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Filmspotting Message Boards => No Movie Talk Allowed => Topic started by: pixote on January 06, 2008, 08:44:18 PM

Title: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on January 06, 2008, 08:44:18 PM
Wait a minute... I thought Gus Van Sant was doing a film on Harvey Milk?
There's two projects in the works. I forget how they're supposed to be different.

I didn't want to derail another thread with this, but I'm curious about this use of "There's" to introduce a plural predicate ("There is two projects" ??).  I've caught myself doing this lately, but I don't know when or how it started.  Anyone have any ideas?  Most of these sneaky grammatical shifts of late get blamed on instant messenging, but that doesn't seem like a likely culprit 4 this one.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on January 06, 2008, 10:12:28 PM
So are you curious about whether it happens to all of us or are you curious about the history/acceptance/non-acceptance of its use?

(I catch myself doing it all the time, and then correct myself. )
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on January 06, 2008, 10:16:20 PM
There's about a billion things I get wrong in English every day. Whoever invented it is dumb. Their needs to be a law outlawing people from making up new words. That would stop all of the stupid things that there creating.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: choatime on January 06, 2008, 10:48:58 PM
I don't think I would ever say "There is two projects," but I've probably said something like "There's two projects" a time or two.  Is it just that "there's" is a irregular contraction for "there are"?  I mean, "there're" just looks so wrong.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on January 06, 2008, 10:57:35 PM
I don't think there's  :) a contraction for "there is."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on January 06, 2008, 11:00:38 PM
I don't think there's  :) a contraction for "there is."

Correction - don't think there's a use when the object is plural. Maybe it's accepted in informal speech though.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on January 06, 2008, 11:19:29 PM
So are you curious about whether it happens to all of us or are you curious about the history/acceptance/non-acceptance of its use?

I'm curious about both.  My feeling is that this particular usage of "there's" is a relatively new phenomenon (at least in its sudden ubiquity) ... does that seem correct to you?  Or is that I'm just late in noticing it?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ses on January 06, 2008, 11:36:04 PM
So are you curious about whether it happens to all of us or are you curious about the history/acceptance/non-acceptance of its use?

I'm curious about both.  My feeling is that this particular usage of "there's" is a relatively new phenomenon (at least in its sudden ubiquity) ... does that seem correct to you?  Or is that I'm just late in noticing it?

pixote

I feel that there's has always been used as a conjunction for there is.  It is just incorrect when someone uses it for there are. 
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on January 07, 2008, 01:19:36 AM
So are you curious about whether it happens to all of us or are you curious about the history/acceptance/non-acceptance of its use?

I'm curious about both.  My feeling is that this particular usage of "there's" is a relatively new phenomenon (at least in its sudden ubiquity) ... does that seem correct to you?  Or is that I'm just late in noticing it?

pixote

I'm certainly noticing it in myself more lately (at least, noticing it to correct it), but I'm not sure if that's because others are doing it more,  or not. I'll check around with the English dept where I teach and see what others think.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: crumpet on January 07, 2008, 07:19:34 AM
So nobody else but me uses "there're"?


(Although I don't doubt I'm guilty of a misplaced "there's" once in a while.)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ElectricOtter on January 07, 2008, 08:22:29 AM
I use there're in conversation a lot, probably just as much as I say there's.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on January 07, 2008, 12:12:05 PM
That was a blatant mistake; I fess. ('Cuz if I were to fess up, I'd be dangling a preposition.)  I would say, "There's two projects," but I should've caught it in writing.  And also, I love contractin' and abbreviatin'.  And starting sentences with a conjunction.  And making sentence fragments.

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on January 07, 2008, 12:20:01 PM
I figured you'd be cool with my using your post as a launching point for this conversation, but if I'd known that today was GRE humility day, I would have thought twice, even thrice.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on January 07, 2008, 12:23:16 PM
I'm totally cool with it.  I hate my own grammatical missteps when they aren't intentional.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: facedad on January 07, 2008, 12:24:18 PM
I'm totally cool with it.  I hate my own grammatical missteps when they aren't intentional.
Eh, the GRE is racist anyway.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on January 10, 2008, 03:49:25 PM
Here's a link with some interesting discussion of and stats about the use of "there's":

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002447.html (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002447.html)


And on another grammatical note:
A very nice account of an apparently natural (so to speak) linguistic phenomenon we've "all"  :) been waiting for:  "Yo! A new gender-neutral pronoun from, of all places, Baltimore."

http://webtools.uiuc.edu/blog/view?blogId=25&topicId=1335&count=1&ACTION=VIEW_TOPIC_DIALOGS&skinId=286 (http://webtools.uiuc.edu/blog/view?blogId=25&topicId=1335&count=1&ACTION=VIEW_TOPIC_DIALOGS&skinId=286)


Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on January 10, 2008, 03:53:41 PM
Quote
Here's a few thoughts...
Where's all the stories about...

Wow, those two example make "There's [plural]..." sound good in comparsion.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: winrit on January 10, 2008, 04:26:59 PM
And on another grammatical note:
A very nice account of an apparently natural (so to speak) linguistic phenomenon we've "all"  :) been waiting for:  "Yo! A new gender-neutral pronoun from, of all places, Baltimore."

http://webtools.uiuc.edu/blog/view?blogId=25&topicId=1335&count=1&ACTION=VIEW_TOPIC_DIALOGS&skinId=286 (http://webtools.uiuc.edu/blog/view?blogId=25&topicId=1335&count=1&ACTION=VIEW_TOPIC_DIALOGS&skinId=286)

I have been trying to stop using the term "guys". I've been using the word "folks" instead. For example, I'm switching from, "Do you guys want to go?" to "Do you folks want to go?" It is the best I could come up with, but I am not sure if "folks" works for a northerner. I feel like I don't have permission to use the word, but I don't like using the term "guys" either.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on January 10, 2008, 04:29:33 PM
And on another grammatical note:
A very nice account of an apparently natural (so to speak) linguistic phenomenon we've "all"  :) been waiting for:  "Yo! A new gender-neutral pronoun from, of all places, Baltimore."

http://webtools.uiuc.edu/blog/view?blogId=25&topicId=1335&count=1&ACTION=VIEW_TOPIC_DIALOGS&skinId=286 (http://webtools.uiuc.edu/blog/view?blogId=25&topicId=1335&count=1&ACTION=VIEW_TOPIC_DIALOGS&skinId=286)

I have been trying to stop using the term "guys". I've been using the word "folks" instead. For example, I'm switching from, "Do you guys want to go?" to "Do you folks want to go?" It is the best I could come up with, but I am not sure if "folks" works for a northerner. I feel like I don't have permission to use the word, but I don't like using the term "guys" either.

I've caught myself saying "guys" a lot lately, too, and I can't seem to find a good substitute. Maybe I'll try to see if "folks" works for a while.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on January 10, 2008, 04:30:58 PM
That's why we use "y'all."  When I moved here, I used to make fun of people who said "y'all," but it's an elegant contraction.  I love it now.  Now when I hear someone say "you guys" or, worse, "yous guys," I laugh to myself and think, "My God, you're stupid."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: winrit on January 10, 2008, 04:34:53 PM
Yeah, definitely "y'all" doesn't work for a northerner unless you're a transplant from Texas. The term guys could be regional as well. Is it just Midwesterners using it or the whole nation?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on January 10, 2008, 04:35:54 PM
"You guys" is almost as bad as, "pop," or phonetically - and therefore, more nerve-gratingly - "paaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhp."

Ha ha. Chicago people are stupid.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: m_rturnage on January 10, 2008, 04:38:31 PM
"You guys" is almost as bad as, "pop," or phonetically - and therefore, more nerve-gratingly - "paaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhp."

Ha ha. Chicago people are stupid.

I don't know why, but whenever you make fun of the way Chicago people talk, I start laughing really really hard.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on January 10, 2008, 04:44:31 PM
"You guys" is almost as bad as, "pop," or phonetically - and therefore, more nerve-gratingly - "paaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhp."

Ha ha. Chicago people are stupid.

:)

big surprise, i try not to use "guys" and even irritate some lucky folks with clarifications - "she isn't a guy, is she?"  i tend to use folks, but y'all also works.  the teens i work with love making fun of my goofy language choices, but it is fantastic when they start using stuff :)

as far as "yo", maybe i'll give it a try.

ah, fun with language :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on January 10, 2008, 04:53:44 PM
skjerva, try "people" instead of "folks".  I've been in that situation where 7th graders hated "boys and girls" so I switched to "people".

Also, alexarch, "ya'll" is an elegant collective pronoun.   "All ya'll" is doubly wonderful.  My Aussie husband loves both terms and finds both very handy. 
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on January 10, 2008, 04:57:10 PM
Dammit.  You were supposed to take the bait, get all angry and all, "Nuh-uh!"  And I'd be all like, "Yuh-huh!"  And then I'd like fly.  Like in a plane.  To Chicago.  And then I'd like sit on your head and fart.  And then like you'd give me a wedgie.  And then I'd like hit you in the kidney, causing serious renal failure.  And then you'd turn yellow.  And I'd be all, "HaHa!"  And then like you'd get out of the hospital and skin my cats alive and hang them from meat hooks in my apartment.  And then I'd like come into your classroom with a shotgun and blow the hands off the nearest teenager and carve out his eyes with a pairing knife.  And then like, you'd rape my sister and cut off her head.  And then I'd like realize how ridiculous this all was and I'd extend my hand to yours.  And we'd get a beer.  And we'd laugh and laugh and laugh.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on January 10, 2008, 04:58:27 PM
skjerva, try "people" instead of "folks".  I've been in that situation where 7th graders hated "boys and girls" so I switched to "people".

Also, alexarch, "ya'll" is an elegant collective pronoun.   "All ya'll" is doubly wonderful.  My Aussie husband loves both terms and finds both very handy. 

i use "people" sometimes, the kids get a hoot out of that one, too :)

Dammit.  You were supposed to take the bait, get all angry and all, "Nuh-uh!"  And I'd be all like, "Yuh-huh!"  And then I'd like fly.  Like in a plane.  To Chicago.  And then I'd like sit on your head and fart.  And then like you'd give me a wedgie.  And then I'd like hit you in the kidney, causing serious renal failure.  And then you'd turn yellow.  And I'd be all, "HaHa!"  And then like you'd get out of the hospital and skin my cats alive and hang them from meat hooks in my apartment.  And then I'd like come into your classroom with a shotgun and blow the hands off the nearest teenager and carve out his eyes with a pairing knife.  And then like, you'd rape my sister and cut off her head.  And then I'd like realize how ridiculous this all was and I'd extend my hand to yours.  And we'd get a beer.  And we'd laugh and laugh and laugh.

lol
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on January 10, 2008, 04:59:18 PM
Wish I could use "ya'll" - it is really nice - I think I'd just feel too self-conscious. No one says it around here, and I'm not as daring as you, skjerva.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: lise on January 10, 2008, 05:00:23 PM
I use all y'all sometimes and get a lot of giggles directed at me because of it.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on January 10, 2008, 05:01:13 PM
Wish I could use "ya'll" - it is really nice - I think I'd just feel too self-conscious. No one says it around here, and I'm not as daring as you, skjerva.

surprise yourself, it is soooo fun!  try it in your next class!  everybody's doing it!  it feels good!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on January 10, 2008, 05:22:24 PM
I don't know why, but whenever you make fun of the way Chicago people talk, I start laughing really really hard.
Ah shucks.  Thanks.  It's very aggravating when people don't take the bait.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: winrit on January 11, 2008, 12:28:10 PM
I was thinking today about the abbreviation "im" today. It seems funny just thrown into a sentence. Is that the right way to abbreviate "instant message"?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on January 11, 2008, 02:53:14 PM
I was thinking today about the abbreviation "im" today. It seems funny just thrown into a sentence. Is that the right way to abbreviate "instant message"?

Maybe in caps usually? IM?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: karlwinslow on January 13, 2008, 02:20:52 PM
I chuckled at this.

I got the 3th Anniversary edition of Jaws

How would that be pronounced?  Thirth?  Threeth?  ;)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: crumpet on January 13, 2008, 02:32:23 PM
I'd go with thirth.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on January 23, 2008, 03:39:03 AM
His performance in Brokeback Mountain is one for the ages....and his death reminds me of a quote uttered at the time of Abraham Lincoln's passing that seems so fitting at this moment: "Now, he belongs to the ages."

I didn't want to derail the Heath Ledger thread with this, but there was a New Yorker article (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/05/28/070528fa_fact_gopnik) last May about that Lincoln quote and whether it's more likely that the speaker said the slightly less grand, "Now he belongs to the angels."  Not a great article, but still a few interesting bits.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on March 20, 2008, 01:26:33 PM
I wish sports announcers would retire the phrase "You talk about..." from their sentence-opening repertoires.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on March 20, 2008, 01:52:57 PM
Man, I love words:

"In this box are all the words I know," he said. "Most of them you will never need, some you will use constantly, but with them you may ask all the questions which have never been answered and answer all the questions which have never been asked. All the great books of the past and all the ones yet to come are made with these words. With them there is no obstacle you cannot overcome. All you must learn to do is to use them well and in the right places."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on March 21, 2008, 10:13:56 AM
Where's the box?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on March 24, 2008, 01:23:47 PM
The comma as and, dash.

Using the above as an example, one saves very few keystrokes but adds a whole lot of confusion.  I can somewhat understand it in the context of a headline because real estate is so valuable there.  Otherwise, could someone please justify the above example?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on March 24, 2008, 01:26:59 PM
I can't figure out what you're talking about exactly...

a whole lot of confusion

Well, that I got.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on March 24, 2008, 01:37:42 PM
The Onion uses it a lot in its headlines.

Area Man Loses Limb, Ability to Self-Pleasure

I'm reading a Dave Eggers book of short stories and he uses it a lot, too much.

Get it?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on March 24, 2008, 01:49:14 PM
The comma as and, dash.

So do you mean the comma is used in place of "and"? If so, I'd say efficient (or funny) in a headline maybe, but not so much in a book, mostly irritating there.

******
We passed by this sign for a store in some kind of outlet mall as we were driving down to Seattle yesterday:

Sewer's Dream

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on March 24, 2008, 02:00:28 PM
You got it. I'm really loving this book.  I love how he stretches grammatical conventions. This is a case where the first time I saw it I stopped, re-read the sentence, and thought, "That's pretty cool." Now I'm ever-so-slightly annoyed by it but still very curious about it.

*****

I think a sewer would dream about clean water mostly.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on March 24, 2008, 02:02:33 PM
On the elevator doors in a COLLEGE dorm I saw this:

Nacho
Nachos
Their
Here!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on March 24, 2008, 02:08:36 PM
Add a comma or colon after "nachos" and you'd have yourself a really tough existentialist ponderable. How does a nacho's here differ from my own?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on March 24, 2008, 02:16:12 PM
On the elevator doors in a COLLEGE dorm I saw this:

Nacho
Nachos
Their
Here!

You should grab a marker, cross out "Their" and replace it with "There" ...

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: karlwinslow on March 24, 2008, 02:35:55 PM
nacho's? 
they're
hear
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on March 24, 2008, 02:46:44 PM
"Nachos: they're here!"


Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: karlwinslow on March 24, 2008, 02:52:25 PM
"nachos: because they're just a little mexican"
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on March 24, 2008, 03:02:51 PM
Not sure the 'a' should be italicised in that example...
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: karlwinslow on March 24, 2008, 05:17:47 PM
Not sure the 'a' should be italicised in that example...

yeah that made it sound like a mexican tiny person.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Basil on March 30, 2008, 07:50:59 PM
In English class last year, I was given the assignment of writing a story in six words. Sadly, I could not spell all six of them correctly. Apparently, cemetary is actually spelled cemetery. Doesn't my way look better?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on March 30, 2008, 07:52:05 PM
No.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Basil on March 30, 2008, 07:52:59 PM
Jerk.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on March 30, 2008, 07:57:00 PM
Rat.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Basil on March 30, 2008, 08:00:17 PM
Hey man, that is uncalled for. Moderators, if you please.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on March 30, 2008, 08:05:35 PM
I'm shaking in my boots. Well, my sneakers. I'm not really wearing them right now, but if I was, I would be shaking in them. I don't even have socks on right now.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on March 31, 2008, 12:53:04 PM
What was the story?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on May 10, 2008, 09:45:30 PM
You should probably move your computer out of the greenhouse, it's starting to affect your brain.
I know this is an appropriate query for faceboy.  Please explain the difference between affect and effect as verb.  (I understand effect as a noun.)  And this is a sincere request.  I'm all into words right now.

