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Filmspotting Message Boards => Movie Talk (Spoiler Edition) => Topic started by: 1SO on April 27, 2018, 03:19:06 PM

Title: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: 1SO on April 27, 2018, 03:19:06 PM
I didn't know how much I wanted to see Black Widow and Okoye team up in a fight until it was about to happen. I wish they worked off he other, more like how Strange helped Spider-Man, Star Lord and Iron Man fight Thanos, but it was great to anticipate these two warrior women.

I guess the big question is who is really dead and how is Captain Marvel going to save us all? I don't know enough about the character, but I'm sure once her movie comes out it will become clear how time will be reversed. This brings up the really big question I'm burying deep inside this paragraph. It's safe to assume anyone turned to ash will return, but what about Gamora? Can she return? If not can they make a Guardians movie without her or with Nebula filling her role? Seems unlikely and right now I'm thinking that Thanos' soul can be exchanged for Gamora. Loki however is probably dead, and I'm fine with that. His story seems complete.

I loved the introduction of Captain America. Very fitting, and I'm glad they didn't wait until Wakanda.

No, seriously, where the hell was Hawkeye?
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Dave the Necrobumper on April 27, 2018, 04:42:41 PM
Finishing off with all but one of the Guardians of the Galaxy dead, Spiderman, Black Panther and several other major players dead was great. However they are going to reverse the deaths, most likely, which will completely remove any stakes for the major players in future films. They are main players so the stakes are ridiculously low anyway, but to bring them back (or even some of them) will completely wipe out those low stakes. As much as I would like to see many of these characters again, I would rather this film was the end of them.

In terms of villains they have learnt from Spiderman: Homecoming and given the villain proper depth and reasoning. You can see what his logic wanted and why.

The lack of time between characters being in vastly separated places was my biggest problem with the movie. This reduced the grand scale of the events taking place.

Yes the Black Widow and Okoye team up was excellent.

I must admit I did not recognise Captain America until his name was spoken.

Where was Hawkeye? I think he was playing Tag.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: FLYmeatwad on April 27, 2018, 08:25:21 PM
Don't care much about Hawkeye, but where was Ant-Man? Hawkeye was away with his wife or something they said, right?

Anyway, yeah, not a huge fan of the conclusion, like I wrote on Letterboxd last night it felt really disingenuous to stop calling this "Infinity War Part 1" at some point (didn't realize this was happening until the title card had it absent), especially with who they decided to chop. Like, okay, Loki you can get rid of, I'd buy that. Scarlet Witch, also expendable, but you expect me to feel something that Spiderman and Black Panther are gone when they've got films slated to drop well beyond Part 2? You know the reset button is going to be hit, which made that whole conclusion ring hollow.

Coolest part was waiting for the post credits thing, which they really make you wait for this time in a move I can support, and restrain themselves to just one, and seeing special thanks to FOX for use of Arrested Development. Figured it was just playing on a TV in the background somewhere, but saw today that there was just a Tobias sighting/lookalike, which is likely the best crossover to come from the MCU.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: The Deer Hunter on April 27, 2018, 08:34:18 PM
I enjoyed the ending. I thought it was a bold way to end an Avengers movie. But I'm also assuming the characters that disappeared aren't dead and will return. Which i don't necessarily mind.

I'm not sure what that means for the future of the series if they can just go back and time and do things differently. Maybe the stones will be destroyed as a way out?

There wasn't nearly as much Captain America as i was hoping for but i guess he'll be all over the next movie.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: 1SO on April 27, 2018, 10:40:23 PM
Unless I'm remembering it wrong, at the end we are down to our Avengers from the first film, minus Nick Fury and plus a couple of others. So that means Tony, Cap, Thor, Hulk, Black Widow and I assume Hawkeye, Captain Marvel and Ant-Man will have to figure out a solution.

It's been interesting reading reactions to ending. For those that know nothing about contracts, sequels and studio deals there's true shock over who is dead. For many, they were believing the mass murder up until Black Panther and Spider-Man who common sense would tell you are going to be in future films. Of course, many know that all the dust people are not really dead, but it's an interesting note to pause on for a year+. Normally, this is a moment we might sit in for 3-5 minutes and then Earth's Mightiest Heroes would put a plan in motion to undo Thanos' work. Instead we end with Thanos victorious. Some claim there's no ending to the film and I might agree if not for the scenes of the survivors wondering where to go from here and Thanos watching the sunset with satisfaction, which I think gives this adventure a nice coda. It's much like the scene after Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince when Harry announces he won't be returning to Hogwarts because he has a much bigger mission to complete. You know the story isn't finished, but this part of it is very much complete, with the right amount of unanswered questions hanging in the air. I think the film is closer to that than Deathly Hallows Part 1.

I'm also more certain now that the Soul Stone will be used to bring Gamora back to life.

And the ending doesn't ring hollow for me because it's not about the Avengers being massacred, it's simply about them losing. All of this power, some of them seemingly immortal and they still failed to save the planet. I don't need or want them dead. I just need them beaten.

I'm assuming Valkyrie is dead and I'm kind of bummed about that. It's like the start of Alien 3 where you learn all that effort from Aliens was for nothing. Thanos wipes out half of civilization, but it seems he's destroyed all but one Asgardian. I wonder if there was a deleted scene where Thanos let Valkyrie escape with half of the people. Maybe when they filmed this they weren't sure how popular the new characters from Ragnarok would be, but they seemed very confident about the Black Panther cast.

I was happy for the little Captain America I got considering everything was pointing towards his death.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: FLYmeatwad on April 27, 2018, 11:33:05 PM
I feel like the focus on BP characters would have happened regardless of confidence since he's pretty much their post-current Avengers launching point, while Ragnarok was a bridge film for the larger story (for the record T:R is my favorite MCU film and BP is on the low end).
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: StudentOFilm on April 28, 2018, 12:35:03 AM
My prediction is that Strange did something to one of the stones... and if not, considering Thanos' gauntlet and this storyline, in general, revolves around warping space, time, and reality- I have to imagine that will play into how just about every single character (whether they turned to ash or died beforehand) can come back and maybe even the universe will be altered a bit to explain why some of the older characters aren't around come future films. Probably in a Hickman's Secret Wars/House of M (minus the X-Men) kind of way since so many comics from the 2000s/2010s have inspired the MCU.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on April 28, 2018, 10:31:19 AM
A few things:

- I was impressed with how many characters were given their moment. This is a huge cast and I felt nobody was left out.

- I thought Hawkeye and Ant-Manís non-inclusion made sense. They are both devoted to their families and, probably, that same devotion will be used as motivation (and vengeance) if their families were part of Thanosí extermination.

- the Hulkís invincibility is not a given anymore making him a far more interesting character because even he knew it and was scared to get back in the fight after his major ass whooping in the first act.

- Rocket eyeing Buckyís new arm was one of my favorite comedic moments in the film out of many.

- Rocket actually grew as a character. I really enjoyed his role.

- Thanos is the best written villain yet to show up in the MCU.

- I am not at bothered by the possible/inevitable resurrection of so many characters because thatís just how comics roll. Death, resurrection, retconning is part of the game here.

All in all, a solid outing by Marvel/Disney and lots of fun.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: 1SO on April 28, 2018, 06:16:40 PM
- Rocket eyeing Buckyís new arm was one of my favorite comedic moments in the film out of many.
One of my favorites, but I probably laughed harder when he handed Thor the spare eye, says he would've washed it first and then started to explain why.


