and Finn
Finn and Rose
Finn and Poe
Holdo and Leia
Chewy and a Porg

Basically the world of Star Wars is one big polycule.

Anyway, I have more thinking to do about this film. My first instinct is that I liked it, but less than TFA or Rogue One. I like some of the ideas the film is going toward but am not sure it entirely gets there.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teproc on December 28, 2017, 11:30:34 AM
In the confrontation with Snoke, when he moves Rey around I thought the way he did it looked familiar, but couldn't quite put my finger on where I'd seen it before. I remember now ! It's exactly what Yubaba does to Sen (soon to become Chihiro) in Spirited Away. Neat.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Telegram Sam on December 29, 2017, 03:26:52 AM
Rey's parents need booze money but can afford space flight.

I missed something along the way if anyone wants to straighten me out.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Telegram Sam on December 29, 2017, 06:01:18 AM
Oh, a magical kid, a broom and his two friends. I just got it. Duh.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jared on December 29, 2017, 11:04:18 AM
Maybe I am just a big snowflake but I really got good guy death fatigue in this movie. I realize all the previous films have a scene or two where the minor Rebel characters are getting picked off one by one, but damn, it really felt like it was happening the whole runtime in this movie. The bombing run at the beginning, the evacuation ships, the landspeeder fight, etc. I felt a lot the same way about Rouge One.

I know it is called Star Wars and all, but I don't love feeling so much more "war" and so much less adventure if that makes sense.   
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: iQuanah on December 30, 2017, 12:31:42 AM
Lots of great points on here. Personally I've learned to go into a Star Wars film not expecting ESB. It's really difficult to capture the excitement of those original films and the luster of their newness to cinema. Any SW film going forward will be divisive. If that's the case, then I'll just watch them as a fan instead of a critic.

However, I was happy to see Yoda. I'm glad we didn't get the prequel Yoda, but the Yoda we knew from ESB. Brought some warmth to my chest.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Osprey on January 09, 2018, 12:09:56 AM
This was a real mess.  I will rewatch the original trilogy but I don't think I need to see more going forward.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 18, 2018, 12:19:42 PM
It is a bit messy, perhaps, but what a glorious mess it is.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: philip918 on January 18, 2018, 12:25:08 PM
I feel like the ven diagram of people who hate The Last Jedi and people begging for the Zack Snyder Director's Cut of Justice League is a perfect circle.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: pixote on January 18, 2018, 12:30:11 PM
I feel like the ven diagram of people who hate The Last Jedi and people begging for the Zack Snyder Director's Cut of Justice League is a perfect circle.

Difficult not to feel
a little bit
disappointed

                     - 3 Libras

pixote
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 25, 2018, 05:40:24 AM
Alternate scenario question:

As I was watching the movie, the first time, when Kylo extended his hand to Rey a is part of me hoped she would take it and he would call of the attack on the Resistance and then things could get really interesting.

I love the movie but part of me still wishes that had happened. Kylo and Rey, representatives of both sides of the force, would have been at the head of the group controlling the entire Galaxy. Peace could have been made with the Resistance and they could have done whatever they wanted. No more Jedis and Sith but something new. Maybe a benevolent Empire. Ambiguity all around and perhaps a new source of conflict could have emerged in the last half hour to be resolved in the third movie.

I wonder if anyone else feels the same.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Solid Blake on January 25, 2018, 06:09:09 AM
The latest spoiler-filled Slash Filmcast with Rian Johnson is very illuminating/fun. Check it out.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Osprey on January 29, 2018, 09:50:10 PM
I feel like the ven diagram of people who hate The Last Jedi and people begging for the Zack Snyder Director's Cut of Justice League is a perfect circle.

Rian Johnson better hope episode 9 doesn't have Justice League's trajectory from BvS. He hopefully will do a better job when he has control over the whole trilogy.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: jdc on January 29, 2018, 09:56:30 PM
The latest spoiler-filled Slash Filmcast with Rian Johnson is very illuminating/fun. Check it out.