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/affect.html

I think, basically, "effect" as a verb means "to create" or "to bring about" whereas "affect" means "to have influence on" — alter, impact, etc.  So Obama will effect change, whereas McCain will affect my sanity.

I hope that answers your queery.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on May 10, 2008, 10:07:35 PM
You should probably move your computer out of the greenhouse, it's starting to affect your brain.
I know this is an appropriate query for faceboy.  Please explain the difference between affect and effect as verb.  (I understand effect as a noun.)  And this is a sincere request.  I'm all into words right now.

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/affect.html

I think, basically, "effect" as a verb means "to create" or "to bring about" whereas "affect" means "to have influence on" — alter, impact, etc.  So Obama will effect change, whereas McCain will affect my sanity.

I hope that answers your queery.

pixote
See, I still don't still see the difference.  And every time I come to a point in a sentence where I have to use one of the two, I'll start flop-sweating.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on May 10, 2008, 10:09:11 PM
Have an example?

Also, does it help to relate the verbs to the nouns?  effect = put into effect, affect = change the affect of?

This is important to me because I am deathly afraid of flop-sweat.

Wait, what is flop-sweat anyway?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on May 10, 2008, 10:18:04 PM
Well the dictionary is certainly no help here:

Quote
af·fect
–verb (used with object) 1. to act on; produce an effect or change in

But, anyway, when in doubt, go with "affect" — it's much more common (in verb form).

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on May 10, 2008, 10:18:45 PM
I've always thought that a politician endeavored to affect change, when according to your article Obama wishes to effect change.  It's such a fine, fine point; I'm not sure I'll ever be sure.  It's like the to two Spanish words for "to be." Yo estoy cansado.  Yo soy Alex.  The definitions are so close to each other that it's really difficult to understand the fine distinction.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: duder on May 10, 2008, 10:25:52 PM
It's like the to two Spanish words for "to be." Yo estoy cansado.  Yo soy Alex.  The definitions are so close to each other that it's really difficult to understand the fine distinction.

No, the distinction is pretty clear  :P
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on May 10, 2008, 10:26:46 PM
Sure, when you're sober in Portugal.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on May 10, 2008, 10:39:29 PM
Have an example?

Also, does it help to relate the verbs to the nouns?  effect = put into effect, affect = change the affect of?


I think you mean "affect = change the effect of"

"Affect" we rarely use as a noun. In other words, if you can put a "the" in front of it, you almost certainly need "effect."

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on May 10, 2008, 10:43:06 PM
How about this one: "anxious" vs. "eager"

I often say something like, "I'm anxious to see [insert film I really want to see]."

But "anxious" implies "anxiety" or "fear."

Should we be sticklers and insist on "eager" instead of "anxious"?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on May 10, 2008, 10:47:23 PM
Also, does it help to relate the verbs to the nouns?  effect = put into effect, affect = change the affect of?
I think you mean "affect = change the effect of"

No, I meant "affect" (in the psychological sense).

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on May 10, 2008, 10:47:37 PM
I fear seeing movies sometimes.  I like drama in my verbs.  "Eager to see a movie" makes me think that I'm creaming my jeans to see a movie.  "Anxious to see a movie" makes think me that I'm tremulous about the outcome of said movie-going.  I'd rather estoy the latter.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on May 10, 2008, 11:07:45 PM
Also, does it help to relate the verbs to the nouns?  effect = put into effect, affect = change the affect of?
I think you mean "affect = change the effect of"

No, I meant "affect" (in the psychological sense).

pixote

I see. Please use in that sense in a sentence.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on May 11, 2008, 05:14:52 AM
Have an example?

Also, does it help to relate the verbs to the nouns?  effect = put into effect, affect = change the affect of?


I think you mean "affect = change the effect of"

"Affect" we rarely use as a noun. In other words, if you can put a "the" in front of it, you almost certainly need "effect."



I don't think 'affect' is ever a noun, is it? 


Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on May 11, 2008, 08:04:28 AM
I don't think 'affect' is ever a noun, is it?
Not normally.  Apparently, it's only used properly as a noun in psychology, and I've been using it improperly to mean an affectation.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on May 11, 2008, 09:03:55 AM
Kudos.

Only recently I discovered there was no difference between the words 'insecrure' and 'unsecure', though I've never heard anyone talk of 'feelings of unsecurity'.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on May 14, 2008, 11:37:39 PM
Question: What's the difference between "falling action" and "denoument"?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on May 14, 2008, 11:39:37 PM
I'm pulling this out of my ass here, but...

Falling action doesn't necessarily have to be the last half of the movie. Denouement is the very bottom of the action curve, I think.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on May 14, 2008, 11:49:23 PM
That's kinda what I was thinking as well - thanks.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on May 16, 2008, 12:02:00 AM
stuff = syntax?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on May 28, 2008, 10:05:17 AM
What do people mean when they call a film or filmmaker pretentious?  I see it all the time, but it's not a word that resonates with me much at all.  Please help.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on May 28, 2008, 10:56:11 AM
I usually take it to mean the filmmaker tried wow us with something that, as it turns out, was well beyond his abilities. In other words, he took a shot and missed.

I always feel when the word pretentious is used it is the intention of the person using it to imply snobbery or elitism. Right, or wrong.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: m_rturnage on May 28, 2008, 11:39:34 AM
Here is what Dictionary.com says:


Quote
pre·ten·tious     (prĭ-těn'shəs) 
adj. 

   1. Claiming or demanding a position of distinction or merit, especially when unjustified.
   2. Making or marked by an extravagant outward show; ostentatious.

Usually, I use the word to describe a film when I have sat through an elaborate waste of time and effort to hear a message I already knew.

As in, "I just spent two and a half hours of my life to learn that it is sad to be sad."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on May 28, 2008, 11:43:40 AM
Strange, my dictionary simply says 'M Night Shamalan'
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: m_rturnage on May 28, 2008, 01:10:03 PM
Strange, my dictionary simply says 'M Night Shamalan'

I say this about Michael Flatley, but it applies to so many people. "I don't need to love him because he loves himself enough for both of us."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: winrit on May 28, 2008, 03:14:39 PM
I need to know how to write "you all". Do you spell it out, as in, "Do you all want ice cream". Is there some sort of abbreviation I should use?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: m_rturnage on May 28, 2008, 03:34:34 PM
I need to know how to write "you all". Do you spell it out, as in, "Do you all want ice cream". Is there some sort of abbreviation I should use?

Y'all - it is so effective, the word "do" is rendered moot and thus dropped from the sentence

As in, "Y'all want ice cream?"

If you want to be even more inclusive, you can use "all y'all."

As in, "All y'all want ice cream?"

I am from Texas.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on May 28, 2008, 03:41:21 PM
If you want to be even more inclusive, you can use "all y'all."

To this point, I wish there was a good version of Smog's "The Well" on YouTube.  Here are the lyrics (http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=3530822107858551335), in any case.

It's such a fantastic song.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: winrit on May 28, 2008, 03:52:45 PM
If you want to be even more inclusive, you can use "all y'all."

To this point, I wish there was a good version of Smog's "The Well" on YouTube.  Here are the lyrics (http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=3530822107858551335), in any case.

It's such a fantastic song.

pixote

That's pretty good y'all.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on May 28, 2008, 03:56:29 PM
(with a comma after 'good', if we're being pedantic)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on May 28, 2008, 06:29:36 PM
I need to know how to write "you all". Do you spell it out, as in, "Do you all want ice cream". Is there some sort of abbreviation I should use?

I prefer "does er'one want ice cream."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on May 28, 2008, 06:39:05 PM
But it's clumsy, as you'd really need a second apostrophe after the E.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on May 29, 2008, 02:25:32 PM
True, it is a single word double contraction. When said though it is not as clumsy as it looks: e'r'one looks terrible but there is slang to general usage precedent: fo'c's'le.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on May 29, 2008, 02:28:34 PM
The horror of it all.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: lise on May 29, 2008, 09:36:05 PM
no the horror is this conversation ... i may have participated in in college

ya eat yet?
nah you?
nah y' 'ant to?
a'ight.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on May 30, 2008, 04:17:07 AM
Were speech impediments common at your university?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on June 17, 2008, 02:50:32 PM
It's really simple.

roll: move by turning over or rotating

role: a part, or character, that an actor creates in a performance
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on June 17, 2008, 02:54:37 PM
roll: move by turning over or rotating

Also, roll, as in a small rounded portion of bread.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on June 17, 2008, 02:56:17 PM
roll: move by turning over or rotating

Also, roll, as in a small rounded portion of bread.

I was trying not to confuse 'em.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on June 17, 2008, 04:34:19 PM
Your definition of role is too specific ;)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: choatime on June 17, 2008, 06:03:56 PM
The one that always gets me is the list of students in the class.  This is the roll, right?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on June 17, 2008, 06:10:45 PM
The one that always gets me is the list of students in the class.  This is the roll, right?

right
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on July 18, 2008, 06:58:32 PM
It's weird that eschewing is a real word.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on July 18, 2008, 07:16:10 PM
It's weird that eschewing is a real word.

pixote

Are you taking um bridge at that?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on July 19, 2008, 04:50:44 PM
Saw a sign today, chalked up on a blackboard:

"Live sport's coverage here!"


THANKFULLY a brilliant punctuation freedom fighter had smudged out the offending apostrophe. That's the kind of terrorism I can appreciate.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: duder on July 28, 2008, 07:48:10 PM
(http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/burn-runnerup2.jpg?w=500&h=488)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on July 29, 2008, 01:23:45 AM
Saw a sign today, chalked up on a blackboard:

"Live sport's coverage here!"


THANKFULLY a brilliant punctuation freedom fighter had smudged out the offending apostrophe. That's the kind of terrorism I can appreciate.

yeah, i love bad apostrophes in signs, there is a shop in town that has beef gyro's cigarettes painted on the building's front - i like to imagine the name of the proprietor is Beef Gyro
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on July 29, 2008, 02:00:06 AM
(http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/burn-runnerup2.jpg?w=500&h=488)

in the future all will use yr.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on July 29, 2008, 02:39:25 PM
That's what I use for year...

How about ur?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on July 29, 2008, 03:05:49 PM
never been a fan of ur as it sounds most like U-R as opposed to yr (actually just a shorted version of cowboy slang "yer") which can fit into both teh conjunction or the posessive.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: choatime on July 29, 2008, 03:29:56 PM
For me, Ur is an ancent city in Mesopotamia, and yr is short for "year."   

On shepherd forums, does "us" mean more than one female sheep?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: facedad on July 29, 2008, 03:31:57 PM
Ah, the Game of Ur. How I loved you.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on July 29, 2008, 07:27:48 PM
At first glance, this appears to be genius:

http://quotation-marks.blogspot.com/ (http://quotation-marks.blogspot.com/)

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: duder on July 30, 2008, 06:16:41 AM
At first glance, this appears to be genius:

http://quotation-marks.blogspot.com/ (http://quotation-marks.blogspot.com/)

pixote
It is genius.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on July 30, 2008, 04:13:41 PM
Is there a grammatical right or wrongness to using numbers when writting?

ex:
I have 2 pet ducks.
I have two pet ducks. (this, of course, seems more proper... but I'm asking technically)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Basil on July 30, 2008, 04:16:05 PM
Typically, the number is spelled out only if it is less than 100.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: m_rturnage on July 30, 2008, 04:19:33 PM
Typically, the number is spelled out only if it is less than 100.

In business writing situations, it is spelled out if less than ten, unless it is used in a series that includes numbers greater than ten.

For example,

I need three TPS reports.

Vs.

I need TPS reports from routing bays 8, 14, 32, and 99.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on July 30, 2008, 04:22:04 PM
I need 11 TPS reports from routing bays eight and nine, and three-and-fourteen-hundredths pounds of sugar.  ???

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: m_rturnage on July 30, 2008, 04:26:55 PM
I need 11 TPS reports from routing bays eight and nine, and three-and-fourteen-hundredths pounds of sugar.  ???

pixote

In that case, they would all be numerical.

I need 11 TPS reports from routing bays 8 and 9, and 3.14 pounds of sugar.

Once you cross the line into digits, there is no going back.

This is the rules for technical writing. The rules for rhetorical writing and formal writing may be different.

http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/grammar-how-to-write-numbers.aspx (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/grammar-how-to-write-numbers.aspx)

Whether to use a numeral or to spell out a number as a word is a matter of style. For general writing, most guides agree that you should use words for the numbers one through nine, but for larger numbers the rules vary wildly from style guide to style guide. Some say to use words for the numbers one to one hundred, one to ten, any word that can be written with one or two words, and so on. Typically, people who write business or technical documents are more likely to use numerals liberally, whereas people who write less technical documents are more likely to write out the words for numbers. If someone handles numbers a different way than you do, they're probably using a different style guide, so the best advice I can give you is to pick a style and stick with it when it makes sense. (Since I used to be a technical writer, I write out the words for numbers one through nine, and use numerals for most other numbers.)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on July 30, 2008, 05:36:38 PM
Pet peeve: I cannot stand the word utilizeUse can always be...well, used...in its place.  Use takes up less space and the author who uses use doesn't sound like a prick.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on July 30, 2008, 05:40:38 PM
You're like a noughties Mark Twain.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on July 30, 2008, 05:56:19 PM
Pet peeve: I cannot stand the word utilizeUse can always be...well, used...in its place.  Use takes up less space and the author who uses use doesn't sound like a prick.

I wonder that about a lot of words.  When the hell am I supposed to use quietude instead of quiet, for instance?

That said, I really like the idea of that word.  It sounds like silence... with an attitude.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on July 30, 2008, 06:11:52 PM
I can get behind quietude, especially with your description.  It's really just utilized that pisses me off.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on July 30, 2008, 10:13:37 PM
You're like a noughties Mark Twain.

ok, I feel the opposite about noughties as I do about Potterfile. 
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on July 31, 2008, 05:46:44 AM
Potterfile means what, exactly?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: duder on July 31, 2008, 08:08:57 AM
Potterfile means what, exactly?

I think they mean Potterphile (which is self-explanatory).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on July 31, 2008, 08:12:56 AM
Noughties is fine. It'll have to be - the blood decade's nearly over!

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on August 01, 2008, 03:01:56 PM
I changed "recasted" to "recast" in a thread title and now I'm wondering which is really right.  "Recasted" looked so wrong. 
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 01, 2008, 03:33:18 PM
I changed "recasted" to "recast" in a thread title and now I'm wondering which is really right.  "Recasted" looked so wrong. 

I'm thinking that since "casted" isn't a word, then "recasted" isn't either. Yeah?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on August 01, 2008, 03:34:06 PM
I think recast is better, as the 'ed' is superfluous. But is either even a word?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Think_Long on August 01, 2008, 04:27:05 PM
recast is, as far as i know, you can put the 're' prefix to almost any verb
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on August 01, 2008, 04:33:22 PM
recast is, as far as i know, you can put the 're' prefix to almost any verb

And yet a comma should never be used in place of a semicolon!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Think_Long on August 01, 2008, 08:40:18 PM
recast is, as far as i know, you can put the 're' prefix to almost any verb

And yet a comma should never be used in place of a semicolon!

very droll sir, very droll
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on August 02, 2008, 12:56:15 PM
And yet true.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 19, 2008, 05:14:20 PM
. and yes, i enjoy difference, how boring would it be if we all thumbs-upped every film in unison . that said, i hardly go out of my way to incite, and what i share with y'all are my thoughts and beliefs on not only film, but why i think film is valuable, how it relates to the world - unfortunately, not a lot of people here do that .

skjerva, what's the thinking behind your occasionaly use of periods at the beginning of paragraphs and spaces on each side of periods (and sometimes commas) in between sentences?  It doesn't mean anything to me as a reader, I'm afraid.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on August 19, 2008, 05:32:33 PM
. and yes, i enjoy difference, how boring would it be if we all thumbs-upped every film in unison . that said, i hardly go out of my way to incite, and what i share with y'all are my thoughts and beliefs on not only film, but why i think film is valuable, how it relates to the world - unfortunately, not a lot of people here do that .

skjerva, what's the thinking behind your occasionaly use of periods at the beginning of paragraphs and spaces on each side of periods (and sometimes commas) in between sentences?  It doesn't mean anything to me as a reader, I'm afraid.

pixote

. just (sometimes) trying something out with the periods, playing around . i kinda like the look of it . the comma issue is something altogether different, i have a long-standing issue with obsessive use :) 
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on August 19, 2008, 05:34:56 PM
. just (sometimes) trying something out with the periods, playing around . i kinda like the look of it . the comma issue is something altogether different, i have a long-standing issue with obsessive use :) 

Punctuation is a visual clue for content and meaning.  It's really not meant as decoration; but if it makes you happy, then I'm happy.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on August 19, 2008, 05:52:09 PM
Even if it made skjerka crushingly unhappy, I'd still rather he didn't 'decorate'. Punctuation is a beautiful thing, but only when it isn't being figuratively raped.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on August 19, 2008, 05:57:18 PM
Even if it made skjerka crushingly unhappy, I'd still rather he didn't 'decorate'. Punctuation is a beautiful thing, but only when it isn't being figuratively raped.