- I am not at bothered by the possible/inevitable resurrection of so many characters because thatís just how comics roll. Death, resurrection, retconning is part of the game here.
Yes. I think some people are making too big a deal about the obvious lack of final death in the ending when they should be focusing on Thanos achieving his goal and getting to enjoy the completion of his work. This is a direct reply to everyone who has been complaining that there are no stakes because the Avengers never seem defeatable. This has ALL of them working together and everybody fails. Sure, they'll win the war, but not until next year.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Dave the Necrobumper on April 28, 2018, 06:25:34 PM
Yet if (when) they defeat Thanos next year that just follows on with them being undefeatable. The movies have usually losing a battle or two during the movie only to overcome in the end. As next years film is basically part 2 of this years film, when they defeat Thanos that continues the same issue. It was a great ending for this year's film.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: 1SO on April 28, 2018, 11:23:46 PM
So you prefer a superhero movie where the heroes die? With commercial movies, I like my leads to be vulnerable, to grow and change, to be permanently affected by their journey, maybe even scarred, but I don't think I'd be too happy to see evil ultimately triumph over good.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on April 28, 2018, 11:54:00 PM
I think weíre being set up for at least one hard hitting death in the next film.
We know Spider-Man and Black Panther are both coming back - thereís even one more guardians film in the pipe, but Cap has been replaced in the comics by both Falcon and Bucky. Chris Evanís contract is up after the next Avengers film so maybe this is a cinematic head fake to hit us with a harder loss. Kinda like losing Hugh Jackmanís Wolverine in Logan.
I think the stakes are in losing a familiar face and not the character being played. Theyíll retcon Wolverine but itíll never be HJ just like Captain America will always be CE for many of us.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Dave the Necrobumper on April 29, 2018, 05:42:22 AM
So you prefer a superhero movie where the heroes die? With commercial movies, I like my leads to be vulnerable, to grow and change, to be permanently affected by their journey, maybe even scarred, but I don't think I'd be too happy to see evil ultimately triumph over good.

Not all of them, but with so many super heroes, I want to have a bit more edge, which means at least one or two of them dying. There is a fantasy writer called David Gemmell, who's book are great in part because the hero survival rate is low. They go into battle and they do not always come out. It gives more to the reading not knowing who is going to live and who is going to die. I agree with growing and changing leads being good.

Is Thanos evil? He believes the universe is over-populated and a thinning of the crowd is required for all to survive. Something he tried to do on his home planet, it was rejected and the whole planet died as a result. Is it evil to thin the crowd so some survive, rather than not thin the crowd and all die? Now his torturing of Nebula is evil, so he definitely has evil in him. Do all our heroes come out clean when it comes to torturing people (for example threatening to beat them when they are already beaten) for information?
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on April 29, 2018, 06:26:23 PM
Yes Thanos is evil.
Having backstory and moments of humanity donít exempt you from that. Iím sure even Hitler loved someone Truly, madly, deeply...
Doesnít make him any less evil.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Dave the Necrobumper on April 30, 2018, 04:36:38 AM
Are you saying that Thanos's plan is evil or something else? Regarding his plan of killing half of all species, to save all species, is evil; and doing nothing and having whole species die is not evil? Going to that old philosophy thought experiment of the Trolley problem. There is a variant where to save 5 people from dying you have to push 1 other person in front of the trolley (killing that person). That would be evil?

Further if Thanos is evil, when he gets the ultimate power of life and death would he not make the dying as horrible as possible, rather than quick and clean?
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on April 30, 2018, 11:35:12 AM
Are you saying that Thanos's plan is evil or something else?

Evil. Misguided evil but evil nonetheless.
A touch of pathos doesnít absolve him of his actions.
I try to avoid universal statements but all genocidists are evil. I feel pretty comfortable with that statement.


Quote
Regarding his plan of killing half of all species, to save all species, is evil; and doing nothing and having whole species die is not evil?

Leaves quite a lot of room for middle ground, if eliminating all living beingís accountability for their choices is your thing.
It seems to me that there would be a less violent way when you have complete power of destruction, creation, life, death, time, knowledge and reality at your disposal.



 
Quote
Going to that old philosophy thought experiment of the Trolley problem. There is a variant where to save 5 people from dying you have to push 1 other person in front of the trolley (killing that person). That would be evil?


The filmís morality code seemed very obvious to me: we donít trade a life for a life.
Outside of that, this isnít a situation that Thanos suddenly found himself thrust into and had to make on the fly. This is a philosophy that he developed, he spent a lifetime pursuing.
Consciously, willfully participating in genocide from planet to planet.
I donít find the comparison very strong.

Quote
Further if Thanos is evil, when he gets the ultimate power of life and death would he not make the dying as horrible as possible, rather than quick and clean?

Gassing people seemed quick, humane and expedient.
A quick bullet to the head likewise.
Killing people in a neat and tidy and non horrifying manner doesnít make it any less evil.
Just quieter.
And letís not forget he spent years going around the universe doing it the violent, bloody old fashioned way.
My vote goes with evil.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Teproc on April 30, 2018, 12:45:54 PM
How is this even a conversation ?  :o

Side note: When Doctor Strange came into the film, I felt somehow familiar with him (moreso than other characters I mean), and it took me a few scenes to realize that I was simply equating him with Darkening Humour.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Corndog on May 01, 2018, 08:24:51 AM
Side note: When Doctor Strange came into the film, I felt somehow familiar with him (moreso than other characters I mean), and it took me a few scenes to realize that I was simply equating him with Darkening Humour.

Hahahahaha
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 02, 2018, 05:08:24 AM
Well, that got dark. Like, real dark.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 02, 2018, 05:28:50 AM
Side note: When Doctor Strange came into the film, I felt somehow familiar with him (moreso than other characters I mean), and it took me a few scenes to realize that I was simply equating him with Darkening Humour.

Back in January when I disappeared I was actually taking a break to save the world. Nice company, terrible weather.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 02, 2018, 05:49:27 AM
I guess the big question is who is really dead and how is Captain Marvel going to save us all? I don't know enough about the character, but I'm sure once her movie comes out it will become clear how time will be reversed. This brings up the really big question I'm burying deep inside this paragraph. It's safe to assume anyone turned to ash will return, but what about Gamora? Can she return? If not can they make a Guardians movie without her or with Nebula filling her role? Seems unlikely and right now I'm thinking that Thanos' soul can be exchanged for Gamora. Loki however is probably dead, and I'm fine with that. His story seems complete.

I'm not okay with it. I was looking forward to seeing him team up with the Avengers and how it would play out. I am not thrilled at seeing one of my three favourite characters be killed of in the first scenes of the movie. I hope he'll be back, if only because I would also like to see the rest of the Asgardians get resurrected. If they undo Thanos' bigger genocide at the end but his genocide of the Asgardians remain it will leave an ashen taste in my mouth. Pun intended.

I don't give a rabbit's ass about Gamora. I am more interested in seeing whether they'll bring Vision back. I agree all the people who turned to ash will come back but I hope they'll keep the stakes high by killing someone off in the second movie, just not Iron Man. Someone mentioned Cap and I'd be okay with him getting permanently unalived.

My prediction is that Strange did something to one of the stones...

Strange's final line indicated to me that when he saw into the futures he realised the only way to beat Thanos would be to let him win at first, for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 02, 2018, 05:54:16 AM
I want to talk about the tone of the movie. The first half of it is the usual Avengers jokey formula, albeit slightly more serious, but all humour disappears around halfway through and things get very dark indeed. Gamora dies, like, for realsies, and Tony nearly gets killed. This is after the movie having opened with the wholesale slaughter of a whole people. This is not your average Marvel movie, this is a brand new gambit and Marvel is taking chances. I like it, even if the humour is why I like the other movies so much.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: The Deer Hunter on May 02, 2018, 06:39:53 AM
I'm assuming Valkyrie is dead and I'm kind of bummed about that. It's like the start of Alien 3 where you learn all that effort from Aliens was for nothing. Thanos wipes out half of civilization, but it seems he's destroyed all but one Asgardian. I wonder if there was a deleted scene where Thanos let Valkyrie escape with half of the people. Maybe when they filmed this they weren't sure how popular the new characters from Ragnarok would be, but they seemed very confident about the Black Panther cast.

Thor mentions that half of the Asgardian's escaped so she's presumably with them. Along with Korg. I wonder if we'll even get another chance to see them again though. Is there a Thor 4?

