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Filmspotting Message Boards => Movie Talk (Spoiler Edition) => Topic started by: Junior on January 20, 2018, 06:12:40 PM

Title: Phantom Thread
Post by: Junior on January 20, 2018, 06:12:40 PM
I'm sure others are gonna see this one this weekend and I want to get some other thoughts on it before I probably see it again this week sometime.

I think this movie is amazing to watch. Every shot is really interesting to look at. I just don't really know what to make of it.

What did you think?
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Will on January 24, 2018, 12:55:49 AM
Gorgeous, but my least favorite PTA since HARD EIGHT. I like ambitious (THERE WILL BE BLOOD, THE MASTER) or wild (INHERENT VICE, PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE) PTA, not intimate character study PTA (HARD EIGHT, MAGNOLIA, and now, PHANTOM THREAD). I don't think he's particularly good at it. The dinner scene is just so bad, yet it's the crux of the film. Over-the-top improv that just stews in an awkward middle ground between is this funny or is this serious? But the whole movie is like that. I wish the ending was the midpoint instead of just a morbid twist.

That said, as opposed to both HARD EIGHT and MAGNOLIA, there's just so little characterization to Alma outside of her relationship with Reynolds which is so unfortunate because she's the main character. Her life seems to be completely centered around whether or not he loves her. (I won't lie - a little uncomfortable to be even vaguely gender critical on this forum anymore). I wish we knew more of who Alma is as a character. I didn't care that much about Reynolds. We got it, he's a beloved, overly serious genius who everyone loves plus he has serious mommy issues which affects his relationships with women.

These two reviews from letterboxd hit home:

Quote
C.J.
Impeccably crafted, but I'm just tired of a lot of what this movie covers. I'm tired of a lead character who's just an inherent artistic genius. I'm tired of the assumption that I have to also believe this character is some artistic genius, and that I have to give a shit about them because of their genius. I'm tired of Freud, really. And mommy issues. And character psychology. And you're really gonna hinge this thing on a "har har" twist involving Munchausen by proxy? I didn't like the ending. It just reminded me of Eminem's music video for Cleanin' Out My Closet.

It's a fine movie. PTA and everyone give it their all, and I was really enjoying it up until the surprise dinner. The shot of DDL and Vicky Krieps driving around at night with the headlights illuminating their surroundings is such a great shot that reflects the surreal, fantasy bubble that Woodcock lives in, along with the thrill of it that Alma feels getting introduced to it. I wanted more of that. Maybe I'll grow to like it more seeing it again if I can bypass the story and take in everything else. Who knows.

Quote
Ben Radetski
This doesn't get good for quite awhile, and even when it does it's terribly unfocused, but I for the most part found myself intrigued. The first half is structured like an extended montage, it's meandering -- here I thought Anderson had matured since his pre-Master phase, but for much of the film he appears to revert to loudness rather than quietness. Greenwood's score is far better than say Brion's in Punch-Drunk Love, but it still drowns out much of the film -- I wish Anderson would let the toast-crunching and butter-sizzling carry the film's beauty, even pure silence would be welcome, but alas this is not the case. There's one good music cue in the whole film (after Woodcock's line about the air of quite death), it's a powerful piece by Greenwood, but by this point in the film his score had become numbing. Even without the music, Anderson cuts far too often, the film for the most part never gets a chance to properly breath.

The whole film feels like a lot of set up without much pay off, but after the asparagus scene it really starts to pick up. Vicky Krieps gives an incredible performance, perhaps even better than Day-Lewis -- Anderson directs her quite beautifully, he gets the most out of every gesture, every glance. There's a number of interesting pieces in the film's second half: the shot inside the teapot as Alma sprinkles the mushroom, the beautiful compositions in Woodcock's room as Alma cares for him, Woodcock hallucinating about his mother, the lengthy take of the marriage proposal, breakfast on their honeymoon, the New Year's Eve party, the music cue I mentioned in the previous paragraph etc. -- but it never really feels like a complete film: these elements are scattered and too much space remains in between.

I think what really pushes me into liking the film overall is the omelet scene, which I found very moving. The scene, and everything that follows, seems to imply that what is occurring between Reynolds and Alma is completely acceptable and a natural product of love. Although morbid, Woodcock is making a sacrifice for his partner, for the better of the relationship. But still, Anderson spends far too long getting to this conclusion, I guess I'm just forgiving because I was moved, for whatever reason. Patrick Devitt says the film is a study of autism, which is probably the most interesting reading of the film I've heard so far.