. punctuation is a hegemonic tool undertheorized . using rape as an analogy is symptomatic of a patriarchial world-view that does work to maintain the status quo (the same kind of work reifying "rules" of grammar does)

 ;D
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on August 19, 2008, 06:47:23 PM
Here's a site that covers some word stuff.  :) Most of them are pretty straight forward.

Quote
Teenage vs. teenaged.
Some people object that the word should be “teenaged,” but unlike the still nonstandard “ice tea” and “stain glass,” “teenage” is almost universally accepted now.

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html#errors (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html#errors)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on August 19, 2008, 08:07:08 PM
Even if it made skjerka crushingly unhappy, I'd still rather he didn't 'decorate'. Punctuation is a beautiful thing, but only when it isn't being figuratively raped.

. punctuation is a hegemonic tool undertheorized . using rape as an analogy is symptomatic of a patriarchial world-view that does work to maintain the status quo (the same kind of work reifying "rules" of grammar does)

 ;D

Sickawhat?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 19, 2008, 08:34:41 PM
psmd; dwedj2- fj s swnnd mans diwd. j=2ezqaz ded,ped - di -, nwer ..?/

t0cza
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 19, 2008, 08:39:02 PM
psmd; dwedj2- fj s swnnd mans diwd. j=2ezqaz ded,ped - di -, nwer ..?/

t0cza

But it's more than that...wouldn't you agree?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 19, 2008, 08:40:10 PM
Even if it made skjerka crushingly unhappy, I'd still rather he didn't 'decorate'. Punctuation is a beautiful thing, but only when it isn't being figuratively raped.

. punctuation is a hegemonic tool undertheorized . using rape as an analogy is symptomatic of a patriarchial world-view that does work to maintain the status quo (the same kind of work reifying "rules" of grammar does)

 ;D

I have a great deal of respect for punctuation, especially after reading who knows how many hundreds of student papers over the last 10 years. I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to spend several minutes with a sentence or paragraph trying to figure out what it means simply because it has too much punctuation or because it lacks punctuation that would have made its meaning clear on the first reading. Punctuation primarily offers clarity and meaning. I do love the writers who play with and challenge punctuation (and hey, let's bring back illuminated manuscripts!), but for prose that ought to be clear on a first reading and isn't, I'll go with standard/accepted punctuation rules every time.

Here's a classic example from my daughters' school newsletter that came home this month:

"If you didn't hand these forms in at the registration you may mail them directly to the school, or hand them in to the office starting the week of August 18."

Granted, there's not a lot of confusion in this sentence, but the lack of the comma after the first clause ("at the registration [needs a comma here] you may mail") and the unnecessary comma later on caused me to have to read the sentence over three times 'til I understood it when I should have had to read it, nay, skim it, only once.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: edgar00 on August 19, 2008, 08:42:08 PM
I be likin' grammar.

I mean, I like grammar.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: edgar00 on August 19, 2008, 08:42:45 PM
Are you an English teacher oneaprilday?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 19, 2008, 08:47:12 PM
Are you an English teacher oneaprilday?

I teach English composition (and English lit when I can get it  :) ) part-time at the community college level.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: edgar00 on August 19, 2008, 08:49:33 PM
That's great. I'm always reassured to know that there are people out there who are still knowledgeable about the English language and treat it with respect.

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 19, 2008, 08:53:20 PM
It's amazing how you can be fluent in a langauge (your native language) and not know a darn thing about it.

I was humbled by my TEFL course in Prague when I would get questions from students and not be able to answer them. Simple things like verb tenses...
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: edgar00 on August 19, 2008, 08:54:51 PM
Please, no questions regarding verb tenses! I'll run and hide!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 19, 2008, 08:59:39 PM
Please, no questions regarding verb tenses! I'll run and hide!

Yeah - that's pretty much what I did...

Nothing like a teacher with that deer-caught-in-the-headlights look.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 19, 2008, 09:01:07 PM
It's amazing how you can be fluent in a langauge (your native language) and not know a darn thing about it.

I was humbled by my TEFL course in Prague when I would get questions from students and not be able to answer them. Simple things like verb tenses...

And I will freely admit that I didn't really understand a lot of grammar rules until, post BA in English and post MA in English, I had to teach an intensive grammar class.   :(  (It was a really fun class to teach though!  :) )


Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 19, 2008, 09:02:07 PM
OAD - do you believe in the idea of proper English?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on August 19, 2008, 09:12:51 PM
I had to teach an intensive grammar class.   :(  (It was a really fun class to teach though!  :) )

I'm taking one of these this semester. Expect my posts to be slightly better grammar-wise and about the same content-wise.

Awesome!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 19, 2008, 09:23:26 PM
OAD - do you believe in the idea of proper English?

Hmmm, loaded question.  :)

Generally, I think that "proper English" is, or should be, the English, primarily, that works, that is, the English that is most effective for communication. I think that language rules are born out of that practical principle. Thus, rules can become obsolete when they are no longer practical; language/language rules are, over time, dynamic. (There is probably an aesthetic element to "proper English," too, and I do like that element, but it shouldn't stand alone.) So, I guess it depends on what you mean by proper English, but if we define it as above, then, yes, I do believe in it.

What do you think?

I had to teach an intensive grammar class.   :(  (It was a really fun class to teach though!  :) )

I'm taking one of these this semester. Expect my posts to be slightly better grammar-wise and about the same content-wise.

Awesome!

Sounds fun, Junior! I'd actually like to take one, too - I taught a very basic class and had the feeling I was only scratching the surface.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: winrit on August 19, 2008, 09:24:23 PM
I have a friend who is Polish and he regularly stumps me with grammar questions. He last asked me why we use "is" when when we say "where is everyone" instead of "are"?" I guessed and said everyone is considered to be singular?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 19, 2008, 09:28:08 PM
I have a friend who is Polish and he regularly stumps me with grammar questions. He last asked me why we use "is" when when we say "where is everyone" instead of "are"?" I guessed and said everyone is considered to be singular?

Yep, you were right; it's singular. You can translate it to "every single person" which sounds more singular than "everyone."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 19, 2008, 09:38:27 PM
Quote
What do you think?

Well...

Quote
Generally, I think that "proper English" is, or should be, the English, primarily, that works, that is, the English that is most effective for communication. I think that language rules are born out of that practical principle. Thus, rules can become obsolete when they are no longer practical; language/language rules are, over time, dynamic.

My thoughts exactly. Form ultimately follows function.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on August 20, 2008, 01:21:25 PM
Even if it made skjerka crushingly unhappy, I'd still rather he didn't 'decorate'. Punctuation is a beautiful thing, but only when it isn't being figuratively raped.

. punctuation is a hegemonic tool undertheorized . using rape as an analogy is symptomatic of a patriarchial world-view that does work to maintain the status quo (the same kind of work reifying "rules" of grammar does)

 ;D

Is that your impression of a first year sociology student's (clumsy) essay?   :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on August 21, 2008, 12:56:37 PM
Even if it made skjerka crushingly unhappy, I'd still rather he didn't 'decorate'. Punctuation is a beautiful thing, but only when it isn't being figuratively raped.

. punctuation is a hegemonic tool undertheorized . using rape as an analogy is symptomatic of a patriarchial world-view that does work to maintain the status quo (the same kind of work reifying "rules" of grammar does)

 ;D

Is that your impression of a first year sociology student's (clumsy) essay?   :)

is that the best you can do?  such a clumsy response i can't tell what it is supposed to mean aside from offering a snide insult.  apparently, you feel no need to address the content, unless you actually agree with it ;)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: lise on August 21, 2008, 01:09:12 PM
I have difficulty with ";" and ":" I think I either skipped that week, or they just didn't cover it right. I take much more care in formal writing then writing here on the boards. I love using ellipses here, but it wouldn't fly in a real paper.

So not long ago I was writing a cover letter for a job application, and I sent a copy to my sister to proof read. I finally got a call from her 3 hours later. Apparently there had been some disagreement over an apostrophe that required outside review (aka 6 different friends weighed in). It all was because of a question of "masters degree" or "master's degree" ...
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on August 21, 2008, 01:12:13 PM
i'd go with the latter, what happened?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Think_Long on August 21, 2008, 01:12:30 PM
I have difficulty with ";" and ":" I think I either skipped that week, or they just didn't cover it right. I take much more care in formal writing then writing here on the boards. I love using ellipses here, but it wouldn't fly in a real paper.


the MLA handbook has a pretty extensive section on this issue. it is probably my most common mistake in formal writing, i always either overuse or under-use the semicolon.

i also recently learned that there are three different hyphens, but i haven't a clue what the different names are or different uses. one for conjunctions, one for interjections, and one for something else i suppose
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on August 21, 2008, 01:15:07 PM
if i've got to stick with one, i prefer chicago style, but my discipline uses the worthless APA (freakin' yahoos
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Think_Long on August 21, 2008, 01:16:24 PM
APA, what a crock!

i've never used chicago, but i'm guessing most of the difference between the three forms comes from citation strategies, correct?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on August 21, 2008, 01:17:51 PM
Even if it made skjerka crushingly unhappy, I'd still rather he didn't 'decorate'. Punctuation is a beautiful thing, but only when it isn't being figuratively raped.

. punctuation is a hegemonic tool undertheorized . using rape as an analogy is symptomatic of a patriarchial world-view that does work to maintain the status quo (the same kind of work reifying "rules" of grammar does)

 ;D

Is that your impression of a first year sociology student's (clumsy) essay?   :)

is that the best you can do?  such a clumsy response i can't tell what it is supposed to mean aside from offering a snide insult.  apparently, you feel no need to address the content, unless you actually agree with it ;)



The content, my good fellow, is MEANINGLESS TOSH! That's what it is! I'm not going to even address it. It's like when Americans add 'istic' onto the the end of every adjective to make themselves sound intelligent (ha!). Oh sorry, I mean 'intelligentistic'...


Ooh, almost forgot the anger diffusing smiley!  ;D
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: lise on August 21, 2008, 01:20:55 PM
i'd go with the latter, what happened?

We determined there are arguments for both forms and that they are now used interchangeably. The jury (aka my sisters friends) were evenly split so I went with what I originally had down. It is likely Master's is formally correct as the degree asserts you are a master of your field, however at some point both became acceptable.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on August 21, 2008, 01:23:04 PM
I have a Master's degree. It's Master's. It bloody better be, anyway.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on August 21, 2008, 01:27:58 PM
Even if it made skjerka crushingly unhappy, I'd still rather he didn't 'decorate'. Punctuation is a beautiful thing, but only when it isn't being figuratively raped.

. punctuation is a hegemonic tool undertheorized . using rape as an analogy is symptomatic of a patriarchial world-view that does work to maintain the status quo (the same kind of work reifying "rules" of grammar does)

 ;D

Is that your impression of a first year sociology student's (clumsy) essay?   :)

is that the best you can do?  such a clumsy response i can't tell what it is supposed to mean aside from offering a snide insult.  apparently, you feel no need to address the content, unless you actually agree with it ;)



The content, my good fellow, is MEANINGLESS TOSH! That's what it is! I'm not going to even address it. It's like when Americans add 'istic' onto the the end of every adjective to make themselves sound intelligent (ha!). Oh sorry, I mean 'intelligentistic'...


Ooh, almost forgot the anger diffusing smiley!  ;D

hey!? i didn't use an "istic"!

on the content battle, i'll assume you're joking, since it is pretty obviously true (and you do have a master's) :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on August 21, 2008, 02:02:14 PM
I don't like to be a pedant, but I did say "it's like when Americans add 'istic'[...]".

But as you say, my anger is all in good humour. But there is a message behind it: punctuation matters!*



Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Think_Long on August 21, 2008, 02:04:30 PM
I don't like to be a pedant, but I did say "it's like when Americans add 'istic'[...]".

But as you say, my anger is all in good humour. But there is a message behind it: punctuation matters!*


saying 'pedant' is pretty pedantistic of you
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on August 21, 2008, 02:05:10 PM
This is just gonna go nowheres fast, and soonistic.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 21, 2008, 02:09:45 PM
I think it's all fantast!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on August 21, 2008, 02:16:26 PM
Your all just being alot of jokeristics.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on August 21, 2008, 02:27:10 PM
I don't like to be a pedant, but I did say "it's like when Americans add 'istic'[...]".

But as you say, my anger is all in good humour. But there is a message behind it: punctuation matters!*


hey!  that's my message, too:

punctuation matters! :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 21, 2008, 03:24:48 PM
I have difficulty with ";" and ":" I think I either skipped that week, or they just didn't cover it right.

Not sure if you're asking for input on this, but I'll give you some anyway.  :)

The semi-colon: In the most ordinary use of the semi-colon, think of it as a period. In other words, the two groups of words on either side of the semi-colon each need to be able to stand alone as complete sentences. You use the semi-colon when you want those two sentences to be seen as two very closely linked thoughts rather than as two stand alone sentences.

A semi-colon can also be used to separate items in a list if those items are each fairly complex. Here's an example: The speakers were Dr. Judith Cornwell, English; Dr. Peter Mortrude, biology; Dr. Shirley Enders, history; and Dr. Charles Viceroy, mathematics. In the most basic lists, you just use a comma to separate the items, but here, each item uses a comma already, so more commas would not indicate to the reader each separate item. The semi-colon helps avoid confusion.



The colon: The group of words that follow a colon do not need to be able to stand as a complete sentence (as in the most ordinary use of the semi-colon) although they can.

The colon can indicate a couple of different things:

1) The colon indicates that a list is coming. Eg. These four swimmers participated in the relay: Michael Phelps, Garrett Weber-Gale, Cullen Jones and Jason Lezak.

2) A colon can also indicate that an example or explanation will follow (as in my above sentence, "Here's an example: The speakers were . . . "). I like to think of the colon as a kind of announcement that builds a certain expectation in the reader's mind. (I think this colon use is probably where the confusion between colon and semi-colon comes in?)


Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Think_Long on August 21, 2008, 03:28:56 PM
this is becoming my favorite thread on this board. anyone read today's languagelog post on split infinitives? good stuff
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on August 21, 2008, 03:35:34 PM
also thank you jr & marty - i was begining to think all the fun had gone out of whoring.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on August 21, 2008, 03:39:49 PM
That's what I'm here fore.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on August 21, 2008, 03:40:35 PM
what's a herefore?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on August 21, 2008, 03:41:09 PM
Heretofore, I believed that I was the best person ever. Still do.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 21, 2008, 03:46:54 PM
BTW, lest ya'll think I'm insufferable ass in regards to punctuation, I'm with lise on this:

I take much more care in formal writing then writing here on the boards.

I don't expect impeccable grammar and punctuation from myself or others in such an informal place as these boards are.  :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: lise on August 21, 2008, 05:39:19 PM
though i typed to fast to realize i used then not than
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on August 21, 2008, 05:49:03 PM
this is becoming my favorite thread on this board.

Mine too!

I was reading about hanging modifiers today. Grammar porn!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 21, 2008, 07:51:53 PM
though i typed to fast to realize i used then not than

Ha, didn't even notice it until you pointed it out.  :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 22, 2008, 01:21:59 AM
dramedy

This word must go.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on August 22, 2008, 05:25:20 AM
Com-e-rama?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 22, 2008, 07:55:07 AM
I fell in love with the semi-colon sometime last year.  So much so that I overuse it.  I always have to run a pair of sentences through my head to see if I really should use a semi-colon:  He loved her; she was ambivalent.  If the pair of thoughts I want to put together work with that rhythm, then I'll use it.  Unfortunately, that's how I want a lot of my stuff to be read.  I like the ascending-descending tone it gives to the pair of thoughts.

