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Filmspotting Message Boards => Movie Talk (Spoiler Edition) => Topic started by: FLYmeatwad on April 25, 2019, 09:43:26 PM

Title: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: FLYmeatwad on April 25, 2019, 09:43:26 PM
Reckon we'll need this. A little tired, so I'll hammer things out tomorrow (duh, Thor continues to be the best, and perhaps the only consistently good thing about this film?), but my biggest takeaways would likely be that this thing really meanders a good deal in the middle, and for a cinematic universe that is arguably at its worst when it's just a bunch of people talking about and chasing infinity stones, it's definitely an odd choice to literally make this film about people talking about and chasing infinity stones. Though I guess I do admire the subversion, and enjoyed the first encounter with Thanos. I would have liked that tone maintained throughout and really went with a character examination, but just as that starts to ramp up, we give way to the plot and it becomes all consuming.

Also not sure that losing half the people on earth would make things so desolate five years later, but who can say. I definitely think there would still be baseball teams.

Way about Iron Man dying, this film, as pretty much any film with Tony Stark at the center, is at its worst when RDJ just does his thing. Hemsworth continues to impress constantly, and has me hopeful that we may finally get a good GotG movie.

Going along with enjoying the parts where they subvert expectations, I really liked the choice to have no stingers.

Working through my thoughts on the big battle, because, at this point, we've seen it done so much that I'm not sure this brings anything new to the field. It doesn't capture the same heft that the big ones in LotR have, there aren't enough fronts to match GoT at its best, so I guess it most felt like a smaller scale version of the Ready Player One fight? Who knows.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: Dave the Necrobumper on April 26, 2019, 06:23:33 AM
A quick comment. Feel this film was deliberately longer just so they could get all the cameos in. Particularly the 1970s sequence which was a total padding bit with a nice bit of Tony getting to hug his father (which was still unnecessary padding).
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: 1SO on April 26, 2019, 01:21:15 PM
Hope they don't get tied up in knots over half the people aging 5 years and the other half not aging a day. It really stood out when Peter Parker went to school, because I wondered about all his classmates who didn't get dusted and would have graduated, or if school was cancelled, they'd be older and bigger looking.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: FLYmeatwad on April 26, 2019, 07:16:40 PM
I was wondering that too. Obviously based on the trailers it is safe to assume all of the core cast got dusted. Guess they could say Martin Starr wasn't, but he's at an age where you can just believe that he's teacher age give or take five years regardless, probably.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: 1SO on April 26, 2019, 09:47:30 PM
My wife thinks the Spider-Man trilogy will take place between Civil War and Infinity War, but I think Marvel needs to be careful of the audience getting frustrated about having to keep track of the time line.

BTW, I liked Captain Marvel's new haircut. Always hated a character with a military background having long, flowing hair. The short look suits her attitude. The brief exchange between her and Peter Parker is a confident Captain Marvel I want to see more of. Also liked Thanos using the Power Stone separately just to get her off of him.


So, Captain America returns all of the Infinity Stones. Makes the most sense with the Time Stone because the Sorcerer Supreme is in on the plan.

Does he re-inject Natalie Portman with the red matter? That's a scene I'd like to see a super nice guy pull off without guilt.

How does he put the purple Power Stone back? Nebula fried her arm getting it and Peter Quill used some space age device. Cap went in with just his wits and a suitcase.

What about the Soul Stone? Does he return it to Red Skull knowing that it means someone else down the line will be killed? He can't return it in exchange for Natasha.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: Will on April 27, 2019, 07:31:07 PM
First you had to sacrifice someone you loved to get the Soul Stone. Now you can just kill yourself for it. Okay!

Wish they clarified that a snap = wish? Because they can snap to bring back people and also to kill Thanos and his army so...

I also think it's hilarious that Tony makes, quite possibly, the greatest discovery in scientific history of mankind and Pepper Potts is all like... "Oh... Cool." I laughed so hard at this. No one else did. We just (and everyone in the film, apparently) accepts at this point that Tony is the Smartest Person of All Time, despite the fact that he started out as a weapons manufacturer.

...

This was fine.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: The Deer Hunter on April 28, 2019, 12:22:10 AM
What was everyone's expectations about characters dying? I figured it would either be Cap and Iron Man. I definitely didn't see Black Widow coming. Cap returning back to the 40's to live out his life was unexpected too.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: FLYmeatwad on April 28, 2019, 04:16:38 PM
Also figured that those two would be likely to go, especially hearing that they were both, Evans especially, pretty much done with the MCU. Kind of remember reading something about Hemsworth feeling the same, but also that seems to shift, and he seems fully on board at this point, which, as I said earlier, is great. If they want to bring back IM or CA it's easy enough for them to do so, they already pretty much set that up with CA, and if the post credits thing/inclusion of that kid at the funeral does mean anything then I guess they teased IM doing the same thing. Also didn't expect Black Widow to die, but didn't resonate with me much anyway. At some point I assumed that new Gomorrah would just replace dead Gomorrah, though it looks like dead dead Gomorrah isn't actually dead.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: Teproc on April 28, 2019, 05:18:34 PM
What was everyone's expectations about characters dying? I figured it would either be Cap and Iron Man. I definitely didn't see Black Widow coming. Cap returning back to the 40's to live out his life was unexpected too.