Edited - expanded thoughts.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Junior on January 24, 2018, 11:34:30 AM
Interesting. I too had some concerns about Alma's main motivation being to care for a guy who can't handle his own genius and takes it out on other people. It seems a product of an old way of thinking where women can only be carers because they are inherently caring. But of course Alma is also an individual (something I see more in the film than you and those you cite seem to see, based primarily on her impulse to push back after the first date) and it is possible for a woman to want to care for another person without also saying that all women desire to care for people. I think the movie does a pretty great job of letting us know that these are two particular and distinct individuals whose actions are hard to map onto the rest of society. That's part of why they fit together so well (see also Punch Drunk Love and Magnolia and pretty much every other PTA movie). Cyril is also an important role to consider from a feminist critique perspective, her role is kind of similar to Alma's eventual role in terms of being Reynolds' right-hand (wo)man, but her method is almost completely different (though both are based on an air of command). Cyril and Alma both fill a motherly role for Reynolds, but they are very very different kinds of mothers and that's something to consider.

I'm going to see this again on Friday and I think that'll help me decide if I like the music in the film or not. I think it's beautiful music but it might be overused in the film.

I think it's also difficult to boil Reynolds down to his mommy issues. In fact, I think that scene with his mom indicates not that he's overly obsessed with his mother but that he was missing her and appreciating what she did for him. I didn't sense in that scene a desire on his part to rush over and kiss her feet (if he could) but rather that he wanted to let her know that he has continued to hold her in regard and near to his heart. If that's a mommy complex, sign me up for therapy.

I hope you know that you can be critical of gender (or whatever else) as much as you want in this community but you have to also acknowledge that your thoughts on the subject are not the only possible thoughts to hold, and that when others disagree they aren't automatically wrong but rather thinking about things differently. I've read enough feminist theory to know that there is never one way of thinking about a thing, and there are always multiple perspectives even when they come from a similar direction.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Bondo on February 02, 2018, 08:15:09 PM
Well done PTA, you've really outdone yourself here. I thought you made bad films with There Will Be Blood and The Master, but wow is this obnoxiously bad. I mean, obviously what I thought the world needed most was the story of a tormented genius for whom all those around him are subjegated to his whims at their own cost because that's just the price of genius. Into that void steps Alma. I'm not sure when the charming part of the film was that gets her on the hook, but on the hook she falls.

Of course, if it seemed problematic on gender grounds when she was subject to his emotional abuse, her enhanced measures to bring him under her whims (arguably at cost of his genius) might be even worse. I mean, I guess there's some mommy issues/kink aspect that gives the whole tale a happy (?) ending but still, this was a real drag for me.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Junior on February 03, 2018, 08:14:30 AM
I wrote a thing about 3 other movies that helped me see what Phantom Thread was doing: http://www.horrorhomeroom.com/3-films-can-help-understand-phantom-thread/

The 3 movies are Rebecca (obviously), Psycho, and Personal Shopper.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Keil S. on February 07, 2018, 04:32:21 PM
Now I remember why I stopped visiting webboards for so long.

Well done PTA, you've really outdone yourself here. I thought you made bad films with There Will Be Blood and The Master, but wow is this obnoxiously bad. I mean, obviously what I thought the world needed most was the story of a tormented genius for whom all those around him are subjegated to his whims at their own cost because that's just the price of genius. Into that void steps Alma. I'm not sure when the charming part of the film was that gets her on the hook, but on the hook she falls.

Of course, if it seemed problematic on gender grounds when she was subject to his emotional abuse, her enhanced measures to bring him under her whims (arguably at cost of his genius) might be even worse. I mean, I guess there's some mommy issues/kink aspect that gives the whole tale a happy (?) ending but still, this was a real drag for me.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Bondo on February 07, 2018, 06:47:19 PM
Now I remember why I stopped visiting webboards for so long.

You can choose to ignore the review or engage with it, the option you chose is not one that will get you far on a forum meant for interaction. One thing I would posit: reviews here don't necessarily stand on their own. The tone/nature of that review works on the assumption that most of the people reading come into it with certain knowledge about my writing style, my history with PTA, etc. I recognize this puts a bit of a burden on a new member but is kind of the nature of an established community.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Keil S. on February 07, 2018, 11:16:14 PM
My instinct (and old habit) would be to reply rather caustically and sarcastically (I suppose I've already done that to a degree), but your reply was rather polite considering the tone of my initial response, so I'll just say that I am baffled that someone would have such low opinions of both There Will Be Blood and The Master (not to mention Phantom Thread).  I suppose it might help to know which films you actually love most, but it still probably wouldn't make your previous review any easier to swallow.  I suppose I'll have to simply disagree with virtually everything you thought.