What happened to my beloved double-space after the end of a sentence?  It seems that the single-space has taken its place as standard.  My blog program actually takes out double-spaces.

I love you, double-space; please don't leave me.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on August 22, 2008, 08:08:43 AM
You see? Punctuation can even be romantic. Thank you, Alex.

My favourite nerd book:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41z5qMUTVLL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 22, 2008, 09:03:22 AM
Wowser - I am going to order that right now...
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Think_Long on August 22, 2008, 09:09:17 AM
I love you, double-space; please don't leave me.

i didn't realize that the double-space was being phased out.  i too am a double-lover; when i was learning to type i used to overcompensate with five or six spaces just because it looked better.

anyone follow the NYU press? they're releasing a new translation series of several of the indian clay sanskrit stories - romanized sanskrit on the left page, translation on the right.  my copy of "the birth of kumara" is on the way!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on August 22, 2008, 09:52:07 AM
Wowser - I am going to order that right now...

Good! It's a cracking read, and also quite funny in places. Good toilet reading, too.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 22, 2008, 09:55:03 AM
Good toilet reading, too.

I love that you say this.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 22, 2008, 01:25:04 PM
I fell in love with the semi-colon sometime last year.  So much so that I overuse it.  I always have to run a pair of sentences through my head to see if I really should use a semi-colon:  He loved her; she was ambivalent.  If the pair of thoughts I want to put together work with that rhythm, then I'll use it.  Unfortunately, that's how I want a lot of my stuff to be read.  I like the ascending-descending tone it gives to the pair of thoughts.

Alex, that was truly lovely. I especially like that last sentence where you describe semi-colons as giving a sentence "an ascending-descending tone."


My favourite nerd book:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41z5qMUTVLL._SS500_.jpg (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41z5qMUTVLL._SS500_.jpg)

That looks great - I'm looking for something to supplement my MLA handbook, which is kind of tedious.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on August 22, 2008, 01:59:49 PM
I fell in love with the semi-colon sometime last year. 

i just couldn't keep reading after this line.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 22, 2008, 02:45:39 PM
I fell in love with the semi-colon sometime last year. 

i just couldn't keep reading after this line.

You obviously haven't properly met the semi-colon.  ;)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: grumm on August 26, 2008, 04:00:18 PM
Oh I want that book! I love grammar, and I'm joining this thread. I'll try to pop in more often.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on August 26, 2008, 04:03:46 PM
Well, if it's grammar your after, I hear this is good, and is on my wishlist:
(http://www.sussex.ac.uk/press_office/bulletin/31aug01/gaffe.jpg)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 26, 2008, 05:52:59 PM
I hear this is good, and is on my wishlist:
[Mind the Gaffe]

I like it already.  :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on August 26, 2008, 06:05:19 PM
 :) There was also a good programme on the radio today about words, grammar, punctuation etc, Word of Mouth, (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/wordofmouth.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/wordofmouth.shtml))
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Think_Long on August 27, 2008, 09:52:12 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/22/sign.vandals.ap/index.html?iref=newssearch (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/22/sign.vandals.ap/index.html?iref=newssearch)

i assume most saw this little entry into the "world's dumbest ways to get arrested" book (which i am compiling in my head).

some people are morons and have entirely too much time on their hands.  my favorite was how this guy complained in an interview about the terrible use of "they" as a neutered pronoun.  of course, he then used "they" in his next sentence in the exact way he said he hated
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 27, 2008, 10:24:18 AM
I'm all for the spirit of their grammar-policing vandalism.  I'm not for people taking themselves seriously when saying things like:

Quote
Still, I think I shall be haunted by that perversity, emense, in my train-whistle-blighted dreams tonight.

I was with him until "train-whistle-blighted dreams."  If the error, "emense," was somehow related to train-whistles, I would congratulate him for being clever.  As it is he's just being obnoxiously poetic, like a theater arts grad student.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on August 27, 2008, 10:36:47 AM
 I think I'd rather have some grammatical mistakes than ugly Tippex marks.

Isn't Matty Ballgame a theatre arts graduate?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 27, 2008, 10:43:12 AM
I think I'd rather have some grammatical mistakes than ugly Tippex marks.

Isn't Matty Ballgame a theatre arts graduate?
Mmmmmmaybe.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on August 27, 2008, 01:54:34 PM
Dear Basil,

Was that inverse synecdoche?  That is, is it actually the cute girl in your group that you're maybe possibly in love with, rather than the group projects themselves?

pixote

It is my impression that there is no possibility of "inverse" synecdoche as it can mean both part to whole or whole to part.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Think_Long on August 27, 2008, 01:58:57 PM
Dear Basil,

Was that inverse synecdoche?  That is, is it actually the cute girl in your group that you're maybe possibly in love with, rather than the group projects themselves?

pixote

It is my impression that there is no possibility of "inverse" synecdoche at it can mean both part to whole or whole to part.

i think you're right keith, it goes both ways
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 28, 2008, 12:31:56 PM
Word.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on October 06, 2008, 09:13:08 PM
I get emailed a MooT game ETYMOLOGY/SEMANTICS/GRAMMAR question each week. Here's this week's question:

"A 1995 study of English writing trends claimed that during the 18th century
its use declined from 68.1 per thousand words to just 17 per thousand words.
What punctuation mark is it?"


Who knows the answer?

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on October 06, 2008, 09:18:08 PM
'?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on October 06, 2008, 10:38:44 PM
Nope.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: edgar00 on October 06, 2008, 10:40:39 PM
semicolon ;
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on October 06, 2008, 10:48:24 PM
! - would have gone down in the victorian age methinks so that's out.

this being the georgian age of romantic poetry i'd assume semicolon use actually went up given its use in stanza form.  how bout the hyphen?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on October 07, 2008, 12:39:09 AM
semicolon ;

edgar's got it. (good guess, I'd think, about the hyphen though, keith)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on October 07, 2008, 10:42:03 AM
semicolon ;

edgar's got it. (good guess, I'd think, about the hyphen though, keith)

who knew they were such fans of the semi-colon in the age of enlightenment?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on October 10, 2008, 06:47:29 AM
who knew they were such fans of the semi-colon in the age of enlightenment?
The semi-colon IS enlightenment.  Namaste.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on November 17, 2008, 03:28:38 PM
meh added to the dictionary (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081117/ap_on_re_eu/eu_britain_new_word)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on November 17, 2008, 04:14:33 PM
Surely an earlier precedent than 2001 can be found!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on November 17, 2008, 05:25:50 PM
I hate 'meh' so freaking much. If you don't care that much you don't have to write it.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on November 17, 2008, 05:49:28 PM
That's just it: it's 'not caring' for try-hards, like messed up 'bed hair'.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on November 17, 2008, 07:41:31 PM
I hate 'meh' so freaking much. If you don't care that much you don't have to write it.

Meh...I care just enough to tell you that I don't care.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on November 17, 2008, 07:42:41 PM
Then use actual words, not grunts.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on November 17, 2008, 07:43:33 PM
uh! meh! duh! bleh! blah! bleech...argh.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ses on November 17, 2008, 07:47:09 PM
What about bleh?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on November 17, 2008, 07:48:52 PM
duly noted wingman.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ses on November 17, 2008, 07:57:35 PM
Always here to help.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on November 17, 2008, 08:01:07 PM
See how much better it is to communicate with actual communication?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on November 17, 2008, 08:04:56 PM
*BURP!*
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on November 17, 2008, 08:18:13 PM
*BURP!*

buh?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on November 17, 2008, 09:07:56 PM
BURN!

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on January 12, 2009, 01:04:32 AM

I think it's telling that skjerva started this whole nonsense, and he refuses to use "watch" or "see" to describe the process of viewing a movie, instead insisting on "experienced" or "done".  There seems to be a very real split between people who judge their matchups as films, and people who judge their matchups as experiences.  Neither approach is wrong, but one can be argued with and one can't.


but films must be experienced - they do not exist as objects unto themselves with any meaning, we instill meaning into them.  why i use 'experience' or 'do' is to resist the easy and reductive "see" or "watch" - movies are also heard, and they can create real emotional response, they can be felt.  imagine many of your favorite films with a completely different sound design, there is a good chance they might no longer be your favorites.  imagine your favorite films edited differently so that emotional and/or intellectual charges are not had, there is a good chance they might no longer be your favorites.

films are always so much more than merely seen and watched

I would agree with you, however the shorthand of seen and watched is not only part of the lingo of our peoples, but a way for everybody to understand what is going on. If you say to somebody not in the know that you "did" Pulp Fiction they might assume that you wrote it or directed it or starred in it. Seen and watched are just taking the physical level of film as a primarily visual medium and using that to indicate the experience. We all know that film is more than just looking, but we also know that when we say "see" we really mean experience.

but we create our worlds by the language we use.  my not falling into the lazy habit of saying or writing that i "saw" or "watched" a movie is part of de-emphasizing the visual.  is it possible that we rely less on visual cues as we live our lives?  of course it is.  but, i believe part of that is discontinuing the reification of vision as ordering our daily lives, this means changing habits of language use, too.  think of how easy it is to come to (mis)understandings of others by quick visual cues.  what if we paused on the visual just long enough to listen or feel?  i'd imagine that might be a good thing.  my language choices are the same kind of pausing

it seems hard to believe that someone wouldn't understand what "i did pulp fiction" means, especially as it is likely only to be uttered in the context of our familiarity with the film, tarantino, or the like.  if uttered out of context, it is likely that the phrase is trying to do something other than convey basic information

but films must be experienced - they do not exist as objects unto themselves with any meaning, we instill meaning into them.  why i use 'experience' or 'do' is to resist the easy and reductive "see" or "watch" - movies are also heard, and they can create real emotional response, they can be felt.  imagine many of your favorite films with a completely different sound design, there is a good chance they might no longer be your favorites.  imagine your favorite films edited differently so that emotional and/or intellectual charges are not had, there is a good chance they might no longer be your favorites.

films are always so much more than merely seen and watched

I know why you do it.  I just find it incredibly grating, grammatically.

maybe you will mellow someday, and/or others will take it up and you will realize how antiquated you have become :)

While I've read and understand why you use "do" or "did" or "done" rather than "see" or "saw," skjerva, "did" actually does grate on me as well, though perhaps for different reasons than sdedalus gives - my complaint is something closer to what Junior is saying. I'm fine with your saying you've "experienced" or "experience" a film - that makes sense to me linguistically because, certainly as everyone agrees, a film is more than the sum of its visual parts and I do appreciate your playing with language, your challenging yourself to say what you mean, to keep language fresh.

What bothers me, particularly, about saying "I did [a film]," is that "did" implies/means completion, it implies that you don't need to see/experience a film again, it's "done." And I know you don't mean that. Anyone who loves films watches and re-watches the same ones and can see and feel different things every time - we often say around here, "I need to re-visit that film - it's been a while since I've seen it" because we acknowledge that life experiences or more film knowledge or age or a community or whatever can change a film for us. Thus, when you say "I've done a film," you seem to be saying you're finished with it - but again, I know you can't mean that, so the "done" just feels a bit like sloppy use of language. You know? To go back to the phrase "revisit a film," I do love that and what the word "revisit" implies. A visit is often associated with a person (or a place), and the implication is that you don't exhaust the depths of a person in the time you're with that person - you engage in conversation, you discover, you enjoy (or maybe you don't enjoy) - in any case, I like to think of a film - a good film - as a kind of being, a being that isn't exhausted with the one visit, but it's a kind of living thing you return to again and again and you see or feel or hear something new each time. I wouldn't like to say I've "done" Barcelona just because I was there for a couple of weeks - I've seen and experienced parts of it, but I've certainly not "done" it - saying so would smack of an appalling kind of arrogance, don't you think? I don't think of you as being arrogant when you say you've "done" a film but only because I feel you can't really mean "done." Does that make sense at all?

One other side note about "do" and "done" - I also have negative associations with the word as a woman. I can't get away from the word as it's associated with the sort of crass and humiliating and degrading way some men discuss women, that is, in reference to a sexual experience they've had or want to have with a particular woman. And again, I know you don't mean "do" or "done" in that way when you speak of a film, but the use of it grates on me because of the associations I have with the word. I agree with you - language changes and language changes experience - and maybe your using "do" or "done" can change my associations with the word - but at the moment it still has a negative weight that grates on me.

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on January 12, 2009, 01:24:45 AM
That is an excellent and well thought out post, oad. And not just because I agree with it! Though I'm sure that helps. Perhaps my usage of an exclamation point instead of a comma is also annoying! Though I keep on doing it.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on January 12, 2009, 06:51:59 AM
I done seed a movie once.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on January 12, 2009, 09:02:56 AM
You been to them picture shows?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: edgar00 on January 12, 2009, 09:13:08 AM
I'm done with the cooking now.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on January 12, 2009, 10:00:32 AM
You been to them picture shows?
And I done seed one o'them television boxes in the Walmarts.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on January 12, 2009, 10:46:48 AM

I think it's telling that skjerva started this whole nonsense, and he refuses to use "watch" or "see" to describe the process of viewing a movie, instead insisting on "experienced" or "done".  There seems to be a very real split between people who judge their matchups as films, and people who judge their matchups as experiences.  Neither approach is wrong, but one can be argued with and one can't.


but films must be experienced - they do not exist as objects unto themselves with any meaning, we instill meaning into them.  why i use 'experience' or 'do' is to resist the easy and reductive "see" or "watch" - movies are also heard, and they can create real emotional response, they can be felt.  imagine many of your favorite films with a completely different sound design, there is a good chance they might no longer be your favorites.  imagine your favorite films edited differently so that emotional and/or intellectual charges are not had, there is a good chance they might no longer be your favorites.

films are always so much more than merely seen and watched

I would agree with you, however the shorthand of seen and watched is not only part of the lingo of our peoples, but a way for everybody to understand what is going on. If you say to somebody not in the know that you "did" Pulp Fiction they might assume that you wrote it or directed it or starred in it. Seen and watched are just taking the physical level of film as a primarily visual medium and using that to indicate the experience. We all know that film is more than just looking, but we also know that when we say "see" we really mean experience.

but we create our worlds by the language we use.  my not falling into the lazy habit of saying or writing that i "saw" or "watched" a movie is part of de-emphasizing the visual.  is it possible that we rely less on visual cues as we live our lives?  of course it is.  but, i believe part of that is discontinuing the reification of vision as ordering our daily lives, this means changing habits of language use, too.  think of how easy it is to come to (mis)understandings of others by quick visual cues.  what if we paused on the visual just long enough to listen or feel?  i'd imagine that might be a good thing.  my language choices are the same kind of pausing

it seems hard to believe that someone wouldn't understand what "i did pulp fiction" means, especially as it is likely only to be uttered in the context of our familiarity with the film, tarantino, or the like.  if uttered out of context, it is likely that the phrase is trying to do something other than convey basic information

but films must be experienced - they do not exist as objects unto themselves with any meaning, we instill meaning into them.  why i use 'experience' or 'do' is to resist the easy and reductive "see" or "watch" - movies are also heard, and they can create real emotional response, they can be felt.  imagine many of your favorite films with a completely different sound design, there is a good chance they might no longer be your favorites.  imagine your favorite films edited differently so that emotional and/or intellectual charges are not had, there is a good chance they might no longer be your favorites.

films are always so much more than merely seen and watched

I know why you do it.  I just find it incredibly grating, grammatically.

maybe you will mellow someday, and/or others will take it up and you will realize how antiquated you have become :)

While I've read and understand why you use "do" or "did" or "done" rather than "see" or "saw," skjerva, "did" actually does grate on me as well, though perhaps for different reasons than sdedalus gives - my complaint is something closer to what Junior is saying. I'm fine with your saying you've "experienced" or "experience" a film - that makes sense to me linguistically because, certainly as everyone agrees, a film is more than the sum of its visual parts and I do appreciate your playing with language, your challenging yourself to say what you mean, to keep language fresh.