I thought all of the original Avengers would go. Only half, as it turned out (counting Cap).
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: Bondo on April 30, 2019, 08:55:32 PM
Wait, there was a mid/post-credits tag? I read specifically that there wasn't and my theatre put the lights up immediately.

Anyway, I also thought I had read Black Widow was getting a stand-alone, so now sure how that goes now. I suppose it's prior to this point in the timeline because magic. I get that they had to go with Black Widow because Hawkeye has family to reunite with, but on the other hand Hawkeye is the worst and should have died.

Anyway, I really liked this. It is in that top tier of the MCU with Black Panther, Captain Marvel and Ant Man. It also accomplishes the feat of making me like Infinity War more. One of my complaints about Infinity War (though certainly not the only) was being annoyed by the dusting mostly because I knew it wasn't going to take. And obviously it didn't but I think how Endgame handles this process retroactively makes the prior one seem less manipulative. I still think there are many other problems with Infinity War (namely Thanos being the absolute dumbest version of the Malthusian terrorist*).

I think Endgame contemplates mourning extremely well and handles time travel surprisingly well without making the exposition seem leaden. Putting it into a heist structure is entertaining and they also balanced the natural grief-stricken tone with a ton of really funny bits. The film's main weakness is it is just too damn long. I thought a good bit of the ending was dragged out (the Steve-Sam conversation could have been half as long, the funeral could have been half as long) and like mentioned above the 1970 scene really stretched as well. But I'll forgive it its nostalgia.

*If the stones can as easily just dust Thanos' crew or a random 50% of all life in the universe, why do a random 50% of life on the universe? Why kill half of endangered animals? If overpopulation is an issue, why not be selective about who you reduce? Why not dust white supremacists, bank executives or people who walk slow in front of you?
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: FLYmeatwad on April 30, 2019, 09:44:39 PM
Figure it's to just be a sweeping thing, especially if it drains one so much just making a blanket wish. But who knows.

There really isn't a traditional post-credits thing, and I imagine it can be nothing, I did like how it subverted that. The mid-credits thing is just pictures of the actors's signatures under images of their characters. At the very end though you hear some metal banging. Sounded like a hammer to me, but I had read people saying it was similar to the sounds of RDJ making the Iron Man suit in the first film. Which, of course, could also just be a throw back to how everything started, and not have any real implications.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: oldkid on April 30, 2019, 10:04:02 PM
I think Endgame was not a movie, but the final episode of a series.  For that, it works remarkably well.  It is MASH's Goodbye, Farewell and Amen, providing a layer of character buildiling, but also giving every major character an adieu.  It is the direct continuation of Infinity War, but it is the capstone of the whole 22 film experiment.  To miss a piece of the whole set, is to miss the depth of this movie, because there are references to almost every one of the films.  In this film, you can see the project as a whole, and this is it's fitting conclusion.  But it cannot stand on it's own.

But like the MASH finale, it is touching, it has depth, it has a sad humor.  It anticipates our grief and so causes it, even as we have moments of bittersweet joy.

But why time travel?  Does it have to be time travel?  I am so tired of this trope because it is so easy to have lazy writing and contradictions.  They chose to be right with the characters, but the time travel itself was inconsistent.  Sure, all the stones were put back... but there are multiple timelines.  How does the scientfic magic put Cap or anyone else in the correct timeline to put the stones back to get that timeline on track?  When Cap went back to have his happy ending, did he create another alternative timeline?  If so, how did he get back to Sam and Bucky's timeline?  Did Cap live through all of the stuff he could have prevented (Hydra's infiltration of SHEILD, for example) and just sit on his hands through it all because it'll get handled in the end.  Time travel only works by following some very strict rules and I don't know that they completely followed their rules.

That, and the death of Black Widow, are my only real complaints about the film. Everything else is wonderful.  I love the fact that they are all allowed to experience the trauma of the events, and that each of their PTSD looked different.  I loved pretty much everybody's end, especially Stark's and Thor's.  I loved that Paltrow got her moment in the end, although she'd been forgotten outside of Iron Man films.  I honestly think that they couldn't have done a better final episode.  I doubt they can top this, although I'll be happy to see them try.

Expectations as to who would die?  I knew about Cap and Stark.  Wouldn't have been surprised if Thor went.  Between Black Widow and Hawkeye, I thought Hawkeye would go.  But I guess they couldn't because he's a family man.  Black Widow got cheated, I think.