Now I remember why I stopped visiting webboards for so long.

You can choose to ignore the review or engage with it, the option you chose is not one that will get you far on a forum meant for interaction. One thing I would posit: reviews here don't necessarily stand on their own. The tone/nature of that review works on the assumption that most of the people reading come into it with certain knowledge about my writing style, my history with PTA, etc. I recognize this puts a bit of a burden on a new member but is kind of the nature of an established community.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Keil S. on February 07, 2018, 11:17:43 PM
Plus, I really didn't come here to pick fights (been down that road many times in decades past).  I'm just a massive PTA fan (and have been for over 20 years), so it was a tough thing to read so soon after actively joining this community.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Bondo on February 08, 2018, 07:15:36 AM
I would say I mildly enjoyed Boogie Nights, Magnolia and Punch Drunk Love era PTA. There Will Be Blood marked a bit of a shift and it, The Master and Phantom Thread felt more alienating. TWBB in particular I just found Daniel Plainview an obnoxiously over the top character/performance. I didn't believe in anyone in that film. This trio seems more focused on this sort of unpleasant male figure(s), which is generally a personal lacuna. The male anti-hero is not a character I connect with generally so as PTA has moved in that direction, I've moved away.

With Phantom Thread, I find it interesting that the Slate Culture Gabfest discussion even suggested it might have a feminist aspect, which is so contrary to the film that I saw but worth considering I just saw it wrong. I suppose to understand my review I should explain that gender critical/feminist interpretation of cinema is one of my primary lenses. So in my seeing troubled gender implications of the film, it felt in some ways like the culmination of PTA's trend towards this masculine character that I was already distanced from.

BTW, this is my current top-100 (http://forum.filmspotting.net/index.php?topic=6317.msg855144#msg855144).
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Keil S. on February 08, 2018, 11:14:37 AM
Interesting list.  Plenty of them I love, some Iíve yet to see, and some that I wouldnít rank that highly still made for interesting choices and a truly personal, colorful, and inspired list.  Side note: I love In Bruges so much that itís largely why I included a brief stop in Bruges on our trip to Europe last summer.  Also, any list that bothers to include Superstar: The Karen Carpenter Story has to be respected.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Bondo on February 08, 2018, 02:40:48 PM
I was In Bruges last August for the same reason  :D
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: don s. on February 08, 2018, 07:34:59 PM
Now I remember why I stopped visiting webboards for so long.


My instinct (and old habit) would be to reply rather caustically and sarcastically
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: pixote on February 08, 2018, 10:38:14 PM
I keep hoping people start a fight here so I have reason to delete this whole conversation. And then people will ask where the thread went, and I'll be like, "What'd you expect? It was a phantom thread."

Keep visiting web boards! Be the change you want to see in the posts!

pixote
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Bondo on February 09, 2018, 05:52:09 AM
Well, that pun might get the fight started. Shameless. ;D
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Smoke on February 09, 2018, 08:34:38 PM
I was warned that the Master was a letdown, so strongly that it was several years before I caught up with it on video...I vowed never to make that mistake with PTA again. I'll keep my short review more to standard movie stuff and leave the feminist critiques to others. I wouldn't call Phantom Thread a letdown but I would say it doesn't have the "punch" of most PTA movies. It moves slowly and is quieter in general than any others I can think of. There was literally a person snoring several seats over. It isn't that it's slow by "art movie" standards, but most PTA can appeal to more of a standard Hollywood audience and I just don't see that with this one. For my money I found it consistently engaging and I feel I need to see it again not to decide if I love or hate it, but just to luxuriate in it and presumably notice some things I didn't the first time. A few things seem to beg for clarification, and while I doubt I'll find any definitive answers I'm fairly confident I'll find more to think about and explore. I don't think the (wonderful) music was overused, I think the visuals would be worth watching no matter what, and I think acting this good from the 3 principals could rescue just about anything. And that's enough about my thinking.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Beavermoose on February 12, 2018, 02:28:41 AM
I think people sort of forget how schlocky pta movies are because they always look really nice.
I found it to be mostly a comedy. I'm not sure how tongue-in-cheek the film was intended to be but Day Lewis is just such an asshole, such a clichť of the tormented genius that I couldn't help be laugh at everything he did. I sort of just really liked watching the two of them argue considering how mismatched they actually are. The dinner scene was great, with Alma emoting scoffs and sounds instead of words. When they're playing backgammon as well, he just gets so patronizing.
I think we are expecting a deep character study because we are given the esthetic of one but the film is actually more like a black comedy, the ending sort of cements that.
I don't think it's a masterpiece but I enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: °Keith! on February 13, 2018, 03:29:02 PM
I keep hoping people start a fight here so I have reason to delete this whole conversation. And then people will ask where the thread went, and I'll be like, "What'd you expect? It was a phantom thread."