Agreed, every time I hear the guy, I like him more. Still not too hot on TLJ but will give it a proper rewatch after it gets released on BD. 
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Solid Blake on March 29, 2018, 07:40:59 PM
If you picked up TLJ on Blu, make sure to check out the feature length documentary “The Director and the Jedi.” It’s a superb look at the filmmaking process/business and a rather intimate look at some actors we’ve held in high regard for a long time. Definitely a must see for any movie fanatic.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Knocked Out Loaded on April 08, 2018, 05:15:17 PM
If you picked up TLJ on Blu, make sure to check out the feature length documentary “The Director and the Jedi.” It’s a superb look at the filmmaking process/business and a rather intimate look at some actors we’ve held in high regard for a long time. Definitely a must see for any movie fanatic.
It is a neat documentary that almost made me want to see The Last Jedi! I liked the casino scenes very much and the Irish scenery was incredibly beautiful.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: AliceGuyBlache on June 04, 2018, 09:26:04 PM
This video makes the best case as to why THE LAST JEDI is not a good movie I have ever seen/read. I would also call it "Why Kylo Ren is the Best Character in All of Star Wars".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLYUc5t6wag
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: 1SO on June 04, 2018, 10:40:41 PM
Further evidence that you and I watch movies in very different ways. Monomyth, Carl Jung and Robert A Johnson never enter into my thinking when I'm being entertained by the adventure. The video largely plays the argument that Force Awakens fails because it too closely resembles A New Hope while Last Jedi fails harder by not following expectations. Ultimately, the same video supports why I like The Last Jedi so much and why Benecio del Toro's DJ might be the best character in all of Star Wars.

The video connected to something called Why Star Wars: The Last Jedi is a Complete Cinematic Failure (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ECwhB21Pnk#noembed), which is as overinflated in its opinion as the title suggests. And yet, look past the constant negativity and general poor manners and the points made in that video is the best argument I've seen yet against the film. I don't agree with it, but I very much understand it and how it could lead someone to view the series as fanboy knock-offs.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: oldkid on June 05, 2018, 12:17:46 AM
I like the video and generally agree with the analysis of how Johnson is trying to break down the binary viewpoint and affirming that the Force is self-balancing.  But I think the final third of the film re-affirms the fact of the Force self-balancing.  If Rey had agreed with Ren to rule the galaxy together, it would have only been superficially a balance.  In reality, the dark side would have been in charge, with both seeking power without balance.  The balance is in the conflict.  Thus, for the Force to achieve balance, the Force had to re-establish the power of the good, and the conflict must continue. 

What I would love to see is the conflict happening in something other than war or destruction, but that is kinda the calling card of the dark side, so I guess not.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: AliceGuyBlache on June 05, 2018, 03:36:00 PM
I like the video and generally agree with the analysis of how Johnson is trying to break down the binary viewpoint and affirming that the Force is self-balancing.  But I think the final third of the film re-affirms the fact of the Force self-balancing.  If Rey had agreed with Ren to rule the galaxy together, it would have only been superficially a balance. In reality, the dark side would have been in charge, with both seeking power without balance.  The balance is in the conflict.  Thus, for the Force to achieve balance, the Force had to re-establish the power of the good, and the conflict must continue. 

What I would love to see is the conflict happening in something other than war or destruction, but that is kinda the calling card of the dark side, so I guess not.

Would it, though? This scene is preceded with Kylo killing Snoke and the two killing the rest of the guards. Kylo is willing to explore a middle ground that Luke alluded to (true balance) but this was crushed with her deciding not to join him, so the two will always have to fight, the cycle begins again, meaning that the poor will be continue to be exploited through the myth that salvation will come through the light side (but it never really comes for them - as we have seen, the Jedi Order was thoroughly incompetent once they had absolute power). If the Jedi Order had control during the prequels (and lost) then the Sith had control in the original trilogy (and lost), then are all we going back to is a complete reiteration of the original trilogy?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: oldkid on June 06, 2018, 03:02:21 PM
I think Ren lied about his motivation in the red room.  If he didn't, why did he spend the final third of the film trying to eradicate the rebellion, to eradicate the light?  Because Ray said "no"?  I think he pursued the eradication of the light because he felt that he could be the personification of the balance on his own, but his actions say that he is on the dark side.  If he wasn't the dark side, the force wouldn't have called up Ray from nowheresville.