I loved the length, I thought the big battle was kinda cool, but mostly fan service, and I think Thanos was really well done, when you look at his character as a whole.  I really, really hope that Gomorrah will have a chance to get some healing in the next Guardians movie.

And Tom Holland is the best and I just can't wait for the next Spidey movie.  "That's nice."
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: 1SO on May 01, 2019, 01:44:46 AM
Anyway, I also thought I had read Black Widow was getting a stand-alone, so now sure how that goes now. I suppose it's prior to this point in the timeline because magic. I get that they had to go with Black Widow because Hawkeye has family to reunite with, but on the other hand Hawkeye is the worst and should have died.
When they announced the movie they said it would be about her pre-Stark adventures with Hawkeye.


Anyway, I really liked this. It is in that top tier of the MCU with Black Panther, Captain Marvel and Ant Man. It also accomplishes the feat of making me like Infinity War more.
Hard to believe you would make such a turnaround because you HATED Infinity War.


*If the stones can as easily just dust Thanos' crew or a random 50% of all life in the universe, why do a random 50% of life on the universe? Why kill half of endangered animals? If overpopulation is an issue, why not be selective about who you reduce? Why not dust white supremacists, bank executives or people who walk slow in front of you?
Thanos answers this in Infinity War when talking to Doctor Strange. He didn't want to set himself up as judge of who should live and die, but simply reduce the numbers by half with no prejudice or passion. That said, the amount of death suggests he overshot the mark by about an additional 20-30%.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: 1SO on May 01, 2019, 01:53:33 AM
I think Endgame was not a movie, but the final episode of a series.
My point of comparison is Deathly Hallows pt. 2 but everything else your wrote fits the same.

I think they chose time travel so they can play around with iconic moments in the 22-film story. That said, it ends up creating a flurry of problems like the ones you mentioned.

I loved pretty much everybody's end, especially Stark's and Thor's. 
What about Thor felt like an end? He's teamed up with the Guardians and left the door wide open for further adventures, which I read are in development.

Black Widow got cheated, I think.
Agree. The scene itself doesn't work, and it cheapens the nice PB&J scene between her and Steve Rogers. She doesn't get to find peace.

And Tom Holland is the best and I just can't wait for the next Spidey movie.  "That's nice."
You never knew there was a right way to play Peter Parker until he came along. I worry that he will have difficulty shedding the role, like how Daniel Radcliffe is so closely identified with Harry Potter.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: Beavermoose on May 01, 2019, 02:06:49 AM
My favorite part was the little anti-capitalist quote of when Howard Stark tells his son that he has regrets about how he got rich by only caring about himself.
Also drunk Thor yelling at Fortnite kids and The Hulk doing an awkward dab.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: oldkid on May 01, 2019, 04:10:55 PM
I think Endgame was not a movie, but the final episode of a series.
My point of comparison is Deathly Hallows pt. 2 but everything else your wrote fits the same.

I think they chose time travel so they can play around with iconic moments in the 22-film story. That said, it ends up creating a flurry of problems like the ones you mentioned.

I loved pretty much everybody's end, especially Stark's and Thor's. 
What about Thor felt like an end? He's teamed up with the Guardians and left the door wide open for further adventures, which I read are in development.

Black Widow got cheated, I think.
Agree. The scene itself doesn't work, and it cheapens the nice PB&J scene between her and Steve Rogers. She doesn't get to find peace.

And Tom Holland is the best and I just can't wait for the next Spidey movie.  "That's nice."
You never knew there was a right way to play Peter Parker until he came along. I worry that he will have difficulty shedding the role, like how Daniel Radcliffe is so closely identified with Harry Potter.

I have many of the same issues about calling  Deathly Hallows 2 a movie as well.   With both of these films, though, everyone who saw a portion of the previous films must see the end.  Wow, what moneymakers.

My “Why time travel” wasn’t a real question, but more along a whine.  I’m used to the sloppy storytelling in Marvel films, but  any time a time travel story pops up it tells me exactly how sloppy it will be (with some rare exceptions, e.g. 12 Monkeys).  Sure, it was fun to revisit scenes from past movies and to get otherwise impossible scenes.  But as far as stakes go, we all know it will all work out as soon as they say “time machine”

Thor’s story was an end because he is putting behind Asgard and that whole sequence of stories.  He’s starting anew.  Sure, we’ll see him again, but it won’t be the same, which is great and sad.

Tom Holland may not ever get a chance to really be anyone else.  But he will give us a true, memorable Spider-man character.  Just like Harry Potter.  Spider-Man’s true character remained in the realm of  comic books until Holland showed us how it’s done.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: Bondo on May 01, 2019, 07:18:11 PM
Thanos answers this in Infinity War when talking to Doctor Strange. He didn't want to set himself up as judge of who should live and die, but simply reduce the numbers by half with no prejudice or passion. That said, the amount of death suggests he overshot the mark by about an additional 20-30%.