Keep visiting web boards! Be the change you want to see in the posts!

pixote

I came here for this... carry on with your discussion of actual things.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: smirnoff on February 16, 2018, 02:20:18 AM
It wasn't a complete slog but I must say I wasn't thrilled that these were the characters I was going to be stuck with for the duration. An unpleasant genius and the woman who inexplicably can't seem to live without him. One is as frustrating as the other. Their existence and the film's decision to focus on them gives rise to two questions: Why is he unpleasant, and why does she love him. Two questions which may share one answer.

Anyways, you do what you can over the course of a couple of hours. You study the characters, watch their reactions... it's all very interesting, I'm sure.

Behold! Two passive aggressive people try to have an argument!
"I purposesly gave you butter!"
"I purposely ignored your giving me butter!"

It truth these were the highlights of the film for me. Noisy tea pouring, noisy bread buttering, getting lectured about backgammon... these two deserve each other. Those parts made me laugh.

There are moments when I almost came around to the point of rooting for the characters. I thought, if they could just have a breakthrough of some sort they might be less unhappy. But that went away when I realized they weren't unhappy. This is actually just them. They don't change, they just come to an understanding. Good for them. Happy ending.

5/10
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Teproc on February 20, 2018, 10:13:47 AM
Re: the "tormented genius" thing... is he a genius ? I don't know that he is, and I don't know that the film cares whether or not he is: he's a boy. She calls him that after their first meeting, and that's really the crux of their relationship: he's an boy who wants his mother, but he's talented (maybe a genius but again I don't think it's really the point, as PTA never really tries to convince us he is), which is not exactly the most original character either... but the film is not about him anyway.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: DarkeningHumour on March 07, 2018, 12:17:50 PM
I should not have expected a PTA movie to be an easy thing to digest. It did not make it easy to vote for the Filmspots.

My first thoughts are that this falls into the The Master category of PTA movies, which is unfortunate, because it is the category of movies I have trouble connecting with and grasping. I had an almost immediate and strong connection with all his other movies bar Hard 8 (and perhaps Inherent Vice, which I had to rewatch).

Bloody gorgeous though.

Well done PTA, you've really outdone yourself here. I thought you made bad films with There Will Be Blood and The Master, but wow is this obnoxiously bad. I mean, obviously what I thought the world needed most was the story of a tormented genius for whom all those around him are subjegated to his whims at their own cost because that's just the price of genius. Into that void steps Alma. I'm not sure when the charming part of the film was that gets her on the hook, but on the hook she falls.

Of course, if it seemed problematic on gender grounds when she was subject to his emotional abuse, her enhanced measures to bring him under her whims (arguably at cost of his genius) might be even worse. I mean, I guess there's some mommy issues/kink aspect that gives the whole tale a happy (?) ending but still, this was a real drag for me.

Hmm, my first sentiment was that Alma was an annoying passive aggressive immature woman who was in the wrong every time they had an argument. That was until things progressed into another direction.

I would recommend the Next Picture Show's episode on the movie, Bondo. It might reframe it in a more positive view for you (I still have to listen to the Filmspotting episode).

Plus, I really didn't come here to pick fights

Considering your first sentence here was a dismissal of Bondo's post, I would suggest you are not very good at it.