The biggest laugh in my audience came from the Squidward line and i think what i ended up laughing at the most was the Captain America copying Thor's beard line.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: 1SO on May 02, 2018, 08:54:21 AM
I want to talk about the tone of the movie. The first half of it is the usual Avengers jokey formula, albeit slightly more serious, but all humour disappears around halfway through and things get very dark indeed. Gamora dies, like, for realsies, and Tony nearly gets killed. This is after the movie having opened with the wholesale slaughter of a whole people. This is not your average Marvel movie, this is a brand new gambit and Marvel is taking chances. I like it, even if the humour is why I like the other movies so much.
I didn't notice that. Spidy, Stark and StarLord remain quippy in their battle with Thanos. Bruce v. Hulk has some laughs. Shuri, that exchange between Cap and Thor followed by Cap and Groot. ("This is my friend, Tree.") I would say Black Panther has a less humorous back half than Avengers 4. Heck, even at the post-credits, Sam Jackson being cut off mid-swear was funny.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 02, 2018, 10:26:10 AM
I want to talk about the tone of the movie. The first half of it is the usual Avengers jokey formula, albeit slightly more serious, but all humour disappears around halfway through and things get very dark indeed. Gamora dies, like, for realsies, and Tony nearly gets killed. This is after the movie having opened with the wholesale slaughter of a whole people. This is not your average Marvel movie, this is a brand new gambit and Marvel is taking chances. I like it, even if the humour is why I like the other movies so much.

I didn't notice that. Spidy, Stark and StarLord remain quippy in their battle with Thanos. Bruce v. Hulk has some laughs. Shuri, that exchange between Cap and Thor followed by Cap and Groot. ("This is my friend, Tree.") I would say Black Panther has a less humorous back half than Avengers 4. Heck, even at the post-credits, Sam Jackson being cut off mid-swear was funny.

Maybe there isn't a complete lack of jokes in the second half/last third but I definitely sensed a diminution compared to the beginning, which had some solid scenes of banter.

On that topic, the movie, as a whole, has a lot let scenes of character interaction and just hanging out, which makes sense considering how action packed it needs to be, but those scenes were what made the other Avengers movies so special, among other things, and I really missed that. It's one of the reasons I struggle with this movie a bit.

I'm assuming Valkyrie is dead and I'm kind of bummed about that. It's like the start of Alien 3 where you learn all that effort from Aliens was for nothing. Thanos wipes out half of civilization, but it seems he's destroyed all but one Asgardian. I wonder if there was a deleted scene where Thanos let Valkyrie escape with half of the people. Maybe when they filmed this they weren't sure how popular the new characters from Ragnarok would be, but they seemed very confident about the Black Panther cast.

Thor mentions that half of the Asgardian's escaped so she's presumably with them.

When does he say this? If they're alive, couldn't they have helped him while he was floating in space?
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: The Deer Hunter on May 02, 2018, 03:50:04 PM
I'm assuming Valkyrie is dead and I'm kind of bummed about that. It's like the start of Alien 3 where you learn all that effort from Aliens was for nothing. Thanos wipes out half of civilization, but it seems he's destroyed all but one Asgardian. I wonder if there was a deleted scene where Thanos let Valkyrie escape with half of the people. Maybe when they filmed this they weren't sure how popular the new characters from Ragnarok would be, but they seemed very confident about the Black Panther cast.

Thor mentions that half of the Asgardian's escaped so she's presumably with them.

When does he say this? If they're alive, couldn't they have helped him while he was floating in space?

I forget exactly. He says it to either Groot during their alone time or before the other Guardians leave. My guess is they evacuated to safety beforehand and didn't know what the aftermath was.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Dave the Necrobumper on May 04, 2018, 07:44:05 AM
Are you saying that Thanos's plan is evil or something else?

Evil. Misguided evil but evil nonetheless.
A touch of pathos doesnít absolve him of his actions.
I try to avoid universal statements but all genocidists are evil. I feel pretty comfortable with that statement.


Thanos is a being with the powers of a God. You are comfortable with the statement that all genocidists are evil, so those who follow the Judaeo-Christian God are followers of an Evil God (I put the Flood as one example of genocide)? Universal statements are troublesome, but so is accepting genocide as not an evil act, always.

Quote
Quote
Regarding his plan of killing half of all species, to save all species, is evil; and doing nothing and having whole species die is not evil?

Leaves quite a lot of room for middle ground, if eliminating all living beingís accountability for their choices is your thing.
It seems to me that there would be a less violent way when you have complete power of destruction, creation, life, death, time, knowledge and reality at your disposal.


I agree there is a lot (!!!!) of middle ground and Thanos has set himself on a path and clearly sees deviating from that path as unacceptable. I wonder if at some point in the past, to ensure that he would not 'weaken' his resolve and not complete his 'goal' of 'saving' the universe, he has forced himself not to be moved from the path to not allow arguments to sway him. This blinkered approach did not allow him to use the power he gained to understand there may be a better way. Of course it could be that he saw all the possible paths and genocide was the best path, I do not have the capacity to even scope the size of the research required to determine the best path.

Quote

 
Quote
Going to that old philosophy thought experiment of the Trolley problem. There is a variant where to save 5 people from dying you have to push 1 other person in front of the trolley (killing that person). That would be evil?

The filmís morality code seemed very obvious to me: we donít trade a life for a life.

Yes they do claim that, yet they could have ended the life of a robot hybrid and saved everyone of the lives Thanos ends up taking. They had an immensely powerful being out to get the stone in Vision's head, a being they should have a very strong idea they would not be able to stop. So are they complicit in what happens? Also their moral code does not go very far, given they kill huge numbers of sentient beings during this film and the previous films. Slaughter on a mass scale is acceptable if it is 'them' not 'us', based on their actions.

Quote
Outside of that, this isnít a situation that Thanos suddenly found himself thrust into and had to make on the fly. This is a philosophy that he developed, he spent a lifetime pursuing.
Consciously, willfully participating in genocide from planet to planet.
I donít find the comparison very strong.


Quote
Further if Thanos is evil, when he gets the ultimate power of life and death would he not make the dying as horrible as possible, rather than quick and clean?

Gassing people seemed quick, humane and expedient.
A quick bullet to the head likewise.
Killing people in a neat and tidy and non horrifying manner doesnít make it any less evil.

I would change that to "Killing people in a neat and tidy and non horrifying manner doesn't stop it from being evil". The reason is that society general grades evil, so 'less evil' is not accurate, because if Thanos killed them after inflicting great pain that would be more evil.

Quote
Just quieter.
And letís not forget he spent years going around the universe doing it the violent, bloody old fashioned way.
My vote goes with evil.


How is this even a conversation ?  :o

Because it is interesting :)

And because I cannot help myself I ask anyone the following question:

You have the ability to wipe out 50% of Earth's human population it is the only use of this power that is possible, you cannot direct it to kill particular people, you can not pass the power to another person, nor have it taken from you. You can destroy your ability to have the power (and not die yourself). This use is likely to save many species from extinction, of course it may only save one or two species from extinction. Which do you choose?:
A. Destroy the power immediately
B. Deliberate on what you will do
C. Use it immediately

It is a horrible choice as either you kill 3.65Billion people, or by not doing it you are directly responsible for not saving many species from extinction.

My answer/choice is B
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 04, 2018, 07:49:47 AM
Really? You think saving the dodos is worth wiping out the equivalent of Asia?
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Dave the Necrobumper on May 04, 2018, 07:56:30 AM
I just answered that I would think about it. That said I am sure the dodos would have thought that.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 04, 2018, 07:59:38 AM
Just what species is so important that you'd stop to think about it? The dolphins?
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Corndog on May 04, 2018, 08:14:04 AM
Bees
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Dave the Necrobumper on May 04, 2018, 08:14:53 AM
All of them. Humanity is just one of many species. Do you think 1 human is worth more than 1 dolphin?
There is also the issue of climate change, will a mass reduction in human population stop growth in global temperatures? The rise of global temperatures could kill many (billions??), if it causes large crop failures or make large areas of arable land non-productive. Disputes over dwindling resources is seeing conflict around the world. The population change would affect many things.