If you accept his premise of overpopulation, this seems like one of those Kantian stances like somehow if you don't choose you have no responsibility. Like letting the train run over five people because at least you didn't flip the switch to make it run over only one. Never Thanos, Never Biden (https://theweek.com/speedreads/838554/brief-breakdown-joe-bidens-immanuel-kant-obsession), Never Kant!
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: Dave the Necrobumper on May 02, 2019, 06:09:16 AM
Thanos is not deigning he has responsibility, at no time did he suggest he did not consider himself responsible. This is just simply not wanting to be judge, because to be judge would require setting out a standard of what is acceptable and what is not and as soon as you set such a standard there are going to be edge cases that will be very difficult to decide.
How do you determine if a dog or a cat or a housefly meets the standard.
At what level of consciousness do you require to have the standard applied?
Does a person with an IQ of 50 have the same standard applied?
Do Klingon's have the same standard applied as humans?
Do you use a conservative religious standard or a liberal progressive one?

Red Dwarf (a British TV show) had an episode where they came across a judgement ship and it determined only a person's own morals could decide if you were guilty and if so how guilty. So if you thought yourself as having done bad things you would be punished, but another person who had done exactly the same things would not be if they did not think them bad.

I will use an image rule as an example of the problems with setting a standard. Base rule: "no nude images of children". Seems quite reasonable until you ask questions about the rule. What is nude? Topless, bottomless, front only, back only. Is any exposed skin acceptable? How much? Is a photo of a nude child suffering from napalm burns acceptable, is it acceptable if it is not the iconic one from the Vietnam war, and on and on and on. 7 volumes later you may have an acceptable set of rules to determine if the photo is acceptable under the "no nude images of children" rule, then you move onto the next rule.

I completely understand why he went with the I am not the judge. His goal was to depopulate the universe, so the various populations had a better chance to survive, judging who lives and who dies does little to nothing to achieve that goal.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: 1SO on May 04, 2019, 08:44:28 PM
Watched it again. Liked it more or less the same. Not as dense as Infinity War so there was little new to think about except that the Soul Stone heist doesn't work at all. It's not in the film and I can't imagine how the conversation over who goes after it would've gone when dividing up teams. Assuming they're unsure that death is necessary in retrieving it, I would like to know how the job feel to Clint and Natasha.

2 other sticking points I haven't read in any other Spoiler talk...

1. At the beginning, Nebula says she knows where Thanos is because he talked about "The Farm". Next scene, they found Thanos used the stone's again (two days ago, why not "a couple of hours ago"?) and track the stone's energy to find his location. So, did Nebula help narrow the search or was her talk about the farm unnecessary since it was his using the stones that gave away his location?

2. How does 2014 Nebula, with no Pym Particles, bring Thanos through the quantum realm for the finale? And not just Thanos, but his ship and his massive crew of warships and soldiers.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: Bondo on May 04, 2019, 09:36:27 PM
Nebula has Pym Particles for her return trip that they acquire by making her head go all funny and capturing her. Apparently that was enough for the whole lot.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: FLYmeatwad on May 06, 2019, 09:43:03 PM
I guess Spider-Man definitely takes place after Endgame. Suppose it's just good luck that all his bros got dusted as well.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: philip918 on May 30, 2019, 12:23:10 PM
Did I miss seeing future-Gamorah after the dusting? Is she still alive?
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: oldkid on May 30, 2019, 12:25:27 PM
Future-Gamorrah is dead.  Past Gamorrah came to the future with Thanos and switched sides.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: philip918 on May 30, 2019, 01:01:05 PM
Ugh, I guess that's what I meant. I didn't see Gamorah after the dusting. Did I just miss her?
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: oldkid on May 30, 2019, 01:06:12 PM
She was killed by Thanos for the stone, so she wouldn't be dusted, right?
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: philip918 on May 30, 2019, 02:35:04 PM
From what I've read they've left the fate of 2014 Gamora a mystery. Quill is apparently doing a scan for her life signature at the beginning of the Guardian's final scene with Thor. I'm sure Guardians 3 will deal with that in some way.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame
Post by: 1SO on May 30, 2019, 11:22:38 PM
I'm guessing her return will tie into the new concept of a multiverse created by messing with time. It was recently revealed that James Gunn was a major creative force in planning the next phase of Marvel. I'm glad Infinity War and Endgame didn't just drop a number of major changes with the Guardians in his lap for him to figure out while designing the 3rd film. He's been in the loop on all of it. I wouldn't be surprised if Guardians 3 involved the characters traveling to alternate realities to deal with events that made them such misfits.