I keep hoping people start a fight here so I have reason to delete this whole conversation. And then people will ask where the thread went, and I'll be like, "What'd you expect? It was a phantom thread."

pixote

 ;D
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: fredf7 on July 21, 2018, 11:15:15 AM
Call me unimaginative, but when a movie depends on a plot development involving a woman poisoning her lover almost to death so that she can nurse him back to health and he will realize how much he needs her--and then doing it again, with his knowledge and acquiescence--that just takes me out of the film and makes me wonder if this is a serious picture or an SNL skit.  Do people actually behave this way>?  Or are we supposed to overlook--or find meaning in-- the absurdity b/c PTA is a "genius"?  Guess I just couldn't play along.  But would appreciate enlightenment on this point from anyone here.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 08, 2018, 01:57:03 PM
Yes they can behave that way in real life.
If you can imagine it and then fetishize it, then I guarantee that it exists.
To me, PT falls into the same category as Eyes Wide Shut. Itís a film ostensibly about a relationship but, itís really a placemarker for how some power relationships manifest within the boundaries of love, or whatís perceived by society as love.
In other words, there are some CINECAST!ed up ways that people go about creating a workable relationship for themselves. Everyoneís love language is different and there might actually be someone who only feels loved when their significant other nurtures them back from a life or death event after mentally abusing them to half heartedly try to kill them. Symbolic actions matter to some.
Itís not my thing but who am I to judge?
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: oldkid on August 09, 2018, 12:05:04 AM
Yes they can behave that way in real life.
If you can imagine it and then fetishize it, then I guarantee that it exists.
To me, PT falls into the same category as Eyes Wide Shut. Itís a film ostensibly about a relationship but, itís a placemarker for how some power relationships manifest within the boundaries of love, or whatís perceived by society as love.
In other words, there are some CINECAST!ed up ways that people go about creating a workable relationship for themselves. Everyoneís love language is different and there might actually be someone who only feels loved when their significant other nurtures them back from a life or death event after mentally abusing them to half heartedly try to kill them. Symbolic actions matter to some.
Itís not my thing but who am I to judge?

This.  I have nothing else to add.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: DarkeningHumour on August 09, 2018, 03:42:05 AM
I don't believe anyone loves me unless they're actively trying to kill me.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 09, 2018, 08:29:03 AM
Itís a good rule of thumb.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: oldkid on August 09, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
I don't believe anyone loves me unless they're actively trying to kill me.

At least you know they understand you.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Will on August 20, 2018, 12:04:27 AM
Itís not my thing but who am I to judge?

Don't feel like the power dynamics that occur in relationships should be protected from scrutiny. The "if it's not broke, don't fix it" mentality is precisely the mentality that keeps people in abusive relationships and those relationships do tend to prove corrosive to other people's lives outside the relationship as well. This film never suggests for a second that anyone else could be possibly affected because of the immense privilege these two characters have (which is never addressed) that allows them to live in such a private state, but it's nevertheless a bad mentality to gain from a film - "well as long as the abuse is consented to, who cares, right?" But again, the lack of psychology to Alma's character fails to give us a contextual reason as to why she is like this way. She just is in love with Woodcock and will do anything for him. That just makes the film ever so shallow and ultimately forgettable - in my opinion. It doesn't give me anything to truly ever learn about Alma which renders her without an arc or a personality. Good thing Vicky Krieps is a good actress for such a thankless role.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Will on August 20, 2018, 12:07:05 AM
It wasn't a complete slog but I must say I wasn't thrilled that these were the characters I was going to be stuck with for the duration. An unpleasant genius and the woman who inexplicably can't seem to live without him. One is as frustrating as the other. Their existence and the film's decision to focus on them gives rise to two questions: Why is he unpleasant, and why does she love him. Two questions which may share one answer.

Anyways, you do what you can over the course of a couple of hours. You study the characters, watch their reactions... it's all very interesting, I'm sure.

Behold! Two passive aggressive people try to have an argument!
"I purposesly gave you butter!"
"I purposely ignored your giving me butter!"

It truth these were the highlights of the film for me. Noisy tea pouring, noisy bread buttering, getting lectured about backgammon... these two deserve each other. Those parts made me laugh.

There are moments when I almost came around to the point of rooting for the characters. I thought, if they could just have a breakthrough of some sort they might be less unhappy. But that went away when I realized they weren't unhappy. This is actually just them. They don't change, they just come to an understanding. Good for them. Happy ending.

5/10

This is a pretty great review.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: smirnoff on August 21, 2018, 07:34:01 PM
This is a pretty great review.

(https://i.imgur.com/GFvmMx5.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/BsXfTMW.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/OfRkbew.gif)
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: DarkeningHumour on August 22, 2018, 08:32:33 AM
Woodcock is sympathetic. Ava is infuriating.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: oldkid on August 22, 2018, 11:17:00 AM
Woodcock is sympathetic. Ava is infuriating.