Note: The world had a population of 3.7Billion in 1970, not that long ago.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 04, 2018, 08:57:30 AM
One human is worth more than all the dolphins. And even if we need them for some ecological reason, one human is still worth infinitely more than a mammal with fins.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Dave the Necrobumper on May 04, 2018, 06:27:54 PM
I do not agree, but thatís ok
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Will on May 05, 2018, 03:25:48 AM
This is honestly the worst Marvel Cinematic Universe movie of them all. I'm astonished anyone can take any of this seriously. It's in TRANSFORMERS territory of derivative. Only thing it has going for it are the actors. And half of them seem bored out of their minds.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Teproc on May 05, 2018, 08:00:52 AM
I'm with DH on this. Humanism all the way, not because we're the best, but because we're us. This could change if we met a comparably intelligent species, possibly.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 05, 2018, 08:58:46 AM
Dave, see what you've done? Now you've got people calling me a humanist.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: FLYmeatwad on May 05, 2018, 10:16:11 AM
Feel like the first half of Transform3rs is better than more than 75% of MCU films, and Trans4mers is definitely as good as the top half.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Junior on May 05, 2018, 02:53:34 PM
I can't distinguish one Transformers from another. I can for the MCU.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: 1SO on May 05, 2018, 08:41:09 PM
This is honestly the worst Marvel Cinematic Universe movie of them all. I'm astonished anyone can take any of this seriously. It's in TRANSFORMERS territory of derivative.

1. Are you referring to a specific Transformers or the entire series? Which Transformers films have you seen?

2. Is your problem with...
a) The story points
b) the action
c) the humor

I understand there can be more than one answer, but I would disagree with you most about the humor. This is oddly one of the funniest Marvel movies, and not just because of the Guardians.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: 1SO on May 05, 2018, 09:35:18 PM
I'm assuming Valkyrie is dead and I'm kind of bummed about that. It's like the start of Alien 3 where you learn all that effort from Aliens was for nothing. Thanos wipes out half of civilization, but it seems he's destroyed all but one Asgardian. I wonder if there was a deleted scene where Thanos let Valkyrie escape with half of the people. Maybe when they filmed this they weren't sure how popular the new characters from Ragnarok would be, but they seemed very confident about the Black Panther cast.

Thor mentions that half of the Asgardian's escaped so she's presumably with them.

When does he say this? If they're alive, couldn't they have helped him while he was floating in space?

I forget exactly. He says it to either Groot during their alone time or before the other Guardians leave. My guess is they evacuated to safety beforehand and didn't know what the aftermath was.
He does say something but I think it's more along the lines of "Thanos slaughtered half my people," so there's a strong possibility Valkyrie is alive, but I would love to see how she ended up on an escape ship and not fighting Thanos or his minions.


Another thought I had watching the film again today...

When Bucky dies, his arm turns to dust too. Wouldn't it fall to the ground separated from the body that turns to ash? Of course then I'm questioning all the clothes and capes and suits that also dust, but it would've been interesting for Bucky's arm to remain because Rocket lives and he said he was going to get the arm. This would give it to him but in an unfunny way.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: philip918 on May 06, 2018, 12:35:11 PM
One human is worth more than all the dolphins. And even if we need them for some ecological reason, one human is still worth infinitely more than a mammal with fins.

All the humans for one dolphin.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Will on May 06, 2018, 02:12:38 PM
I can't distinguish one Transformers from another. I can for the MCU.

We're about to have one more of these. Give it some time.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Teproc on May 06, 2018, 03:40:36 PM
One human is worth more than all the dolphins. And even if we need them for some ecological reason, one human is still worth infinitely more than a mammal with fins.

All the humans for one dolphin.

So long, and thanks for all the fish.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: 1SO on May 06, 2018, 10:03:11 PM
I keep reflecting on the approach taken with the structure of Infinity War. While Thanos is the villain and there are a few dozen heroes, the structure is that of a classic Heroes Quest with Thanos as the main character, collecting the necessary stones at great personal cost while these pesky Avengers try to stop him from achieving his goal. The way to make a film with a dozen leads is to make the bad guy the lead and make everyone else the obstacles in his way. That's what makes this film a complete story and not just the first half of a two-parter.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Teproc on May 07, 2018, 03:51:55 AM
I keep reflecting on the approach taken with the structure of Infinity War. While Thanos is the villain and there are a few dozen heroes, the structure is that of a classic Heroes Quest with Thanos as the main character, collecting the necessary stones at great personal cost while these pesky Avengers try to stop him from achieving his goal. The way to make a film with a dozen leads is to make the bad guy the lead and make everyone else the obstacles in his way. That's what makes this film a complete story and not just the first half of a two-parter.

More or less. They don't commit to Thanos as a main character enough for it to really land for me, in the sense that we don't see his character evolve at all throughout the film, we only learn who he already is. I think it's a valliant effort, but the Gamora thing doesn't have the weight it's clearly supposed to have for me.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 07, 2018, 05:50:14 AM
Here's the problem with Thanos as a character for me. The movie's emotional climax hinges on us empathising with Thanos and believing in his relationship with Gamora. Since Thanos was never introduced prior to the movie though, it has to do all the legwork of building the backstory and selling the relationship. It's not enough because there are too many other things it has to do. I am going to repeat my criticism of the Guardians movies: they should have introduced Thanos and built him up as a character. One of the reasons Loki worked was because we had a movie's worth of character build in Thor and Avengers could immediately cut to him doing Loki stuff. If Guardians 1 had established why Gamora hated Thanos so much and what the deal with Nebula was this would have been far more satisfying. That's not to mention the Gamora-Quill romance. I believe Thanos loved his daughter because the movie says he did but it never showed it to me.

Also, if the whole journey of the movie is going to be about fatherhood, it is very confusing to call the minions the Children of Thanos. It took me a while to realise I should not understand that in a literal sense.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Junior on May 07, 2018, 11:21:25 AM
I wrote a thing about some of the problems I had with the conversation surrounding Infinity War: Peaceful Thinking: Avengers: Infinity War (https://benefitsofaclassicaleducation.wordpress.com/2018/05/07/peaceful-thinking-avengers-infinity-war/)


I think the movie is really impressive for how well it works with such a difficult set of parameters. Thanos is actually interesting, which is the first time there has been two good Marvel villains in a row. Thor is the best, I didn't love Doctor Strange, and everybody else was cool.

However, I do have a major problem. They (first Peter Parker, then others) attribute the "blow the bad guy out the airlock" thing to Aliens when that's really just a reference to Alien! I guess maybe I get the young kid making that mistake, but somebody like Iron Man should correct him. Alien is the superior film and the originator of that little trick (there's a chance it's in Dark Star too, I guess).
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Sandy on May 07, 2018, 11:53:13 AM
However, I do have a major problem. They (first Peter Parker, then others) attribute the "blow the bad guy out the airlock" thing to Aliens when that's really just a reference to Alien! I guess maybe I get the young kid making that mistake, but somebody like Iron Man should correct him. Alien is the superior film and the originator of that little trick (there's a chance it's in Dark Star too, I guess).

Aw, Junior, you're a true film nerd and I say that with the highest respect. :)
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Junior on May 07, 2018, 12:30:45 PM
Thanks, I try.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: 1SO on May 07, 2018, 11:17:56 PM
Thor is the best,
I love the humor Hemsworth brings, but the weapon forging plot has probably been my least favorite on subsequent viewings because it's so detached from the Thanos story.


However, I do have a major problem. They (first Peter Parker, then others) attribute the "blow the bad guy out the airlock" thing to Aliens when that's really just a reference to Alien! I guess maybe I get the young kid making that mistake, but somebody like Iron Man should correct him. Alien is the superior film and the originator of that little trick (there's a chance it's in Dark Star too, I guess).
I took it as Peter knowing Aliens but not Alien. Tony Stark has always been tricky because Downey likes to use pop culture jokes - Squidward - but Stark is supposed to be too busy in his lab to make time for watching movies and TV.