Ren, of course, is excellent at deceiving, at hiding his thoughts.  So I suspect that he was doing the same with Ray, but that Ray suspected what his real motivation was-- to put her aside as a competitor.  And the final part of the film showed that Ren's real motivation was to eradicate the light side.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: AliceGuyBlache on June 06, 2018, 03:13:53 PM
I think Ren lied about his motivation in the red room.  If he didn't, why did he spend the final third of the film trying to eradicate the rebellion, to eradicate the light?  Because Ray said "no"?  I think he pursued the eradication of the light because he felt that he could be the personification of the balance on his own, but his actions say that he is on the dark side.  If he wasn't the dark side, the force wouldn't have called up Ray from nowheresville.

Ren, of course, is excellent at deceiving, at hiding his thoughts.  So I suspect that he was doing the same with Ray, but that Ray suspected what his real motivation was-- to put her aside as a competitor.  And the final part of the film showed that Ren's real motivation was to eradicate the light side.


Ah, but he wasn't moving forward to eradicate the Light side. He was moving forward to eradicate the Rebellion. Remember DJ? How he saw that the Rebellion bought their weapons from the same manufacturer as the First Order? The Rebellion should be destroying the manufacturers, the rich - but their goal IS absolute power over the First Order, not a direct challenge to destroy the systems that help create then benefit these two opposing sides. Rey's arc in the first movie was to believe that her parents would still come for her. Rey's arc in this is, again, her belief that the Rebellion is the correct side. She is, in many ways, a conservative or a neoliberal, believing that the solution is ultimately the eradication of the Sith and that that would solve everything, but as we have seen with THE FORCE AWAKENS, everything just slid back into place.

I think the point that you can come back to me with is that - ok, Kylo should eradicate the Rebellion, but he should also eradicate his own First Order. That's what remains to be seen, but he already took the first steps to do so.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: AliceGuyBlache on June 06, 2018, 03:21:32 PM
Something dawned on me that Rey needs to lead Kylo to the path of the upper 1% - the manufacturers - and perhaps that's the arc of the third movie in this trilogy. I ultimately doubt that this would happen, but it could serve as the major counterpoint. What Kylo sees is utter destruction of everything, what Rey sees is destruction of the systems that got them there. Is there a third viewpoint?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on June 06, 2018, 04:00:17 PM
I think Ren lied about his motivation in the red room.  If he didn't, why did he spend the final third of the film trying to eradicate the rebellion, to eradicate the light?  Because Ray said "no"?  I think he pursued the eradication of the light because he felt that he could be the personification of the balance on his own, but his actions say that he is on the dark side.  If he wasn't the dark side, the force wouldn't have called up Ray from nowheresville.

Ren, of course, is excellent at deceiving, at hiding his thoughts.  So I suspect that he was doing the same with Ray, but that Ray suspected what his real motivation was-- to put her aside as a competitor.  And the final part of the film showed that Ren's real motivation was to eradicate the light side.

I disagree. I think Ren attacked the rebels out of spite. He threw one of his tantrums to get back at Ray by annihilating the people she chose over him. You make him seem calculating when he is unhinged.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: oldkid on June 06, 2018, 05:24:09 PM
And now we get bogged down in motivations, etc, which isn't going to be determined except in our own assumptions.

An attack on the manufacturers would be great, but I agree, I don't think that's going to happen. 

Nevertheless, Rian Johnson injected so many new ideas, I think there are a number of excellent directions to go.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on June 07, 2018, 03:12:18 AM
And we all know how JJ Abrams likes to take franchises into new, bold directions.