Almost perfect.  Just reverse it.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Teproc on August 22, 2018, 11:41:04 AM
They're both infurating to a degree, but certainly Ava is more sympathetic.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: DarkeningHumour on August 22, 2018, 11:46:05 AM
Woodcock is an asshole, but he's an asshole in his own home, and he's mostly pleasant as long as you follow his rules. Ava is a passive aggressive guest with bad manners.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 22, 2018, 12:00:13 PM
Everybody is an asshole if you look deep enough.
Iím always grateful when they wear it on the outside - easier to spot and deal with.

I would say that itís become Ava's home too.
I donít think I would call her a guest.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: DarkeningHumour on August 22, 2018, 12:10:36 PM
If you own a home and get a flatmate for whatever reason, it's still your place, and your rules should prevail.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: oldkid on August 22, 2018, 12:32:30 PM
If you own a home and get a flatmate for whatever reason, it's still your place, and your rules should prevail.

So I own my home and my wife doesn't (yet), so I should get to tell her what to do?  If I don't like a habit of hers, I just tell her to leave?  And I should do that with any guest that I invite into my home to live long term?  Sorry, but that's ridiculous.  Life doesn't work that way.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 22, 2018, 01:09:33 PM
If Woodcock regards her as just a flat mate even though they are in an obvious relationship then, for me at least, he is the more distasteful person.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: DarkeningHumour on August 23, 2018, 03:31:10 AM
They don't start off by being in a romantic relationship (quite). And there are several degrees of separation between serious relationships and ownership sharing arrangements like marriage and the latest in a series of flings.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: jdc on August 23, 2018, 05:23:58 AM
If you own a home and get a flatmate for whatever reason, it's still your place, and your rules should prevail.

I use to think like this, now it only seems to work that way at my wife's house.

Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: Will on August 28, 2018, 12:49:22 PM
They don't start off by being in a romantic relationship (quite). And there are several degrees of separation between serious relationships and ownership sharing arrangements like marriage and the latest in a series of flings.

He asks her out for dinner then takes her back to his place. It's clear, by social standards, that this is a date. This isn't modern day texting "wanna hang out?", this is 1950s London.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: DarkeningHumour on August 29, 2018, 03:32:34 AM
I think he was, at first, purely interested in her for her muse potential, but acted out on it in a way that would make anyone confuse it for romantic interest. Certainly he has a single minded focus on his work, and demonstrates throughout the movie that that is pretty much the only thing he cares about. The romance comes later, almost as an afterthought. It seems to me that the whole sleeping with her business was entirely optional, and contingent on some revealed quality of hers (I don't remember what precipitates the event).
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: oldkid on August 29, 2018, 06:35:33 PM
It seems to me that he was interested in her more than just "muse potential."  I suppose that's possible, given his odd, self-absorbed nature, but he was giving serious overtones of romantic interest.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: DarkeningHumour on August 30, 2018, 05:32:23 AM
I don't know, the guy is extremely disagreeable and borderline antisocial. I doubt, before the very end of the movie, he ever harboured more than some lust, and perhaps mild tenderness, towards Ava.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: oldkid on August 30, 2018, 11:24:53 AM
I don't know, the guy is extremely disagreeable and borderline antisocial. I doubt, before the very end of the movie, he ever harboured more than some lust, and perhaps mild tenderness, towards Ava.

I'd have to watch it a couple more times before I could draw any conclusions to that.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: jdc on August 31, 2018, 11:04:03 AM
I don't know, the guy is extremely disagreeable and borderline antisocial. I doubt, before the very end of the movie, he ever harboured more than some lust, and perhaps mild tenderness, towards Ava.

I'd have to watch it a couple more times before I could draw any conclusions to that.

Just eat some mushrooms you masochist
Title: Re: Phantom Thread
Post by: don s. on October 04, 2018, 03:28:57 PM
My long-awaited rewatch comes courtesy of HBO. I've been eager to see it again mainly to focus on how Greenwood's beautiful score was used (I've listened to it in isolation many times since my first viewing), but I'm finding myself really enjoying the heck out of everything. In some ways its greatest asset is in casting: the leads, the parade of clients, the old ladies in the workroom. I think I could watch the brilliant Lesley Manville's dour death stare forever.

I can't explain or defend the ending ó I'm not very bright that way ó but I love the journey.