Quote
Some writers seem upset that they had less of an understanding of whatís going on than they normally do, as characters are barely introduced nor are their powers or importance explained. Others argue that itís barely a movie, more like a series of setpieces with hardly any character development taking place within or between the explosions and fights. Still others claim that there are no stakes to the film thanks to its very comic book nature and the things that we know comic books do (namely: have something happen, then reverse or retcon that happening issues later).
Interesting that there wasn't so much about this with Deathly Hallows Part 2 even though it's the same situation. That one was clearly looked at as the last half of the final film while this doesn't get any of the same courtesy. So as much as I've read this, I've also read the criticism there's too much exposition, which I assume is the 90 seconds spent explaining the infinity stones to Tony Stark.

Quote
I think the criticism that says itís impossible to understand whatís going on here without having seen all other 18 movies in the franchise is misguided at best and insulting at worst.
I see no reason to even include Ant-Man as a film that must be seen since he's not in this film and what little you need to know you get from Civil War.
I also wonder just how much was known going into production about Ragnarok and Black Panther. Characters from both films you would expect to see here are just gone without explanation, and with Ragnarok it completely negates the hopeful ending of that film, much like Alien 3 does to Aliens.


Quote
Critics need to catch up to what itís doing, what Marvelís place is in the culture at large, and what it means going forward.
I like this. I do think much of the criticism is based on old models regarding tentpoles, franchises and sequels. Marvel is doing something different and critics should adjust their thinking accordingly.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: 1SO on May 07, 2018, 11:28:14 PM
From David Ehrlich:
Quote
and in the end it turns out the Marvel Cinematic Universe was just the story of Tony Stark trying to figure out faster and faster ways of getting dressed. a noble goal, to be fair, but still.

150 minutes of dank colors in deep space. precious few sparks of life. as much as i admired the film's penchant for sadism, the Russo bros continue to be the absolute worst.

Speaking of critics, this post on Letterboxd, with over 1100 likes, is the worst piece of criticism I've found since listening to Josh Spiegel on Mousterpiece Podcast about The Happiest Millionaire, (where he criticized a film from 1967 for mentioning Benghazi in a song.) I had to find Ehrlich's original article for context (http://www.indiewire.com/2018/04/marvel-movie-marathon-diary-infinity-war-1201958176/). This was from Ehrlich watching the entire series, even though he largely despises the MCU. (I think he did either on a dare or as part of a fundraiser.)

It was that last comment that really drove me up the wall because I think many/most/all of us can make a Top 5 list of Blockbuster filmmakers worse than the Russo Bros. What makes them the "absolute" worst? I can get into things they might've done better, but I think many filmmakers would've folded at the daunting task of bringing such a narrative to the screen. The entire article comes from such a deep place of snark it shouldn't have been allowed to be reposted as criticism.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 08, 2018, 04:26:06 AM
I saw that quote on Letterboxd too and was similarly aghast. The Russos are not even the worst among the MCU's roster of directors (that honour probably belong to Alan Taylor). In fact, they're probably the best action directors of the franchise and they rival Whedon in terms of humour.

I won't engage with the larger article though, because his initial, snide comment about Stark clearly demonstrates he's not trying to engage with the MCU on any level.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 08, 2018, 04:27:53 AM
Thor is the best,
I love the humor Hemsworth brings, but the weapon forging plot has probably been my least favorite on subsequent viewings because it's so detached from the Thanos story.

I think the Thanos/Gamora part was the weakest because it wasn't grounded in anything.

However, I do have a major problem. They (first Peter Parker, then others) attribute the "blow the bad guy out the airlock" thing to Aliens when that's really just a reference to Alien! I guess maybe I get the young kid making that mistake, but somebody like Iron Man should correct him. Alien is the superior film and the originator of that little trick (there's a chance it's in Dark Star too, I guess).

Aw, Junior, you're a true film nerd and I say that with the highest respect. :)

I am much more appalled at the notion that Peter Parker, nerd extraordinaire, would ever call Star Wars or Aliens an old movie.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 08, 2018, 04:42:51 AM
Quote
Critics need to catch up to what itís doing, what Marvelís place is in the culture at large, and what it means going forward.
I like this. I do think much of the criticism is based on old models regarding tentpoles, franchises and sequels. Marvel is doing something different and critics should adjust their thinking accordingly.

Agreed. Marvel has basically created a new genre, or at least a new paradigm. There's been enough of these movies that critics should have adapted by now. I'm tired of reading the same old criticisms every time a movie comes out.

@Junior: There's something funky going on with the font of the first paragraph.

Good read.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Junior on May 08, 2018, 01:06:13 PM
Thor is the best,
I love the humor Hemsworth brings, but the weapon forging plot has probably been my least favorite on subsequent viewings because it's so detached from the Thanos story.

That's interesting. I wonder how it'll seem to me later. I rewatched Ragnarok after seeing Infinity War and found it even more entertaining than the two times I saw it in theaters. I wonder how that good will will carry over when I see IW again (probably next week).

However, I do have a major problem. They (first Peter Parker, then others) attribute the "blow the bad guy out the airlock" thing to Aliens when that's really just a reference to Alien! I guess maybe I get the young kid making that mistake, but somebody like Iron Man should correct him. Alien is the superior film and the originator of that little trick (there's a chance it's in Dark Star too, I guess).
I took it as Peter knowing Aliens but not Alien. Tony Stark has always been tricky because Downey likes to use pop culture jokes - Squidward - but Stark is supposed to be too busy in his lab to make time for watching movies and TV.

I agree about the Peter Parker being a dumb kid bit. But Alien probably would have been a pretty big movie for young Tony Stark. It's the littlest thing but it bugs me.

Quote
Some writers seem upset that they had less of an understanding of whatís going on than they normally do, as characters are barely introduced nor are their powers or importance explained. Others argue that itís barely a movie, more like a series of setpieces with hardly any character development taking place within or between the explosions and fights. Still others claim that there are no stakes to the film thanks to its very comic book nature and the things that we know comic books do (namely: have something happen, then reverse or retcon that happening issues later).
Interesting that there wasn't so much about this with Deathly Hallows Part 2 even though it's the same situation. That one was clearly looked at as the last half of the final film while this doesn't get any of the same courtesy. So as much as I've read this, I've also read the criticism there's too much exposition, which I assume is the 90 seconds spent explaining the infinity stones to Tony Stark.

Yeah, I wonder where that difference in reaction comes from. Were people possibly believing the hype about this not being a two-parter? Were people just not thinking of these stories as being as connected as they are?

Quote
I think the criticism that says itís impossible to understand whatís going on here without having seen all other 18 movies in the franchise is misguided at best and insulting at worst.
I see no reason to even include Ant-Man as a film that must be seen since he's not in this film and what little you need to know you get from Civil War.
I also wonder just how much was known going into production about Ragnarok and Black Panther. Characters from both films you would expect to see here are just gone without explanation, and with Ragnarok it completely negates the hopeful ending of that film, much like Alien 3 does to Aliens.[/quote]

That's one of the weirdest parts for me, but I think it can be explained by the filming schedules. I guess they didn't want to place their bets on movies nobody had seen yet when they were filming IW. I'm hopeful but not expectant that Valkyrie and co show up a little more in the second movie.

Quote
Critics need to catch up to what itís doing, what Marvelís place is in the culture at large, and what it means going forward.
I like this. I do think much of the criticism is based on old models regarding tentpoles, franchises and sequels. Marvel is doing something different and critics should adjust their thinking accordingly.

I think the old Ebert dictum about reviewing the movie based on what it was trying to do gets overused to defend crap, but I think it's valuable in this case. Could Marvel have made a movie less dependent upon knowledge from the rest of the franchise? Probably, but that's not what they were doing and so we probably shouldn't judge them for that (alone, if you can tie it into something else that's actually in the movie, I'm a little more willing to hear that out).