What bothers me, particularly, about saying "I did [a film]," is that "did" implies/means completion, it implies that you don't need to see/experience a film again, it's "done." And I know you don't mean that. Anyone who loves films watches and re-watches the same ones and can see and feel different things every time - we often say around here, "I need to re-visit that film - it's been a while since I've seen it" because we acknowledge that life experiences or more film knowledge or age or a community or whatever can change a film for us. Thus, when you say "I've done a film," you seem to be saying you're finished with it - but again, I know you can't mean that, so the "done" just feels a bit like sloppy use of language. You know? To go back to the phrase "revisit a film," I do love that and what the word "revisit" implies. A visit is often associated with a person (or a place), and the implication is that you don't exhaust the depths of a person in the time you're with that person - you engage in conversation, you discover, you enjoy (or maybe you don't enjoy) - in any case, I like to think of a film - a good film - as a kind of being, a being that isn't exhausted with the one visit, but it's a kind of living thing you return to again and again and you see or feel or hear something new each time. I wouldn't like to say I've "done" Barcelona just because I was there for a couple of weeks - I've seen and experienced parts of it, but I've certainly not "done" it - saying so would smack of an appalling kind of arrogance, don't you think? I don't think of you as being arrogant when you say you've "done" a film but only because I feel you can't really mean "done." Does that make sense at all?

One other side note about "do" and "done" - I also have negative associations with the word as a woman. I can't get away from the word as it's associated with the sort of crass and humiliating and degrading way some men discuss women, that is, in reference to a sexual experience they've had or want to have with a particular woman. And again, I know you don't mean "do" or "done" in that way when you speak of a film, but the use of it grates on me because of the associations I have with the word. I agree with you - language changes and language changes experience - and maybe your using "do" or "done" can change my associations with the word - but at the moment it still has a negative weight that grates on me.



excellent points all.  while to say "i did" or "am going to do" a film does not imply the same kind of finality as having "done" one, the association with the objectification of women certainly marks them - i'm through with do, back to experiencing :)

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on January 12, 2009, 05:36:38 PM
excellent points all.  while to say "i did" or "am going to do" a film does not imply the same kind of finality as having "done" one, the association with the objectification of women certainly marks them - i'm through with do, back to experiencing :)

I'm cool with "experiencing."  :)


That is an excellent and well thought out post, oad. And not just because I agree with it! Though I'm sure that helps. Perhaps my usage of an exclamation point instead of a comma is also annoying! Though I keep on doing it.

Exclama!tion points!! are fu!n!  :)


Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: worm@work on February 02, 2009, 01:27:49 PM
I've always been under the impression that biennially means once every other year and that biannually (like semiannually) means twice in one year. Now, someone just showed me that as per dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=biannually), biannual could mean either of these!
It cites The Random House Dictionary and The American Heritage Dictionary as sources. Have I been wrong all along :(?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 02, 2009, 01:45:43 PM
I've always been under the impression that biennially means once every other year and that biannually (like semiannually) means twice in one year. Now, someone just showed me that as per dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=biannually), biannual could mean either of these!
It cites The Random House Dictionary and The American Heritage Dictionary as sources. Have I been wrong all along :(?

My Compact OED says that biennially means once every two years (as you thought) and biannually means half-yearly (or twice a year - again, as you thought). Those are the only definitions offered.

My dictionary is a 1985 printing, so I wonder if with the dynamic nature of language, biannual as evolved to mean more than its original meaning?

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: jbissell on February 02, 2009, 01:50:55 PM
Either way, Bicentennial Man is awful.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on February 02, 2009, 02:14:44 PM
Either way, Bicentennial Man is awful.

Whoa - you actually watched it?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on February 02, 2009, 02:24:14 PM
I've always been under the impression that biennially means once every other year and that biannually (like semiannually) means twice in one year. Now, someone just showed me that as per dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=biannually), biannual could mean either of these!
It cites The Random House Dictionary and The American Heritage Dictionary as sources. Have I been wrong all along :(?

My Compact OED says that biennially means once every two years (as you thought) and biannually means half-yearly (or twice a year - again, as you thought). Those are the only definitions offered.

My dictionary is a 1985 printing, so I wonder if with the dynamic nature of language, biannual as evolved to mean more than its original meaning?


I always thought that biannual meant "every two years" and semi-annual meant "every six months." And biennially was just a dumb word that no one should use.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: jbissell on February 02, 2009, 02:27:29 PM
Either way, Bicentennial Man is awful.

Whoa - you actually watched it?

I've seen like 30 min. of it, more than enough to judge its merit.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on February 03, 2009, 12:29:33 PM
I just looked up both presume and assume. The dictionary definition seem interchangeable. Can someone explain to me the finer distinctions? Are there connotations with the two words that I'm overlooking?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on February 03, 2009, 01:18:13 PM
Am I to assume that you presume these two words are not interchangeable?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on February 03, 2009, 01:32:35 PM
Am I to assume that you presume these two words are not interchangeable?
I have to assume that. I like both words, so I would like to use both words. I'm not writing poems, so I don't care enough about the sounds the two words make. Or I like the sounds they make equally.

So, that just leaves the definitions and connotations if I'm choosing betwen the two. If I'm allowed to choose a word willy-nilly in a given situation... well, that's just chaos.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on February 03, 2009, 01:33:26 PM
THIS IS A TEACHABLE MOMENT!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on February 03, 2009, 02:02:18 PM
Presume has a snottier air about it, to me. Everybody assumes, only jerks and stuck up people presume.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on February 03, 2009, 02:04:58 PM
I like the consideration of the noun forms here (http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000304.htm).

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on February 03, 2009, 06:08:24 PM
I think 'presume' is more like an educated guess - that you are taking something to be the case given that it's probably/likely. With assume I think it's more like dumbly barging in thinking you know something to be the case without any thought/proof regarding it.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: thatguy_sam on February 03, 2009, 09:37:19 PM
I think 'presume' is more like an educated guess - that you are taking something to be the case given that it's probably/likely. With assume I think it's more like dumbly barging in thinking you know something to be the case without any thought/proof regarding it.

is that whats being discussed in here?
i have to say, thats a pretty good interpritation of the two terms PW
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on February 04, 2009, 01:22:08 AM
(http://i40.tinypic.com/25oxkkp.png)

It never occurred before to me that there was already an official forum stance on applying plural pronouns to singular nouns for the purposes of gender neutrality.

I still prefer yo's.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on February 04, 2009, 11:27:46 AM
actually, their is both plural and singular
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on February 04, 2009, 01:27:19 PM
actually, their is both plural and singular

Since when?

(Not a rhetorical question.)

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on February 04, 2009, 01:37:14 PM


Thanks, Sam :)

Re. 'their': I think it's becoming acceptable - The Guardian has taken to using it that way.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on February 04, 2009, 01:43:52 PM
Thanks, Sam :)

Re. 'their': I think it's becoming acceptable - The Guardian has taken to using it that way.

so is they as singular also acceptable?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Emiliana on February 04, 2009, 03:23:15 PM
For what it's worth: in THE grammar course at the English department of Munich University, I was taught that "they/their" is the way to go if you need to be non-specific about gender in the singular. As an example, we were given the following phrase: "If there's a doctor on board, would they please come forward".
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on February 04, 2009, 05:45:02 PM
For what it's worth: in THE grammar course at the English department of Munich University, I was taught that "they/their" is the way to go if you need to be non-specific about gender in the singular. As an example, we were given the following phrase: "If there's a doctor on board, would they please come forward".

Even though hearing that phrasing makes blood run from my ears, it is the best alternative to saying "he or she" which has passed out of usage in all publications etc.  The only other true alternative to using a plural non-gender specific pronoun when a singular non-gender specific pronoun is needed is to make up a new word (for the singular non-gender specific pronoun).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on February 04, 2009, 07:02:08 PM
actually, their is both plural and singular

Since when?

(Not a rhetorical question.)

pixote

according to EOD, since:

13.. Cursor M. 389 (Cott.) Bath ware made sun and mon, Ai{th}er wit {th}er ouen light. c1420 Sir Amadace (Camden) l, Iche mon in thayre degre. 14.. Arth. & Merl. 2440 (Kölbing) Many a Sarazen lost their liffe. 1533 [see THEMSELVES 5]. 1545 ABP. PARKER Let. to Bp. Gardiner 8 May, Thus was it agreed among us that every president should assemble their companies. 1563 WIN{ygh}ET Four Scoir Thre Quest. liv, A man or woman being lang absent fra thair party. 1641 [see A. {alpha}]. 1643 TRAPP Comm. Gen. xxiv. 22 Each Countrey hath their fashions, and garnishes. 1749 FIELDING Tom Jones VII. xiv, Every one in the House were in their Beds. 1771 GOLDSM. Hist. Eng. III. 241 Every person..now recovered their liberty. a1845 SYD. SMITH Wks. (1850) 175 Every human being must do something with their existence. 1848 THACKERAY Van. Fair xli, A person can't help their birth. 1858 BAGEHOT Lit. Studies (1879) II. 206 Nobody in their senses would describe Gray's ‘Elegy’ as [etc.]. 1898 G. B. SHAW Plays II. Candida 86 It's enough to drive anyone out of their senses.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on February 04, 2009, 07:14:20 PM
The OED seems slightly confused on this point:

Quote from: some web page (http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/sgtheirl.html#everybody)
Everybody

Sometimes incorrectly1 with pl. vb. or pron.

  • 1530 LD. BERNERS Arch. Lyt. Brit. 285 Everye bodye was in theyre lodgynges.
  • 1580 SIDNEY Arcadia II. (1613) 156 Now this king did keepe a great house, that euerie body might come and take their meat freely.
  • 1620 Horæ Subsec. 477 To take vpon him the disciplining of euery body for their errours.
  • 1759 BP. WHARBURTON Lett. (1809) 280 Everybody I meet with are full ready to go of themselves.
  • 1820 BYRON Wks. (1840) IV. 298 Every body does and says what they please.
  • 1866 RUSKIN Eth. Dust v. (1883) 82 Everybody seems to recover their spirits.

1 This minor lapse into prescriptivism in the OED entry for everybody seems to contradict what is said on the preceding page of the dictionary (in the entry for everyone (http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/sgtheirl.html#everyone))! The explanation for this apparent discrepancy is that the entry for everybody lumps together two separate phenomena, that of everybody as the immediate subject of a plural verb (e.g. "I think that everybody love John."), and that of everybody indirectly connected with a plural pronoun that refers back to it (e.g. "Everybody loves their own mother."). These two constructions are quite different, and the first is much more marginal (or "incorrect" (http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/sgtheirl.html#everybody)) than the second.

I dunno.

What does "cott." stand for, incidentally?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on February 04, 2009, 07:18:07 PM
"confused" perhaps because:
Quote
  3. Often used in relation to a singular n. or pronoun denoting a person, after each, every, either, neither, no one, every one, etc. Also so used instead of ‘his or her’, when the gender is inclusive or uncertain. Cf. THEY pron. 2, THEM pron. 2; NOBODY 1b, SOMEBODY. (Not favoured by grammarians.)

but i'm not sure that changes the singular and plural nature/uses of the words  ;D
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on February 04, 2009, 07:22:53 PM
Haha, they spelled favored wrong.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on February 04, 2009, 07:24:46 PM
stupid english
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FroHam X on February 05, 2009, 12:20:05 AM
stupid english

Favoured ftw!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on February 05, 2009, 10:53:33 AM
Thanks, Sam :)

Re. 'their': I think it's becoming acceptable - The Guardian has taken to using it that way.

so is they as singular also acceptable?

Unofficially, perhap. But, basically, yes.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: edgar00 on February 05, 2009, 07:42:41 PM
stupid english

The language or the people of England?

Either way, shut yo mouth!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: skjerva on February 05, 2009, 08:00:26 PM
stupid english

The language or the people of England?

Either way, shut yo mouth!

yeah, i thought i was being clever that way.

what happened to this whoring plan, mate?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FroHam X on February 05, 2009, 09:24:53 PM
stupid english

The language or the people of England?

Either way, shut yo mouth!

yeah, i thought i was being clever that way.

what happened to this whoring plan, mate?

5,000!!!!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on February 06, 2009, 02:49:11 AM
cheers
matt,

Your punctuation here really made me smile.  :)  It also made me think, "Poor, matt, he could really use a weekend away from homework, but alas... (http://www.filmspotting.net/boards/index.php?topic=4699.msg215069#msg215069)"

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on February 06, 2009, 02:58:27 AM
cheers
matt,

Your punctuation here really made me smile. 


I often use that punctuation to sign off emails. I don't know why. It's like my think, you know like how k.d. lang uses all lowercase? I'm cool like that.

It also made me think, "Poor, matt, he could really use a weekend away from homework, but alas... (http://www.filmspotting.net/boards/index.php?topic=4699.msg215069#msg215069)"

Indeed I do need a weekend away from the homework. I've come to realize that grad school is a lot harder than that BA nonsense. Who knew? 

Lately I've been thinking that I should drop out and go back to the video store, but then I say to myself "No Matt, these urbans need planning".  ;)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on February 06, 2009, 03:13:05 AM
I often use that punctuation to sign off emails. I don't know why. It's like my think, you know like how k.d. lang uses all lowercase? I'm cool like that.

Nice.  I like my version, too, where your brain was just on a five-second delay, like, damn, I know a comma goes here somewhere... wait for it... wait for it.... now!  Nailed it!

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on February 06, 2009, 03:18:07 AM
I know a comma goes here somewhere... wait for it... wait for it.... now!  Nailed it!

 :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Thor on February 06, 2009, 01:35:52 PM
Addictive vs Addicting.

It's the same thing, right? Where did this 'addicting' business start? Where will it end?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on February 06, 2009, 02:02:10 PM
Addictive vs Addicting.

It's the same thing, right? Where did this 'addicting' business start? Where will it end?
Shooting from the hip: I would say the difference is in tense.

Addictive seems like it is an adjective as a blanket statement. It's a big, overall, general description. - "That drug is addictive, and I'm lazy."

Addicting makes it feel like it's happening. RIGHT. NOW. - "THAT DRUG IS ADDICTING. AND IT'S RUNNING AWAY WITH MY DAUGHTER! HELP! SOMEONE STOP THAT ADDICTING DRUG!"
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Thor on February 06, 2009, 02:30:58 PM
Well, I found this: http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/addictive-versus-addicting.aspx (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/addictive-versus-addicting.aspx)

But addicting still sounds annoying to me.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on February 06, 2009, 02:45:18 PM
I haven't read that link yet, but I picture two people eating raw cookie dough out of a giant bowl.  If one says, "This is addicting!" that creates a stronger sense that they themselves (double plural pronouns with singular antecedent for the loss!) are getting addicted to the delicious, delicious goodness in the bowl.  But if one of them says instead, "This is addictive," there's more distance between that statement of fact and their own current action, so it's less clear if they themselves (really? they themselves?) are getting in the process of addicted to the delicious, delicious goodness in the bowl.  "Addictive" in that scenario might be better suited for a statement such as, "They say this is addictive, but I could stop right now."  Even if that's a lie.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Thor on February 06, 2009, 03:05:16 PM
I haven't read that link yet, but I picture two people eating raw cookie dough out of a giant bowl.  If one says, "This is addicting!" that creates a stronger sense that they themselves (double plural pronouns with singular antecedent for the loss!) are getting addicted to the delicious, delicious goodness in the bowl.  But if one of them says instead, "This is addictive," there's more distance between that statement of fact and their own current action, so it's less clear if they themselves (really? they themselves?) are getting in the process of addicted to the delicious, delicious goodness in the bowl.  "Addictive" in that scenario might be better suited for a statement such as, "They say this is addictive, but I could stop right now."  Even if that's a lie.

pixote

hungry, pix?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on February 06, 2009, 03:08:19 PM
I would call these forums addictive because I became addicted to them long ago.  But, for a newcomer here, it'd probably be more apt for them to call the forums addicting.

(Very hungry, yes.)

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: roujin on February 06, 2009, 03:10:39 PM
Words.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on February 06, 2009, 03:12:34 PM
and Grammar.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: roujin on February 06, 2009, 03:15:47 PM
and Stuff.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Thor on February 06, 2009, 03:17:03 PM
a dic ting
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: edgar00 on February 07, 2009, 07:44:44 AM
a dic ting

Get your priorities sorted out.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on February 07, 2009, 10:01:11 AM
I've only ever seen the word 'addicting' on Internet message boards.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on February 07, 2009, 04:20:37 PM
I've only ever seen the word 'addicting' on Internet message boards.
I only hear the word addicting when I overhear scare-em-straight newscasts.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on February 09, 2009, 04:34:23 PM
Is there such thing as disobeisance?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on February 18, 2009, 04:59:17 AM
If it's bejeweled as adorned with jewels, then why is it beheaded as lacking a head?


I only posting this to see if wowser replies...
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on February 18, 2009, 05:55:55 PM
Hmm. But bejeweled is an adjective; beheaded is a past tense verb. Apples and pears.