(one might say, boldly go where no man has gone before)
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: oldkid on June 08, 2018, 12:36:57 AM

I disagree. I think Ren attacked the rebels out of spite. He threw one of his tantrums to get back at Ray by annihilating the people she chose over him. You make him seem calculating when he is unhinged.

Thought about this today.

Ren is much like Anakin, impulsive, moving toward the light one minute and dark the next, in no way the kind of person who can help bring balance.  The dark side seems to like impulsive young men and older men who thirst after power.  How could such an impulsive, bitter young man be partner to Ray's good side?  How could this bring balance?  Perhaps Ray was looking for a partner in the force, or she just liked his abs, but in the end, he would be an abusive partner.  She should absolutely say no.  And, again, the final third of the movie shows why.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on June 08, 2018, 03:45:39 AM
The evidence doesn't suggest that to be the nature of the dark side. We know of three other dark side practitioners, and none of them are impulsive. Maul is shown to be competent and systematic, if a little bit impatient during fights (and opposed to the dude who'll just take a break to do yoga I mean)  ; Dooku is suave and always keeps a cool head ; Sidious is so patient and restrained he pulled off a decades long plan to seize power. Little about the movies informs you of the differences between the dark and light sides. It's mostly about being a good guy or a douche with a choking fetish. If you're not okay dorey with genocide, then you're probably on the light side. TLJ's teaching scenes are perhaps the most that's ever told us about them.

I like to look at the decanonised EU for insight. There's a comic book that talks about being one with the force versus forcing your will upon it. They also mention things like controlling your passions instead of giving into them, which the movies also go into.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: oldkid on June 08, 2018, 10:09:10 AM
I said that impulsive young men is one type that the dark side attracts, probably because they give into their weaknesses at critical moments.  In fact, I don't think that an impulsive person is the heart of the dark side, as you say.  I am saying that there are certain personality types that tend to be in the dark side.

But the real point I have is that Ren is projecting a persona, which Ray was attracted to, but I think Ray saw through that persona and saw that Ren made an inadequate partner.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on June 08, 2018, 11:35:49 AM
That relationship is one of the highlights of the movie and here are my two bits. Ray is attracted to the vulnerability in Ren. It mirrors her own, as both are desperate to find new father figures and teachers who will fill their need for approval. Ren found a master in Snoke and Vader is the one he really looks to but none can give him what he needs. Ray wants to find her parents and in them a confirmation of her worth. There is also something to be said about wanting to save/change the bad boy in pain, a common motivation in this kind of relationships, that is perhaps more true of women then men (at least for the bad boy part).

Forced intimacy is also a powerful engine. They've experienced traumatic events together and they have to subsequently share their pain when they're at their lowest. Ren when he's rebuked by Snoke for his failures, Ray amidst her frustration with Luke. Not to mention the whole you killed my father figure type who was your real dad thing.

And possibly, Kylo being more experienced and knowledgeable, not just about the Force, but about the entire universe of characters and events Rey is only just penetrating. That is always a draw.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: ferris on July 06, 2018, 02:26:49 PM
The latest spoiler-filled Slash Filmcast with Rian Johnson is very illuminating/fun. Check it out.

Agreed, every time I hear the guy, I like him more. Still not too hot on TLJ but will give it a proper rewatch after it gets released on BD.

This is so good...yes.

(Equally good is their takedown of "Solo: A Star Wars Movie" in a much later episode)
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on July 09, 2018, 05:16:59 AM
I think that's where I heard that Rey learned to handle a lightsaber through her connection to Ren, and that made everything better.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: philip918 on July 09, 2018, 02:14:43 PM
I think that's where I heard that Rey learned to handle a lightsaber through her connection to Ren, and that made everything better.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-rey-lightsaber-kylo-ren/
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: Solid Blake on July 10, 2018, 10:22:41 AM
I think that's where I heard that Rey learned to handle a lightsaber through her connection to Ren, and that made everything better.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-rey-lightsaber-kylo-ren/

This is great.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi
Post by: DarkeningHumour on July 10, 2018, 10:44:59 AM
I hadn't read that, but I like it.