From David Ehrlich:
Quote
and in the end it turns out the Marvel Cinematic Universe was just the story of Tony Stark trying to figure out faster and faster ways of getting dressed. a noble goal, to be fair, but still.

150 minutes of dank colors in deep space. precious few sparks of life. as much as i admired the film's penchant for sadism, the Russo bros continue to be the absolute worst.

Speaking of critics, this post on Letterboxd, with over 1100 likes, is the worst piece of criticism I've found since listening to Josh Spiegel on Mousterpiece Podcast about The Happiest Millionaire, (where he criticized a film from 1967 for mentioning Benghazi in a song.) I had to find Ehrlich's original article for context (http://www.indiewire.com/2018/04/marvel-movie-marathon-diary-infinity-war-1201958176/). This was from Ehrlich watching the entire series, even though he largely despises the MCU. (I think he did either on a dare or as part of a fundraiser.)

It was that last comment that really drove me up the wall because I think many/most/all of us can make a Top 5 list of Blockbuster filmmakers worse than the Russo Bros. What makes them the "absolute" worst? I can get into things they might've done better, but I think many filmmakers would've folded at the daunting task of bringing such a narrative to the screen. The entire article comes from such a deep place of snark it shouldn't have been allowed to be reposted as criticism.

I like Erlich, but he's definitely a contrarian and has a thing against most blockbuster movies. I'm not going to defend him on this either. He's good for getting me to realize the things that are bad about things that I love and he's really good for finding stuff I wouldn't hear about otherwise, but this doesn't do either of those things and so I'm not super interested in what he has to say. Bah!


Thor is the best,
I love the humor Hemsworth brings, but the weapon forging plot has probably been my least favorite on subsequent viewings because it's so detached from the Thanos story.

I think the Thanos/Gamora part was the weakest because it wasn't grounded in anything.

However, I do have a major problem. They (first Peter Parker, then others) attribute the "blow the bad guy out the airlock" thing to Aliens when that's really just a reference to Alien! I guess maybe I get the young kid making that mistake, but somebody like Iron Man should correct him. Alien is the superior film and the originator of that little trick (there's a chance it's in Dark Star too, I guess).

Aw, Junior, you're a true film nerd and I say that with the highest respect. :)

I am much more appalled at the notion that Peter Parker, nerd extraordinaire, would ever call Star Wars or Aliens an old movie.

I strongly disagree about the Thanos/Gamora part. Some of the grounding work was done in Guardians 2, but a good amount was done in the conversation between her and Peter Quill. That scene, despite its comedic capper, was really moving for me even though we've seen that kind of thing probably a thousand times now. This is where the history we have with the characters as audiences comes into the picture. We know what kind of a guy Peter Quill is. He's always looking for the joke. But he doesn't do that here. He takes her seriously so we take her seriously.

I really don't have a problem with Peter Parker. He sounds a heck of a lot like most teenagers who think that anything made before they were born is old. Maybe he'll grow out of it, maybe he won't. But it suits him.

And thanks, DH. Glad you gave it your time.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 08, 2018, 02:35:27 PM
Maybe I am just too enamoured with the Ultimate Marvel Peter who could quote Seinfeld at whim and whose sci-fi game was on point.

I also don't understand why HP gets a pass but the MCU doesn't. Maybe critics are more comfortable with book adaptations than comic books? Snobs.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Teproc on May 08, 2018, 04:07:38 PM
People knew the story with HP, literally. Marvel might be predictable, but there is a difference there, and they also insisted that it wasn't a "Part 1".

Re: "old", didn't we just have a thread about this ? The limit is basically your date of birht, which easily puts Aliens as "old" for this Peter Parker.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 08, 2018, 04:30:09 PM
@1SO: How many times have you seen the movie already? You mentioned multiple reviewings, so you're at three or more already? Isn't that way more than you usually go to the movies?
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: 1SO on May 08, 2018, 05:13:14 PM
I've seen it 3 times, which is unusual for me. I might tie that with Deadpool 2 and The Incredibles II. Guess I don't have Superhero Fatigue.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: oldkid on May 08, 2018, 08:18:23 PM
Just saw Infinity War last night.  I love this conversation here and there are some parallels to the conversation my daughters and I have been having off and on for the last twelve hours. 

How could characters resurrect, which they must do?  Some theories we discussed:
-Dr. Strange could have done something to the time stone
-The characters could all have been pulled into the soul stone, where they live in an alternative universe (similar to what happened in the comic book, I guess)
-Thanos could meditate on his ways and change his mind
-Another battle with Thanos, the time stone stolen and everything gets put back to the point where Thanos receives the time stone.
-Tony Stark wakes up and it's all a nightmare.  (Okay, we didn't discuss this one)

The tone matches the other Russo Bros films-- kinda funny, but mostly dark, especially Civil War. They can do funny on occasion, but they aren't Joss Whedon.

My main concern going in was too many characters to focus on.  I think the solution they came up with-- focus on the villain, and give other characters moments-- was a good one.  Then you cut most of the main characters out of the plot completely, so if they don't show up until the end of the next film, we won't miss them and there's enough breathing room for the other characters to develop.

But what I really want to talk about is Thanos, the representation of the Hebrew God, as represented in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. (BTW, the Greek word for God is Theos)


Sure, the flood was bad, but it isn't the same situation.  First, all of humanity was a murderous bunch at the time of the flood, so there was cause, not just a random pick, and God regretted his decision after, so that he would never do it again.  He repented, which is the opposite of Thanos, sitting on a porch, gazing at the peace he created. 

No, this is more similar to what is commonly called Armageddon, the apocalypse in which all humanity will suffer death or life, most of whom will be placed in their location without knowing why. Even if it isn't random, it will feel random to most of humanity.  And Thanos' priest/prophet is the representation of the church, proclaiming this genocide as salvation and hope, and the sacrifice of (most of) humanity as the just sacrifice.  Frankly, the Christian God is worse, because he will take the majority of humanity and torture them for all of eternity, millions upon millions of years, for not believing correctly.

This is seen in his killing of Gomora, as well.  First, I think his love of his step daughter is seen clearly from the GotG and all through this film.  He played favorites between his step-daughters, seen even in the first Guardians film, not because he despised Nebula, but because he only loved one daughter.  In Genesis, Abraham didn't care for his firstborn son, Ishmael, allowing his wife to do whatever her bias motivated her to do with Ishmael and his mother, her slave, so she left them in the desert to die of thirst.  But Isaac was Abraham's favorite and the one he dearly loved with all his heart.  God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac on an altar, saying, "Take your son, your only son, the son whom you love..." repeating three times to emphasize the close relationship they have.  And that relationship was to end in physical abuse, except that God pulled his punch at the end.

According to Chrisitian theologians, this was primarily done to provide a type of what God would do himself with his son. Kill and torture his son despite his love, because the salvation he would provide is worth the price. And that salvation also comes with a cost of killing and torturing (at least) half of humanity.

Ebony Maw is the leader of the cult of Thanos, proclaiming the salvation of Thanos, and calling all of those subjected to the will of Thanos the Children of Thanos.  In Christian theology, all of humanity are children of God because they are all created by God, but they are also in the kingdom of God, and so subject to the will of the all-controlling God.  The church calms the people, trying to make them all amenable to the will of God, especially when it seems evil, when God enacts random judgment against them, such as he did to Job.

From this perspective, Infinity War has a clear theological objective: to reveal the Hebrew God for who he is.  A sympathetic character to a certain degree, but ultimately evil. His will is arbitrary and hateful, even though his ultimate aim is peace in the universe. At best, God is considered misguided and immoral.  The Avengers, despite their misdeeds and errors are better than the one whom millions worship.  It is a takedown of the most popular theology on earth.