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on February 18, 2009, 07:34:15 PM
Hmm. But bejeweled is an adjective; beheaded is a past tense verb. Apples and pears.



I think I was drunk-typing, but anyway Hi wowser!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on February 18, 2009, 10:53:04 PM
I think I was drunk-typing,

 :D
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on February 20, 2009, 01:13:27 PM
Hmm. But bejeweled is an adjective; beheaded is a past tense verb. Apples and pears.



I think I was drunk-typing, but anyway Hi wowser!

Heh. I think it's a fair enough question, especially so given you were trollied. Also, be, in the sense of 'beheaded' is old English for 'off'.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on March 01, 2009, 01:59:38 PM
Which is right:

Quote
How Chickens Interpret Their Dreams

Quote
How Chicken Interpret Their Dreams

?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on March 01, 2009, 05:35:30 PM
The first one, I think.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: worm@work on March 01, 2009, 05:37:53 PM
Yep, I agree. I believe chickens is the plural form unless you're referring to chicken as food.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on March 01, 2009, 11:15:11 PM
So Chicken Run was grammatically incorrect?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on March 01, 2009, 11:37:02 PM
Not if Chicken is an adjective
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on March 02, 2009, 12:08:18 AM
true...
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on March 07, 2009, 09:47:06 AM
It's exactly the same as saying 'cow shed'. Chickens is the plural. 'Chickens run' would just be weird, unless you were making a statement about the speed the clucking things travel.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on March 17, 2009, 11:32:19 AM
For whatever reason, I can't wrap my head around the correct spelling of griping (http://www.filmspotting.net/boards/index.php?topic=2630.msg234947#msg234947). I read it like that - the correct spelling - and my mind goes, "Gripping? That makes no sense. Why would someone be gripping about their life?"
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Thor on April 10, 2009, 04:06:56 PM
What's a word for when you want to make audible someone's ideas... you know, the way we use the word "visualize" for things we can see. You can "envisage" something, but you don't "enauralise" it...

Lousy oculocentric language.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on April 10, 2009, 04:16:02 PM
Hmmm, good Q. I suppose 'verbalize' isn't quite what you're going for?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Thor on April 10, 2009, 04:35:05 PM
Hmmm, good Q. I suppose 'verbalize' isn't quite what you're going for?

No... this is specifically to do with a composer translating thoughts into sounds... via the process of "auralisation"! Except, you know, using a word that doesn't scan so awfully.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: edgar00 on April 10, 2009, 04:44:23 PM
I don't know the answer to your query, but I'm making 'oculocentric' my word of the day.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on April 10, 2009, 05:49:27 PM
The Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum has a two-page thread (http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/70333/t/What-s-the-musical-equivalent-of-visualize.html?page=1) on the subject ... with no answer.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: roujin on April 11, 2009, 03:49:39 PM
Let's turn turn this into the "help roujin with his linguistics class variety hour." Basically, I just need feedback from a couple of people. How would you change these words to the past tense?

   1. text (meaning “to send a written message to a cell phone”)
   2. drag (meaning “to haul”)
   3. google (meaning “to search the internet with Google")
   4. Enron (meaning “to conduct shady business/go bankrupt”)
   5. dive (meaning “plunge”)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: worm@work on April 11, 2009, 03:57:45 PM
Let's turn turn this into the "help roujin with his linguistics class variety hour." Basically, I just need feedback from a couple of people. How would you change these words to the past tense?

   1. text (meaning “to send a written message to a cell phone”)
   2. drag (meaning “to haul”)
   3. google (meaning “to search the internet with Google")
   4. Enron (meaning “to conduct shady business/go bankrupt”)
   5. dive (meaning “plunge”)


1. texted
2. dragged
3. googled
4. N/A.
5. dove
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on April 11, 2009, 06:39:23 PM
5. (I'd have to say) dived
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FLYmeatwad on April 11, 2009, 06:48:23 PM
Let's turn turn this into the "help roujin with his linguistics class variety hour." Basically, I just need feedback from a couple of people. How would you change these words to the past tense?

   1. text (meaning “to send a written message to a cell phone”)
   2. drag (meaning “to haul”)
   3. google (meaning “to search the internet with Google")
   4. Enron (meaning “to conduct shady business/go bankrupt”)
   5. dive (meaning “plunge”)


1. textan (Go Texans!)
2. drugged (Sounds like my Saturday nights!)
3. googled (seriously this time)
4. Enran (Atlas Shrugged!)
5. diven
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: thatguy_sam on April 13, 2009, 01:27:47 AM
1. Texed
2. dragged
3. googled
4. Enran
5. dove
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on April 18, 2009, 05:06:09 PM
Saltine is right: it's 'dived'. A dove is a bird.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on April 19, 2009, 02:22:57 AM
they both acceptable - though Id say dove is more often used.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Tequila on April 19, 2009, 07:36:17 AM
dived+dove in American English.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Annarchy on April 19, 2009, 01:13:05 PM
1. texted
2. dragged i.e
3. Googled
4. Enronned (because if Google can do it, so can Enron)
5. dove
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on April 27, 2009, 11:35:28 AM
Quote from: GM CEO Fritz Henderson
"We would be substantially less levered as a company"

should this not be leveraged?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: worm@work on April 27, 2009, 11:40:42 AM
Quote from: GM CEO Fritz Henderson
"We would be substantially less levered as a company"

should this not be leveraged?

I've seen both terms being used. At least in academic publications.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Thor on April 27, 2009, 11:43:54 AM
Quote from: GM CEO Fritz Henderson
"We would be substantially less levered as a company"

should this not be leveraged?

Not if he's talking about using less levers.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on April 27, 2009, 11:49:20 AM
Quote from: GM CEO Fritz Henderson
"We would be substantially less levered as a company"

should this not be leveraged?

Not if he's talking about using less levers.

huh, well factories do use levers so there may be some truth to that.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FifthCityMuse on May 08, 2009, 02:33:00 AM
Dialogue has a u and an e. As does monologue. Filmspotters should remember this.

Please.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on May 08, 2009, 02:51:22 AM
The dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dialog) would indicate that they may be considered unnecessary.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Thor on May 08, 2009, 08:21:59 AM
It's so people in the sticks don't think the words are pronounced "monologoo" and "dialogoo"
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on May 08, 2009, 09:50:12 AM
I like shoppe (pronounced show-pee) myself.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on May 08, 2009, 10:35:36 AM
Dictionaries, keith? Oh yeah, because THEY'RE always right, aren't they...  >:(
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on May 08, 2009, 11:14:55 AM
hehe, info on the internet is never wrong wowser.  didn't you know that?  I can cite a wiki article that says so if need be.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on May 08, 2009, 11:16:53 AM
As long as travelog is still cool.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Annarchy on May 08, 2009, 11:26:00 AM
As long as travelog is still cool.

pixote

Travelog/ue depends on the thing itself. If it's a travel-related blog or journal, then it's a travelog. If it's a work of literature/film/radio/whatever describing a journey, then it's travelogue, which is also the case if it's a Joni Mitchell album.

XD
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on May 08, 2009, 11:26:42 AM
Nice!

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on May 08, 2009, 05:31:26 PM
hehe, info on the internet is never wrong wowser.  didn't you know that?  I can cite a wiki article that says so if need be.

That's more like it. Man has trusted Wikipedia since the 13th century. No reason to start using new fangled 'dictionaries' now*.


*I'm pretty sure this is right. It's what Wikipedia says, anyhoo.



(And smiles to Annarchy for giving a shout out for a late-period Joni Mitchell album!)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on May 08, 2009, 10:59:40 PM
Yes, Word spell-check, "nuanced" is a word! Stop it with the red squigglies.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on May 27, 2009, 10:06:49 PM
I've ___ over a bunny before.

Is it run or ran? Run sounds right to me, but I'm told it isn't.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: edgar00 on May 27, 2009, 10:16:58 PM
Ran sounds right to me. I'm sure I've seen 'ran' used in sentences like that before (minus perhaps the bunny part).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FifthCityMuse on May 27, 2009, 10:32:23 PM
I've ___ over a bunny before.

Is it run or ran? Run sounds right to me, but I'm told it isn't.
I would say, "I have run over a bunny before" or "I ran over a bunny before", personally.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ferris on May 27, 2009, 10:44:17 PM
the difficulty is the conflict between common usage and proper English.

"Run over" in this context acts as it if is a one word predicate "runover", as a opposed to its true sentence structure of predicate and preposition.

So it's not equivalent to compare this with:

"I have walked over that bridge 6 times today." which is the common present perfect tense

The distinction is whether the past event is one-time or continuous.

While I can't find a dead-on grammar site to back me up on this, I find your usage ubiquitously.

"I have run over a bunny" is the right choice :)

But the best way is to say "I ran over a bunny" because you are speaking about a one time event that happend in the past.  I'm guessing your context is wanting you to emphasize "I have!!" like raising your hand in class or something?






Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on May 28, 2009, 07:12:32 AM
that's right ferris, about the emphasis. And thanks all for chiming in. :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Melvil on June 02, 2009, 12:14:58 AM
Was anybody else taught to spell Dilemma with an N, Dilemna?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on June 02, 2009, 12:21:47 AM
No, that's crazy.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on June 05, 2009, 12:19:48 PM
 Bad Writing (http://papercuts.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/03/bad-writing-good-movie/), a new documentary
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 07, 2009, 12:45:50 PM
Just looked up pithy. It is not how it sounds. It sounds like it should be on the cute side of brief, not the heavy side.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on August 07, 2009, 01:56:41 PM
"of, like, or abounding in pith"

that made me giggle
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 07, 2009, 02:36:38 PM
Just realized that I've only heard pithy in a sarcastic tone. So that's where some of my confusion came from. Frigging sarcasm.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 07, 2009, 05:20:33 PM
I was surprised to learn that peruse means to read through with thoroughness or care.  Seems like people are more apt to use it to mean to skim.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: NedMeier on August 07, 2009, 06:14:03 PM
Don't know if this one has been brought up but how does everyone say Reese's, like in Reese's Pieces. It drives me insane when people change pieces to piecees and say ree-cees pee cees  >:(
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on August 07, 2009, 06:15:51 PM
I was surprised to learn that peruse means to read through with thoroughness or care.  Seems like people are more apt to use it to mean to skim.

pixote
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ogyWXNsKt3I/Rww_Jt20i2I/AAAAAAAAAYI/nXnpt88i8GM/s400/Neo_Whoa.jpg)
srsly!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 07, 2009, 07:51:36 PM
Ditto.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 07, 2009, 09:28:26 PM
Huh.  :-\  I've always thought peruse meant to sort of unhurriedly skim something. Wonder if the classic definition will be shifting soon . . .


From the Free Dictionary online:
1. to read or examine with care
2. to browse or read in a leisurely way

Usage Note: Peruse has long meant "to read thoroughly" and is often used loosely when one could use the word read instead, as in The librarians checked to see which titles had been perused in the last month and which been left untouched. Seventy percent of the Usage Panel rejected this example in our 1999 survey. Sometimes people use it to mean "to glance over, skim," as in I only had a moment to peruse the manual quickly, but this usage is widely considered an error. In a 1988 survey, 66 percent of the Panel found it unacceptable, and in 1999, 58 percent still rejected it.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on August 07, 2009, 09:51:30 PM
Grammar Girl should do an episode about this.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on August 08, 2009, 12:41:37 AM
Huh.  :-\  I've always thought peruse meant to sort of unhurriedly skim something. Wonder if the classic definition will be shifting soon . . .


From the Free Dictionary online:
1. to read or examine with care
2. to browse or read in a leisurely way

Usage Note: Peruse has long meant "to read thoroughly" and is often used loosely when one could use the word read instead, as in The librarians checked to see which titles had been perused in the last month and which been left untouched. Seventy percent of the Usage Panel rejected this example in our 1999 survey. Sometimes people use it to mean "to glance over, skim," as in I only had a moment to peruse the manual quickly, but this usage is widely considered an error. In a 1988 survey, 66 percent of the Panel found it unacceptable, and in 1999, 58 percent still rejected it.


that seems like too much rejection... I guess their better on the verbal though.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 14, 2009, 04:14:00 PM
Here's how I learned it in school:

The apostrophe goes after the s if it's plural-possessive. Eg. The girls' cupcakes.

You add an apostrophe and an s if it's the possessive of a proper noun that ends in s. Eg. Douglas's cupcakes

The Advocate's style guide says add the apostrophe in both cases. Eg. Douglas' cupcakes

How did you learn it?

Further, does it hurt your head when you come across a company name that ends in s but is not possessive? Eg. Starbucks
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on August 14, 2009, 04:19:45 PM
I noticed that shift over my life as well - everyone ads ' with no "s" to words ending in "s" even in professional publications.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 14, 2009, 04:19:50 PM
I learned that it could be Jesus's cupcakes or Jesus' cupcakes and always went with the latter because it looked better. But then I emailed Jesus to ask him and he wrote back saying, No, dear pixote, they are the childrens' cupcakes. And I was like, aww, that's sweet, but don't you mean the children's cupcakes? And then he dropped me as a Facebook friend.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 14, 2009, 04:23:32 PM
I learned that it could be Jesus's cupcakes or Jesus' cupcakes and always went with the latter because it looked better. But then I emailed Jesus to ask him and he wrote back saying, No, dear pixote, they are the childrens' cupcakes. And I was like, aww, that's sweet, but don't you mean the children's cupcakes? And then he dropped me as a Facebook friend.
Anything I write will be inadequate to describe the fits of laughter you just put me through.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 14, 2009, 05:11:22 PM
Starbucks' or Starbucks's ?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FLYmeatwad on August 14, 2009, 05:13:42 PM
Starbucks' or Starbucks's ?

Strunk and White would say the latter, I think.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 14, 2009, 05:29:27 PM
Starbucks' or Starbucks's ?
According to my grade school teacher Starbucks's, though I agree with pixote. It looks wrong. (Actually, to me it doesn't look wrong. It sounds wrong. I kind of like the way it looks.)

But what's wrong and what pisses me off, is that it's Starbucks and not Starbuck's. There weren't multiple characters in Moby Dick named Starbuck. There was just one, and it is his coffee shop.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 14, 2009, 05:34:47 PM
yesssssssss I says its dirty hobbittsesss naaaaaasty starbuckssses's
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 16, 2009, 01:41:33 AM
I didn't want to derail another thread with this, but I'm curious about this use of "There's" to introduce a plural predicate ("There is two projects" ??).  I've caught myself doing this lately, but I don't know when or how it started.  Anyone have any ideas?  Most of these sneaky grammatical shifts of late get blamed on instant messenging, but that doesn't seem like a likely culprit 4 this one.

I'm pretty sure that, in the year and a half since I started this thread with the above post, the use of "There's" to introduce a plural has only grown more prevalent (at least on the forum).

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on August 16, 2009, 02:15:40 AM
I didn't want to derail another thread with this, but I'm curious about this use of "There's" to introduce a plural predicate ("There is two projects" ??).  I've caught myself doing this lately, but I don't know when or how it started.  Anyone have any ideas?  Most of these sneaky grammatical shifts of late get blamed on instant messenging, but that doesn't seem like a likely culprit 4 this one.

I'm pretty sure that, in the year and a half since I started this thread with the above post, the use of "There's" to introduce a plural has only grown more prevalent (at least on the forum).

pixote

I do this all the time.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: chardy999 on August 16, 2009, 04:46:17 AM
It gets up my goat when people say 'disinterested' when they mean 'uninterested.' Another case of something becoming more acceptable as it becomes more prevalent.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FLYmeatwad on August 16, 2009, 07:23:40 AM
I didn't want to derail another thread with this, but I'm curious about this use of "There's" to introduce a plural predicate ("There is two projects" ??).  I've caught myself doing this lately, but I don't know when or how it started.  Anyone have any ideas?  Most of these sneaky grammatical shifts of late get blamed on instant messenging, but that doesn't seem like a likely culprit 4 this one.

I'm pretty sure that, in the year and a half since I started this thread with the above post, the use of "There's" to introduce a plural has only grown more prevalent (at least on the forum).

pixote

I don't know about the forums, but in real life I have a bad habit of saying "There're." I just need to enunciate better.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 17, 2009, 07:14:15 AM
I didn't want to derail another thread with this, but I'm curious about this use of "There's" to introduce a plural predicate ("There is two projects" ??).  I've caught myself doing this lately, but I don't know when or how it started.  Anyone have any ideas?  Most of these sneaky grammatical shifts of late get blamed on instant messenging, but that doesn't seem like a likely culprit 4 this one.