In defense of some who honor God, it is a heated discussion within Christianity whether the standard orthodox theology is correct.  Some say that the Bible never teaches eternal torture of humanity, that the separation of humanity is not based on belief, that God's people are supposed to receive but never give persecution, and the inclusion of all people.   Despite this discussion, the takedown of monotheistic religion in Infinity War is mostly correct.  Thanos must be seen as a lesser-evil version of God and if Thanos is wrong and evil, then God of orthodox theology is worse.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Will on May 09, 2018, 12:29:16 AM
What I hate about Infinity War is the feeling that nothing that came before it actually matters. For instance: where is Valkyrie? Why introduce a badass character like her then shove her off-screen? I know there will be apologists out there who will say "Well, surely, they couldn't fit her in, it's big enough already!" Hello. They fit Pepper Potts in. She hasn't been a relevant character to this universe since IRON MAN 3. And there's many examples of characters they fit in that don't need to be there. Why cut this for time - especially when RAGNAROK is the movie leads into this? Why? Thor's ONLY comment towards this is that "he killed half of my people" or something like that. The visuals suggests that he killed ALL of his people. There's not a single mention of Valkyrie in the entire movie. Not one.

But it's not just that. Rhodes switched sides on the Sokovia Accords just... because? Tony Stark's anger over the events of CIVIL WAR has subsided... just because? Speaking of Tony Stark, there's nothing this man can't do. He gets STABBED in the CHEST and he just whips out a spray, boom, healed. When Spider-Man is being taken up to space, he gets one of his own suits to fly up and grab Spider-Man. How are they going to explain away why Spider-Man can't have this suit in his next film? 110% guarantee it will just be forgotten. Not mentioned. It only existed at the time to save Spidey and now it's never going to be used again. Convenient. Also, they finally kill the Space Alien guy by... throwing him into space? And Iron Man just covers up the gaping space hole with... yet another gadget? What?

Look, I know a lot of people will say I'm nitpicking and that it's all not supposed to be taken seriously, but if the film is just going to play this fast and wild with its own universe's rules, how can anyone truly take anything that happens in it seriously? Good movies are all about building tension. The sad thing is that the Russo Brothers know this and don't seem to care. None of these characters ever felt like they were in real danger. Thanos has many attempts to kill these characters and it's not like he fails - he doesn't even try most of the time. He's a compelling character in theory but he's the most boring villain any of the MCU superheroes have went up against yet. We get that he's just trying to make the world a better place, but we see that he's clearly after so many of the Avengers here... until he's not. And why not? Because the plot won't allow him to kill anyone. It's not his character. It's the plot.

In CIVIL WAR, Zemo barely does a thing and accomplishes a far greater task than Thanos ever did: he pitted the Avengers against each other. In BLACK PANTHER, Eric may have died at the end, but he got into T'Challa's head - and he won't ever leave. Thanos kills half of the universe. It's evil, but it's dramatically weightless - without even considering the fact that many of them will return. The best villains challenge the protagonist on an ethical plane - they weed themselves into the consciousness of the protagonist. They reveal a weakness within the protagonist. No one actually fights Thanos intellectually. Every scene with Gamora tends to lean that way, but they all end with Gamora basically condemning him for his evilness.

So with the disconnect between the heroes and the real world along with a lack of an intellectually compelling villain, I couldn't connect emotionally with this film at all. I just didn't care, even after all of these years of build up. A lot of these characters felt completely new to me - despite having seen so many of their films, I felt that they were all thrown in here like none of the films happened at all (except maybe Thor and Spider-Man).

---

Another thing that bothered me is that Captain America and Black Widow let the henchmen go at the beginning of the film. There was an article that stated that Cap has killed about fourteen thousand people already, why the sudden "oh maybe we shouldn't" now?

Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Will on May 09, 2018, 12:53:56 AM
And I feel like the only reason people don't see it as comparable to Transformers is that Benedict Cumberbatch is more popular a face than Optimus Prime (though I'd argue that Optimus Prime is giving a more compelling performance at this point where as Benedict Cumberbatch seems to be reading cue cards with the direction "I WANT LESS FEELING...  I SAID LESS!!!). Seriously, what's his character? Boring white guy that is sometimes sarcastic?

It's just a boring film that does nothing for the genre but everything for people who love these characters. And most of them are well-written characters. It's the plot that lets them down. Like our own Adam/Josh said, I'd probably like the movie more if there were more scenes like trying to lift the hammer in AGE OF ULTRON. I haven't seen these films to care much for the action scenes in quite some time (punches don't land, edited to shreds, overuse of CGI, lack of stakes, etc.) and they're mostly equally subpar as dramatic arcs, so why not just go full-on comedy? FAST & FURIOUS is basically a comedy series at this point and it's more entertaining than most of these MCU movies. There's no pretense that anything truly matters in the FAST & FURIOUS movies because it's all about getting us to the next insane action set piece that is actually pretty well thought out at times.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: pixote on May 09, 2018, 03:44:12 AM
They were my North, my South, my East and West,
My working week and my Sunday rest,
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
I thought Wakanda was forever: I was wrong.

pixote
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 09, 2018, 04:53:07 AM
@oldkid:

Thanos' name comes from Thanatos, not Theos, which makes even more sense when you know that in the comics he is the literal lover of Death and worships her.

Also, you are a preacher you say?

I like the idea of continuing the Thanos arc in a direction where he would regret his actions and maybe seek redemption. They would have to find a very compelling reason for him to do so though if even sacrificing his daughter did not dissuade him.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 09, 2018, 05:11:26 AM
When Spider-Man is being taken up to space, he gets one of his own suits to fly up and grab Spider-Man. How are they going to explain away why Spider-Man can't have this suit in his next film? 110% guarantee it will just be forgotten. Not mentioned. It only existed at the time to save Spidey and now it's never going to be used again. Convenient.

I like how you're already getting mad about a movie that hasn't come out yet.

Stark covers the whole in the ship with nanobots, the stuff his suits is made from and whose whole point is to be able to adapt to different situations. If anything, you should be questioning how much of the stuff Tony should be able to fit in his gizmo.

Also, he has an arsenal at his disposal but you're surprised he would pack some healing potions? I'm pretty sure your basic private has at least a couple of band aids on him.

He's also seen to be less mad at Cap in the last scene of Civil War, when he's had a chance to calm down. He never hated the guy, they just had a falling out. And both Tony and Stark where pro-accords originally, but they've had the time to change their minds somewhat since with how things went down and the decisions Ross made.

Thanos doesn't kill anyone because he doesn't need to. He doesn't care if they live or die but they're not his enemies so much as hurdles. He only wants the stones and he can get them without wiping them out. He does try to kill the Titan team several times but once he's got the situation under control, there's no need to bother. In Wakanda he can just swat everyone aside. I think it makes him a better character. He's not a sadist out to murder everyone, he's a guy on a quest who is above unnecessary bloodshed.

Valkyrie is probably not in the movie for the reasons 1SO said, Ragnarok came out too little time before this.

And these movies are comedies and they know it. They're funnier than most of the regular supposed comedies that come out every year.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: 1SO on May 09, 2018, 10:41:06 AM
I love the balance given by AGB's post. I've always known that we come at movies from two different places, but I don't know if he's ever expressed his wants and expectations so clearly. It brings a nice balance to my take(s) on the film. Well Done!
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: philip918 on May 09, 2018, 12:02:10 PM
Since AGB and 1SO's post have struck a balance, does that mean DH's posts have to die?
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 09, 2018, 12:04:40 PM
As always, I am an agent of Chaos.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: oldkid on May 09, 2018, 04:48:47 PM
@oldkid:

Thanos' name comes from Thanatos, not Theos, which makes even more sense when you know that in the comics he is the literal lover of Death and worships her.

Also, you are a preacher you say?

I like the idea of continuing the Thanos arc in a direction where he would regret his actions and maybe seek redemption. They would have to find a very compelling reason for him to do so though if even sacrificing his daughter did not dissuade him.

Thanatos makes more sense.  In the comic, isn't his SO Lady Death?  So they are Death and Death?

Yes, I am a preacher.  I also don't have a problem poking holes in theology when it's just wrong.

Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 09, 2018, 05:54:42 PM
Thanos isn't Death. He is a follower of it, which happens to be a her. They are the sacrifices, she is the altar.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: 1SO on May 09, 2018, 09:15:00 PM
Stark covers the whole in the ship with nanobots, the stuff his suits is made from and whose whole point is to be able to adapt to different situations. If anything, you should be questioning how much of the stuff Tony should be able to fit in his gizmo.
I was wondering if he closed his stab wound with the same material he used on the ship, because it seemed like that would lead to severe complications.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Dave the Necrobumper on May 10, 2018, 06:41:41 AM
Just saw Infinity War last night.  I love this conversation here and there are some parallels to the conversation my daughters and I have been having off and on for the last twelve hours. 

The tone matches the other Russo Bros films-- kinda funny, but mostly dark, especially Civil War. They can do funny on occasion, but they aren't Joss Whedon.


Oh so true, the banter lacked the Whedon wit. That said the action was a match for Whedon's work.

Quote

My main concern going in was too many characters to focus on.  I think the solution they came up with-- focus on the villain, and give other characters moments-- was a good one.  Then you cut most of the main characters out of the plot completely, so if they don't show up until the end of the next film, we won't miss them and there's enough breathing room for the other characters to develop.

But what I really want to talk about is Thanos, the representation of the Hebrew God, as represented in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. (BTW, the Greek word for God is Theos)


Sure, the flood was bad, but it isn't the same situation.  First, all of humanity was a murderous bunch at the time of the flood, so there was cause, not just a random pick, and God regretted his decision after, so that he would never do it again.  He repented, which is the opposite of Thanos, sitting on a porch, gazing at the peace he created. 

No, this is more similar to what is commonly called Armageddon, the apocalypse in which all humanity will suffer death or life, most of whom will be placed in their location without knowing why. Even if it isn't random, it will feel random to most of humanity.  And Thanos' priest/prophet is the representation of the church, proclaiming this genocide as salvation and hope, and the sacrifice of (most of) humanity as the just sacrifice.  Frankly, the Christian God is worse, because he will take the majority of humanity and torture them for all of eternity, millions upon millions of years, for not believing correctly.

This is seen in his killing of Gomora, as well.  First, I think his love of his step daughter is seen clearly from the GotG and all through this film.  He played favorites between his step-daughters, seen even in the first Guardians film, not because he despised Nebula, but because he only loved one daughter.  In Genesis, Abraham didn't care for his firstborn son, Ishmael, allowing his wife to do whatever her bias motivated her to do with Ishmael and his mother, her slave, so she left them in the desert to die of thirst.  But Isaac was Abraham's favorite and the one he dearly loved with all his heart.  God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac on an altar, saying, "Take your son, your only son, the son whom you love..." repeating three times to emphasize the close relationship they have.  And that relationship was to end in physical abuse, except that God pulled his punch at the end.

According to Chrisitian theologians, this was primarily done to provide a type of what God would do himself with his son. Kill and torture his son despite his love, because the salvation he would provide is worth the price. And that salvation also comes with a cost of killing and torturing (at least) half of humanity.

Ebony Maw is the leader of the cult of Thanos, proclaiming the salvation of Thanos, and calling all of those subjected to the will of Thanos the Children of Thanos.  In Christian theology, all of humanity are children of God because they are all created by God, but they are also in the kingdom of God, and so subject to the will of the all-controlling God.  The church calms the people, trying to make them all amenable to the will of God, especially when it seems evil, when God enacts random judgment against them, such as he did to Job.

From this perspective, Infinity War has a clear theological objective: to reveal the Hebrew God for who he is.  A sympathetic character to a certain degree, but ultimately evil. His will is arbitrary and hateful, even though his ultimate aim is peace in the universe. At best, God is considered misguided and immoral.  The Avengers, despite their misdeeds and errors are better than the one whom millions worship.  It is a takedown of the most popular theology on earth.

In defense of some who honor God, it is a heated discussion within Christianity whether the standard orthodox theology is correct.  Some say that the Bible never teaches eternal torture of humanity, that the separation of humanity is not based on belief, that God's people are supposed to receive but never give persecution, and the inclusion of all people.   Despite this discussion, the takedown of monotheistic religion in Infinity War is mostly correct.  Thanos must be seen as a lesser-evil version of God and if Thanos is wrong and evil, then God of orthodox theology is worse.

[scratches head]So you, who I thought of as a believer in the Christian/Hebrew god, is not, or are you saying you believe in an evil god, or something else?

If Thanos is a god representation, is he a representation of Shiva the destroyer, a god who cleanses through destruction, and has a blue neck. The little I have read about Shiva has very little connection to Thanos otherwise, but the cleansing through destruction is a strong link.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: philip918 on May 10, 2018, 07:51:17 PM
If Thanos is a god representation, is he a representation of Shiva the destroyer, a god who cleanses through destruction, and has a blue neck. The little I have read about Shiva has very little connection to Thanos otherwise, but the cleansing through destruction is a strong link.

I always thought the "killing 50% to create a balance" was random and silly. Would make a lot more sense if he was the personification of the cuckoo clock speech from The Third Man.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: oldkid on May 11, 2018, 01:21:20 AM


[scratches head]So you, who I thought of as a believer in the Christian/Hebrew god, is not, or are you saying you believe in an evil god, or something else?


I am a believer in the God of Jesus, which is not exactly the God of Christian theology.  Like, the God of Christian theology destroys gays and doesn't allow women to lead.  The God of Christian theology also destroys anyone who is not of the Christian religion.  Not my God, but a God of orthodoxy.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 11, 2018, 02:09:06 AM
No one's yet mentioned the fact that this movie, for the first time, brought together on the screen all three Chrises, and if that's not a landmark I don't know what is.

If Thanos is a god representation, is he a representation of Shiva the destroyer, a god who cleanses through destruction, and has a blue neck. The little I have read about Shiva has very little connection to Thanos otherwise, but the cleansing through destruction is a strong link.

I always thought the "killing 50% to create a balance" was random and silly. Would make a lot more sense if he was the personification of the cuckoo clock speech from The Third Man.

I also thought it was a bit too silly for the main villain of the entire MCU. I get the logic when it comes to a Titan like planet, but to apply it to all planets indiscriminately, including those with twelve people and a sheep makes no sense.



[scratches head]So you, who I thought of as a believer in the Christian/Hebrew god, is not, or are you saying you believe in an evil god, or something else?


I am a believer in the God of Jesus, which is not exactly the God of Christian theology.  Like, the God of Christian theology destroys gays and doesn't allow women to lead.  The God of Christian theology also destroys anyone who is not of the Christian religion.  Not my God, but a God of orthodoxy.

The Manicheans are back, finally!
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Junior on May 11, 2018, 07:13:41 AM
Chris Pine is stranded in the DCU, alas.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Teproc on May 11, 2018, 07:55:17 AM
Chris Pine is stranded in the DCU, alas.

He is ?
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Junior on May 11, 2018, 08:31:36 AM
Well, for the moment.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: Teproc on May 11, 2018, 08:36:32 AM
Oh, Wonder Woman, right.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on May 11, 2018, 03:07:01 PM
Maybe we can still get Christopher Plummer.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: karlwinslow on May 11, 2018, 03:49:15 PM
Thanos isn't Death. He is a follower of it, which happens to be a her. They are the sacrifices, she is the altar.

this would have been so much better
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: philip918 on May 11, 2018, 05:25:45 PM
Thanos isn't Death. He is a follower of it, which happens to be a her. They are the sacrifices, she is the altar.

this would have been so much better

Unfortunately they killed Death in Thor: Ragnarok.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on June 05, 2018, 05:29:30 AM
I heard one of the best criticisms of the end of the movie on another podcast: Why didn't Thanos just double the amount of resources in the universe?
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: 1SO on June 05, 2018, 06:36:48 AM
Cute, but he was collecting weapons of Destruction. He could create the appearance of more resources, but it wouldn't be reality.
Title: Re: Avengers: Infinity War
Post by: DarkeningHumour on June 05, 2018, 06:44:45 AM
Surely the infinity stones can also create things. We're told they have literal infinite power.