I'm pretty sure that, in the year and a half since I started this thread with the above post, the use of "There's" to introduce a plural has only grown more prevalent (at least on the forum).

pixote
There's examples out there. Maybe you could quote one?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 17, 2009, 02:41:12 PM
From the TheReelists.com thread:

This is just me being an anal English teacher, but these are the rules for capitalizing titles if you're interested:

1. Always capitalize the first and the last word.
2. Capitalize all nouns, pronouns, adjectives, verbs, adverbs, and subordinate conjunctions ("as", "because", "although").
3. Lowercase all articles, coordinate conjunctions ("and", "or", "nor", "for", "but", "yet", "so"), and prepositions regardless of length, when they are other than the first or last word.
4. Lowercase the "to" in an infinitive.

Heh, I was going to post to beg that Is be consider an important word (really, the important word) but looks like it's been covered.  Rule 4 confuses me though, leaving me asking, "...as opposed to when?"

Rule #3 indicates that only articles, coordinate conjunctions, and prepositions in the middle of the title should be in lowercase, so following that rule, "to" wouldn't be in lowercase if it was an infinitive, eg. To Be and To Have.

So Rule #4 basically is saying forget the preposition rule when it comes to "to" - just always put it in lowercase, eg. To Be and to Have (which, actually, looks weird to me, but oh, well).

(Did I just explain what you already knew?  :)  Sorry if I'm not getting your question.)

The one that always gets me is 'without' as in Rebel Without a Cause.  It's a preposition, right?  But a damn long one.

Agreed! Seems like it should be in caps.

edit: All About Eve looks super funny with a lowercase about, too.

pixote

Also, agreed! I think I always have an internal conversation with myself about that one, "Wait, don't capitalize 'about'? Right, it looks funny, but just don't do it!"
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 17, 2009, 02:45:14 PM
I didn't want to derail another thread with this, but I'm curious about this use of "There's" to introduce a plural predicate ("There is two projects" ??).  I've caught myself doing this lately, but I don't know when or how it started.  Anyone have any ideas?  Most of these sneaky grammatical shifts of late get blamed on instant messenging, but that doesn't seem like a likely culprit 4 this one.

I'm pretty sure that, in the year and a half since I started this thread with the above post, the use of "There's" to introduce a plural has only grown more prevalent (at least on the forum).

pixote

Seems like "There's" + plural is more prevalent to me, too. I guess it doesn't bug me too much when other people do it, but I'm pretty conscious myself of trying (maybe failing) to avoid a contraction altogether in those cases and just say/write "There are . . ."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on August 17, 2009, 02:48:06 PM
The one I use too much is...

It's my fault rather than It is my fault.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on August 17, 2009, 03:33:01 PM
The one I use too much is...

It's my fault rather than It is my fault.

That's right, though.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on August 17, 2009, 03:34:03 PM
The one I use too much is...

It's my fault rather than It is my fault.

That's right, though.

 I know but it gets repetitive.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: chardy999 on August 17, 2009, 06:01:16 PM
The one I use too much is...

It's my fault rather than It is my fault.

That's right, though.

 I know but it gets repetitive.

It's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's not your fault.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 17, 2009, 06:02:14 PM
Genius.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 'Noke on August 18, 2009, 02:48:08 AM
Genius.
pixote

I always think theres an o in that word. I usually correct myself but my instinct is that there is an o there.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 20, 2009, 03:41:35 AM
Have you ever used the expression willy-nilly in a sentence?  I just tried.  Massive fail.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on August 20, 2009, 03:45:23 AM
I use it all the time.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on August 20, 2009, 06:57:10 AM
Me too. Something I picked up from my parents probably.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: worm@work on August 20, 2009, 08:34:26 AM
Have you ever used the expression willy-nilly in a sentence?  I just tried.  Massive fail.

pixote

I don't get to use it nearly as much as I'd like to. But yeah, I use it :).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 25, 2009, 02:48:52 PM
I have a question.

Susie hit the ball. -

Subject - Susie. hit - verb. the ball - object.

Susie is constipated. -

Subject - Susie. is - verb. constipated - ?

Constipated is an adjective describing Susie. From what I remember, an object can't be an adjective; it has to be a noun. So, the root sentence is "Susie is.", a perfectly valid, yet existential sentence.

Am I correct in this, or is "constipated" the object?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on August 25, 2009, 02:51:00 PM
Constipated is a predicate adjective.  Objects need action verbs; "is" is a "state of being" verb.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 25, 2009, 04:01:07 PM
Lead balloon or led balloon?

A balloon that is made of a heavy metal, and therefore defeats its own purpose? Or a balloon that is so stupid that it needs someone to guide it around?

I'm pretty sure it's the first one, but Led Zepplin screwed it up for all of us.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on August 25, 2009, 04:08:53 PM
It's the first. As in a lead balloon wouldn't float. Though Mythbusters made one that did.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 26, 2009, 02:54:52 PM
Run-on sentence?

Reluctantly leaving the warmth of Barbara and the now familiar little kitchen, he knew the issues that waited down town, and he was already mentally prioritizing the lists of things to do. 
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 26, 2009, 02:57:50 PM
Run-on sentence?

Reluctantly leaving the warmth of Barbara and the now familiar little kitchen, he knew the issues that waited down town, and he was already mentally prioritizing the lists of things to do. 

Maybe split into two sentences?

Reluctantly leaving the warmth of Barbara and the now familiar little kitchen, he knew the issues that waited downtown. He was already mentally prioritizing the lists of things to do.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 26, 2009, 03:00:29 PM
Run-on sentence?

Reluctantly leaving the warmth of Barbara and the now familiar little kitchen, he knew the issues that waited down town, and he was already mentally prioritizing the lists of things to do. 

The sentence doesn't work, but I think the problem is more that the first clause anticipates an action verb or something.  "knew" just kills things.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 26, 2009, 03:04:53 PM
Run-on sentence?

Reluctantly leaving the warmth of Barbara and the now familiar little kitchen, he knew the issues that waited down town, and he was already mentally prioritizing the lists of things to do. 

Maybe split into two sentences?

Reluctantly leaving the warmth of Barbara and the now familiar little kitchen, he knew the issues that waited downtown. He was already mentally prioritizing the lists of things to do.
Agreed. That's what I would do, but I'm trying to remind myself of the rules. I'm hoping Saltine will speak up.

"Reluctantly leaving the warmth of Barbara and the now familiar kitchen" is a (verbal?) phrase. "He knew the issues..." and "he was already pioritizing..." are two sentences that can be joined with the conjunction without becoming a run-on. I just don't know if the three together form a run-on. I forget the rules.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 26, 2009, 03:05:29 PM
Also, downtown is one word, wtf.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 26, 2009, 03:06:11 PM
Run-on sentence?

Reluctantly leaving the warmth of Barbara and the now familiar little kitchen, he knew the issues that waited down town, and he was already mentally prioritizing the lists of things to do.  

As pix points out, it's an odd sentence, but it's not a run-on because the main clauses are properly joined. Adding a verbal to a compound sentence is perfectly fine.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 26, 2009, 03:06:49 PM
Mentally prioritizing... as opposed to...?

I will destroy this sentence!  mwahahahaha!

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 26, 2009, 03:06:55 PM
Run-on sentence?

Reluctantly leaving the warmth of Barbara and the now familiar little kitchen, he knew the issues that waited down town, and he was already mentally prioritizing the lists of things to do. 

The sentence doesn't work, but I think the problem is more that the first clause anticipates an action verb or something.  "knew" just kills things.

pixote
Agreed. This author tends toward passive sentences, but in this case, I'm just trying to remind myself of the rules.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 26, 2009, 03:08:53 PM
Run-on sentence?

Reluctantly leaving the warmth of Barbara and the now familiar little kitchen, he knew the issues that waited down town, and he was already mentally prioritizing the lists of things to do. 

As pix points out, it's an odd sentence, but it's not a run-on.
So did I break it down correctly here (http://www.filmspotting.net/boards/index.php?topic=2961.msg310510#msg310510)?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 26, 2009, 03:09:32 PM
I didn't know there were rules....

Quote
You might be wondering: "What is a sentence?"

Oh.  Thanks, internet!

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 26, 2009, 03:11:11 PM
Run-on sentence?

Reluctantly leaving the warmth of Barbara and the now familiar little kitchen, he knew the issues that waited down town, and he was already mentally prioritizing the lists of things to do. 

As pix points out, it's an odd sentence, but it's not a run-on.
So did I break it down correctly here (http://www.filmspotting.net/boards/index.php?topic=2961.msg310510#msg310510)?

Yes. (I edited my post above to clarify.)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 26, 2009, 03:13:53 PM
Run-on sentence?

Reluctantly leaving the warmth of Barbara and the now familiar little kitchen, he knew the issues that waited down town, and he was already mentally prioritizing the lists of things to do. 

As pix points out, it's an odd sentence, but it's not a run-on.
So did I break it down correctly here (http://www.filmspotting.net/boards/index.php?topic=2961.msg310510#msg310510)?

Yes. (I edited my post above to clarify.)
Thanks. I feel like I need to re-take 7th grade English.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 26, 2009, 03:20:03 PM
Run-on sentence?

Reluctantly leaving the warmth of Barbara and the now familiar little kitchen, he knew the issues that waited down town, and he was already mentally prioritizing the lists of things to do. 

As pix points out, it's an odd sentence, but it's not a run-on.
So did I break it down correctly here (http://www.filmspotting.net/boards/index.php?topic=2961.msg310510#msg310510)?

Yes. (I edited my post above to clarify.)
Thanks. I feel like I need to re-take 7th grade English.

Taking a 7th grade English class these days probably wouldn't help. My college students now have either had no grammar ever or they've collectively had their grammar memories wiped. Most of them can't even identify the subject and verb of a sentence, much less figure out what a run-on is.  ???
And the thing that bugs me most is that they really do (most of them) want to learn more about grammar - they complain every quarter that we don't get enough time for grammar. If I did build more grammar into my classes though, I couldn't fit in all the other stuff I'm supposed to be teaching. Frustrating.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 26, 2009, 03:20:41 PM
I wonder why he needs multiple lists of things to do.  That seems inefficient.  But maybe he's got a system.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 26, 2009, 03:21:35 PM
Was the kitchen warm, too, or just Barbara?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 26, 2009, 03:24:11 PM
I'm going to point the struggling author to this thread and she's going to read your mocking posts and then she'll get all weepy and sad and probably pull her eyebrows out. And then won't you feel like a meanie?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 26, 2009, 03:27:19 PM
I'm going to point the struggling author to this thread and she's going to read your mocking posts and then she'll get all weepy and sad and probably pull her eyebrows out.

So, wait, is that a run-on sentence?  What do the rules say?!

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 26, 2009, 03:28:04 PM
I'm going to point the struggling author to this thread and she's going to read your mocking posts and then she'll get all weepy and sad and probably pull her eyebrows out.

So, wait, is that a run-on sentence?  What do the rules say?!

pixote
I want you dead.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 26, 2009, 03:28:39 PM
I want you dead.

Meanie!

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 26, 2009, 03:30:56 PM
I want you dead.

Meanie!

pixote
God bless Antarctica, your avatar makes everything you type manic.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 26, 2009, 03:36:56 PM
Here's the thing. In my writers' group, we have to critique this piece of writing. I understand that rules of grammar can and sometimes ought to be broken. As you know, I break them all the time. However, if I want to be a real writer, I ought to know when I'm breaking them. Breaking the rules should be a conscious decision, not a product of ignorance.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: roujin on August 26, 2009, 04:00:29 PM
My college students now have either had no grammar ever or they've collectively had their grammar memories wiped. Most of them can't even identify the subject and verb of a sentence, much less figure out what a run-on is.  ???

Hello.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 26, 2009, 04:17:28 PM
Here's the thing. In my writers' group, we have to critique this piece of writing. I understand that rules of grammar can and sometimes ought to be broken. As you know, I break them all the time. However, if I want to be a real writer, I ought to know when I'm breaking them. Breaking the rules should be a conscious decision, not a product of ignorance.

I feel ya!

But, I dunno, it seems to me (not that I know what I'm talking about) that the idea of run-on sentences is pretty much something that elementary teachers make up to get kids to throw a second period in a sentence like "I like soda my brother is a jerk."  Just a dumbed-down way of explaining sentence structure and punctuation.  Then, in high school, teachers shy away from that imaginary idea and talk more concretely about things like comma splices.  (Microsoft Word's goddamn paperclip operates at the grammar school level, of course.)

Spot the fragment!

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 26, 2009, 04:25:02 PM
Just a dumbed-down way of explaining sentence structure and punctuation.
And you should never start a sentence with a conjunction.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 26, 2009, 04:28:48 PM
My college students now have either had no grammar ever or they've collectively had their grammar memories wiped. Most of them can't even identify the subject and verb of a sentence, much less figure out what a run-on is.  ???

Hello.

Hi!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 26, 2009, 04:33:57 PM
And I'm going to continue avoiding this particular piece by posting here because the piece hurts my head. It's about cops and a mystery and people speaking gruffly. Plus the author just switched from third-person limited to omniscient, and I didn't catch it. So, I was two-thirds of the way down a page before I realized I wasn't following the character that guided me into the scene.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 26, 2009, 04:37:18 PM
Just noticed the caption on your avatar.  Nice.

My biggest grammar confusion is probably still that vs. which.  I think it might be a case where I know the rules, I just don't like them.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 26, 2009, 04:45:08 PM
My biggest grammar confusion is probably still that vs. which

pixote

Same. I looked that rule up the other day to try to get it into my thick head once and for all, but I promptly forgot it. I remember thinking it was annoying rule, whatever it was.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 26, 2009, 05:06:41 PM
I've noticed that I've become dash-happy. The Advocate's style guide tells us to dash when the ____ is used as an adjective, but not when it is used as a noun.

Eg.

a mixed-use development

v.

a development with a mixed use.

There are many, many examples of this type of dashing in the style guide, so I've started defaulting to it. Now, I'm never sure if I'm using the dash correctly.

Also, I've started using dashes instead of using commas or dividing sentences.

Eg.

Most of that area is served by Lochwood, but some of it will be served by the White Rock Hills Branch - off Ferguson, west of N. Buckner - slated to open in 2011.

Jesus H. Smith, that is a cluster-CINECAST! of a sentence. (I hate parentheticals.)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 26, 2009, 05:08:57 PM
Heh, I went back to edit a post earlier, just to add the dash to dumbed-down.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: chardy999 on August 26, 2009, 06:50:44 PM
Just a dumbed-down way of explaining sentence structure and punctuation.
And you should never start a sentence with a conjunction.

ICWUDT  :D
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 26, 2009, 06:55:09 PM
Here's the thing. In my writers' group, we have to critique this piece of writing. I understand that rules of grammar can and sometimes ought to be broken. As you know, I break them all the time. However, if I want to be a real writer, I ought to know when I'm breaking them. Breaking the rules should be a conscious decision, not a product of ignorance.

I used this for lesson planning while student teaching ESL classes. It's really easy to use. I have one at home and will check this out - I am curious now myself.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 26, 2009, 07:12:31 PM
Here's the thing. In my writers' group, we have to critique this piece of writing. I understand that rules of grammar can and sometimes ought to be broken. As you know, I break them all the time. However, if I want to be a real writer, I ought to know when I'm breaking them. Breaking the rules should be a conscious decision, not a product of ignorance.

I used this for lesson planning while student teaching ESL classes. It's really easy to use. I have one at home and will check this out - I am curious now myself.
Are you missing a link to a book or something?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 26, 2009, 07:15:30 PM
Yes - the result of working while sick and being on far too much cold medicine....

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-English-Usage-Michael-Swan/dp/019442099X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b (http://www.amazon.com/Practical-English-Usage-Michael-Swan/dp/019442099X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on August 27, 2009, 07:57:38 PM
1. Clovis, it's an acronym.

So is laser, but that doesn't necessitate its being presented in all caps all the time.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ses on August 27, 2009, 07:58:31 PM
1. Clovis, it's an acronym.

So is laser, but that doesn't necessitate its being presented in all caps all the time.

pixote

You know what does need to be in all caps? BURN!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FLYmeatwad on August 27, 2009, 07:58:54 PM
1. Clovis, it's an acronym.

So is laser, but that doesn't necessitate its being presented in all caps all the time.

pixote

LASER is a lesser word.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Melvil on September 12, 2009, 05:19:37 PM
When alphabetizing, which would come first?

2001: A Space Odyssey
28 Days Later

I can't decide if it should be (28 < 2001) or (0 < 8).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on September 12, 2009, 05:25:57 PM
according to iTunes its the second.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on September 12, 2009, 05:29:10 PM
Is that iTunes 9, though?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on September 12, 2009, 06:17:04 PM
When alphabetizing, which would come first?

2001: A Space Odyssey
28 Days Later

I can't decide if it should be (28 < 2001) or (0 < 8).

Definitely 28 < 2001... besides if you do 0 < 8 your still going to have to sort 2001 and 2010 somehow :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on September 12, 2009, 06:23:40 PM
Definitely 28 < 2001... besides if you do 0 < 8 your still going to have to sort 2001 and 2010 somehow :)

I think iTunes would get that one right, actually (0 < 1).

pixote!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bill Thompson on September 15, 2009, 06:49:23 PM
I have a question for anyone who can answer it. Should master be capitalized when it is used to refer to a person. When a servant refers to their boss/owner as master should it be capitalized? For some reason my brainm thinks that it should be, but my gut thinks that's incorrect.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: zarodinu on September 15, 2009, 06:56:30 PM
I have a question for anyone who can answer it. Should master be capitalized when it is used to refer to a person. When a servant refers to their boss/owner as master should it be capitalized? For some reason my brainm thinks that it should be, but my gut thinks that's incorrect.

I don't think so.

Which reminds me, is it true that you have capitalize the words Congress and Constitution?

As in "Congress is a bunch of thieves and crooks using the Constitution as toilet paper".

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bill Thompson on September 15, 2009, 06:58:05 PM
Hmmm, I'm not sure. I know that you don't have to capitalize president, even when you are referring to the office. Not sure about the two C's though.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: StarCarly on September 15, 2009, 09:24:13 PM
A girl on TV just said "I get to donate the money to the charity of my choice, so I feel like I'm doing something well."

She may be doing it well, but doesn't that sound weird in that context? She meant "good" right? I'm not a grammar freak, but it hurts my ears when people say "That was done good." No, it was done well.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: chardy999 on September 15, 2009, 09:47:35 PM
She's doing a good thing so yeah she's doing something good.

Using well like that makes it sound like she's doing something effectively.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bill Thompson on September 19, 2009, 05:03:48 PM
So back to the master thing. I'm writing a story where a female character has achieved the rank of master in her field. When people talk to her they would address her as Master "Insert Name Here" correct? I know that the Mistress title is out there, but that doesn't seem right and it carries certain connotations with it. I hate when i get stumped on easy stuff like this.  :-[
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on September 19, 2009, 05:10:53 PM
So back to the master thing. I'm writing a story where a female character has achieved the rank of master in her field. When people talk to her they would address her as Master "Insert Name Here" correct? I know that the Mistress title is out there, but that doesn't seem right and it carries certain connotations with it. I hate when i get stumped on easy stuff like this.  :-[

They would say master yes, in most contexts.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on September 23, 2009, 12:26:54 AM
And now I'm plumb out of secrets.

Is that b optional or what?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on September 23, 2009, 12:38:27 AM
And now I'm plumb out of secrets.

Is that b optional or what?

pixote

"Plumb out?" is a contraction for "Plumb out of food?" A plumb is a lead weight; one most commonly finds the word in the combination plumb line, which is a device used by builders to ensure that things are truly vertical. Because when one uses a "plumb" one is testing the accuracy of something, the word has come to be used as an emphatic intensifier meaning "really" or "truly" or "completely".

so yes you need the "b".
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on September 23, 2009, 12:44:50 AM
Plumb and plum seem pretty interchangeable in this context, according to the Dictionary of American Regional English, Volume 4 (thanks, Google Books!).

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on September 23, 2009, 12:47:22 AM
Quote from: New English Review (http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_days.cfm/d/11/m/11/y/2008)
"Plumb out of luck" out-googles "plum out of luck", but most of the entries seem to be puns about plumbers, making trial by google less than watertight.
Heh.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on September 23, 2009, 12:47:23 AM
Plumb and plum seem pretty interchangeable in this context, according to the Dictionary of American Regional English, Volume 4 (thanks, Google Books!).

pixote

Really? It seems plumb is the tool and plum is the fruit.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on September 23, 2009, 12:49:14 AM
Yeah, it's a variant.  But I assume plumb carried that meaning first, etymologically, in line with what you said.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on September 23, 2009, 12:50:27 AM
Yeah, it's a variant.  But I assume plumb carried that meaning first, etymologically, in line with what you said.

pixote

The fluidity of language. One day's mistake is the next day's proper usage.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on September 23, 2009, 12:58:36 AM
Really? It seems plumb is the tool and plum is the fruit.
(http://i33.tinypic.com/2rgmf0x.png)

Heh, "plumb fagged."  That's genius.

The fluidity of language. One day's mistake is the next day's proper usage.
Haha, quite the high horse for a self-proclaimed awful speller.  (At least I think that was you.)

Anyway, hopefully someone can check OED and see what's really what.

Also, for the record, plum isn't always a noun.  It's also an adjective meaning "extremely desirable, rewarding, profitable, or the like: a plum job in the foreign service."  Whether that meaning derives from plumb as well, I'm not sure.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on September 23, 2009, 01:03:20 AM
Oh!  You are right.  I was so excited to finally use my Dirty Harry poster I plum forgot.

As for that "pretentious dialogue" — well, that's plum crazy.

I'm in good company!

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on September 23, 2009, 01:04:19 AM
I am a very good speller just a terrible typer and I am too lax in proof reading my posts. I hadn't thought of the other uses of plum, like plum job. Makes sense it could be used either way.

This seems like a good spot for my favorite dangling participle joke.

One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know.  
–Groucho Marx
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on September 23, 2009, 01:53:47 AM
I like the word ruint - i am takin it back.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Colleen on September 23, 2009, 03:19:04 PM
So back to the master thing. I'm writing a story where a female character has achieved the rank of master in her field. When people talk to her they would address her as Master "Insert Name Here" correct? I know that the Mistress title is out there, but that doesn't seem right and it carries certain connotations with it. I hate when i get stumped on easy stuff like this.  :-[

They would say master yes, in most contexts.

I agree.  My entry level rank in the PD was patrolman.  The best way would be to use something gender neutral like patrol officer, but I certainly prefer patrolman to patrolwoman or police woman.  Avatar excepted.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on September 23, 2009, 04:43:26 PM
My compact OED offers both "plum" and "plumb" "As an intensive: Completely, entirely, absolutely, quite" with these instances:

1587 Misfortunes of Arthur Then rowles and reeles and falles at length plum ripe
1787 GROSE Provinc. Gloss. Plum pleasant very pleasant
1882 BURDETT Life Penn Penn wrote his wife and children a long letter which filled them plumbfull with good advice
1893 Harper's Weekly You're plumb crazy, she remarked, with easy candor.
1897 KIPLING Captains Courageous You've turned up plain, plumb provincial for all concerned

The first two instances make me think the original usage is linked to the the fruit, not the plumb line. Fascinating. I've always thought of the etymology of it as linked to a plumb line.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Colleen on September 23, 2009, 05:48:20 PM
My favorite is the confusion of "toe the line" or "tow the line".  The phrase is used to mean sticking to the rules, and in both cases there's a visual that kind of has that meaning.

(The correct phrase is "toe the line" for the record)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: chardy999 on September 23, 2009, 11:12:52 PM
(The correct phrase is "toe the line" for the record)

That surprises me. I feel like "towing the line" is more common (making me think it would be "tow") but is that even correctly spelt as "towing"?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Colleen on September 23, 2009, 11:15:52 PM
(The correct phrase is "toe the line" for the record)

That surprises me. I feel like "towing the line" is more common (making me think it would be "tow") but is that even correctly spelt as "towing"?

It's a common misspelling or misstatement.  Apparently the phrase comes from the practice of calling sailors to order on a British naval ship by ordering them to "toe the line" or stand so that they were lined up in formation with the fronts of their feet touching the same crack between the planks of the deck.  Or that's what Wikipedia says, and we know Wikipedia is always right....
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on October 06, 2009, 12:29:27 AM
I've been watching the first season of Arrested Development, and on one of the commentaries, Jeffrey Tambor mentioned that moot (like, say, peruse) means the opposite of what you think it means:

1. open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful: a moot point.

There are other definitions, yeah, but this first one still really surprised me.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Basil on October 06, 2009, 12:30:43 AM
This is two in a row (peruse the other) that I knew! And that anger me every time I'm reminded...
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Colleen on October 06, 2009, 12:32:07 AM
I always understood "moot point" to be one that there's no reason to debate, or that debate has now become irrelevant.  Like, "Once the purchased kidney was transplanted, the ethics of the situation were a moot point.  What were they going to do, put it back?"
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on October 06, 2009, 12:38:52 AM
From the freedictionary.com

mootness n.
Usage Note: The adjective moot is originally a legal term going back to the mid-16th century. It derives from the noun moot, in its sense of a hypothetical case argued as an exercise by law students. Consequently, a moot question is one that is arguable or open to debate. But in the mid-19th century people also began to look at the hypothetical side of moot as its essential meaning, and they started to use the word to mean "of no significance or relevance." Thus, a moot point, however debatable, is one that has no practical value. A number of critics have objected to this use, but 59 percent of the Usage Panel accepts it in the sentence The nominee himself chastised the White House for failing to do more to support him, but his concerns became moot when a number of Republicans announced that they, too, would oppose the nomination. When using moot one should be sure that the context makes clear which sense is meant.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: chardy999 on October 06, 2009, 02:46:28 AM
One word I find funny that means the opposite is 'excess.'

As in, you have a car accident and you have to pay 'excess' on the bumper bar that got smashed. In reality you pay the initial amount to the insurance company and they pay the excess.

There's another one like that, but for the life of me I cannot remember at the moment.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on October 06, 2009, 07:14:46 AM
I have a friend writing a fantasy novel. He uses a made–up standard of time, similar to our A.D. and B.C. His is "Moot–Year". I wonder if he knew the definition before he started.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ferris on October 06, 2009, 04:10:10 PM
Jesse Jackson on Saturday Night Live hosting a game show called "The Question is Moot"

http://menino.com/wp/2005/10/19/the-question-is-moot/ (http://menino.com/wp/2005/10/19/the-question-is-moot/) (then click on the link half way down)

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 'Noke on October 07, 2009, 01:43:39 PM
We have the PSAT's next week. I did pretty badly on the last section.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on October 09, 2009, 09:28:15 AM
Writer v. Author

I was just editing a piece for a newsletter, and I realized I needed an author's bio. But then I thought, "Wait. Is it 'writer's bio'? This is more of a journalist's piece."

Is there a technical difference in the writing trades?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Colleen on October 09, 2009, 03:38:23 PM
I don't think there's any true "official" distinction but I tend to think of authors as people who write longer pieces like books, writers are people who write anything from books to the directions for how to set up your X-box to ad copy.  I think also "author" has more of a connotation of art, while "writer" feels more craft.  In a newsletter I would call it a writer's bio or contributor's bio depending on whether you write articles in every issue or if this is just a one time thing.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bill Thompson on October 09, 2009, 07:34:33 PM
As most know the Bill's Trivia Of The Day topic started because every year it is a family tradition that someone buys me a day-by-day calendar from my dog. This year the rest of my family is broke so I'll be buying the calendar myself. It pertains this topic because I'm thinking of either getting the Word-A-Day calendar or the Olde English word-a-day calendar, both sound pretty cool to me.

I'm also considering the 365 stupidest quotes of all time and 365 days of sports trivia, but we shall see.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on October 09, 2009, 10:02:28 PM
I'm also considering the 365 stupidest quotes

If you're referring to this one (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/ISBNInquiry.asp?EAN=9780761149705), my uncle is one of the authors (er, researchers?).  He's one of the nicest, most intelligent people I've ever met and super fun at parties.  :)  His calendar is a lot of fun, too.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bill Thompson on October 09, 2009, 10:10:27 PM
I'm also considering the 365 stupidest quotes

If you're referring to this one (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/ISBNInquiry.asp?EAN=9780761149705), my uncle is one of the authors (er, researchers?).  He's one of the nicest, most intelligent people I've ever met and super fun at parties.  :)  His calendar is a lot of fun, too.

That would be the one yeah. Whichever one I get I plan on starting a new topic about it, so expect a stupid quote a day or a new word a day. :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on October 09, 2009, 10:27:31 PM
I'm also considering the 365 stupidest quotes

If you're referring to this one (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/ISBNInquiry.asp?EAN=9780761149705), my uncle is one of the authors (er, researchers?).  He's one of the nicest, most intelligent people I've ever met and super fun at parties.  :)  His calendar is a lot of fun, too.

That would be the one yeah. Whichever one I get I plan on starting a new topic about it, so expect a stupid quote a day or a new word a day. :)

Fun!  :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 'Noke on October 17, 2009, 05:34:08 PM
I'm also considering the 365 stupidest quotes

If you're referring to this one (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/ISBNInquiry.asp?EAN=9780761149705), my uncle is one of the authors (er, researchers?).  He's one of the nicest, most intelligent people I've ever met and super fun at parties.  :)  His calendar is a lot of fun, too.

Ooohhh...I want to get that. I'm a sucker for stupid quotes.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 'Noke on October 17, 2009, 05:36:04 PM
I keep mixing up now and know. It's very annoying.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FLYmeatwad on October 17, 2009, 05:41:30 PM
I keep mixing up now then and know than. It's very annoying.

 :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on October 22, 2009, 11:43:45 AM
Thought this was kinda funny. :)

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1923266 (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1923266)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on October 23, 2009, 12:21:45 PM
when using a hyphenate in a title, are both parts uppercase?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on October 23, 2009, 01:15:56 PM
when using a hyphenate in a title, are both parts uppercase?
It appears so, as in the example "The Star-Spangled Banner"
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on October 23, 2009, 01:17:40 PM
when using a hyphenate in a title, are both parts uppercase?
It appears so, as in the example "The Star-Spangled Banner"

yeah, it looks right (and better) that way, just wanted to be sure.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bill Thompson on October 23, 2009, 01:18:37 PM
when using a hyphenate in a title, are both parts uppercase?

Depends on the language sometimes, I do know that it's very common in translated Japanese for the first word to be capitalized and the word after the hyphen to not be capitalized.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on October 23, 2009, 01:31:24 PM
Hopefully this isn't too inside: @FakeAPStylebook (http://twitter.com/FakeAPStylebook) on Twitter.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on October 23, 2009, 02:36:08 PM
Hopefully this isn't too inside: @FakeAPStylebook (http://twitter.com/FakeAPStylebook) on Twitter.

I was just about to post this. It is my favorite thing to happen this week. Well, second favorite.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on October 27, 2009, 02:22:38 PM
Cass's story or Cass' story?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on October 27, 2009, 02:27:37 PM
I remain in favor of the latter (http://www.filmspotting.net/boards/index.php?topic=2961.msg303494#msg303494).

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on October 27, 2009, 02:29:25 PM
I kind of like the super sibilance, though. 4 s's!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on October 27, 2009, 02:30:43 PM
Somebody explain who and whom to me. Pretty please. Grammar Girl just added to my confusion.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on October 27, 2009, 02:41:10 PM
This is my basic rule

Use who if the answer is he or she or they. (Who did it, he/she/they did)
Use whom if the answer is him, her or them.  (To whom should I speak, speak to him/her/them)

right?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on October 27, 2009, 02:55:55 PM
This is my basic rule

Use who if the answer is he or she or they. (Who did it, he/she/they did)
Use whom if the answer is him, her or them.  (To whom should I speak, speak to him/her/them)

right?

Yes. Who is subjective (as in "subject"); whom is objective (as in "object").

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on October 27, 2009, 02:59:41 PM
That, too.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on October 27, 2009, 03:07:23 PM
George Thorogood - Who Do You Love (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMBXOACDUU0#normal)
And now you can never quite enjoy this song again.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on October 27, 2009, 07:12:17 PM
Who and whom are often said and written wrongly.

Even more, lie and lay are almost always written and said wrongly.  I can prove to you that you do not use these verbs correctly.  When was the last time you uttered "have lain"?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on October 27, 2009, 07:32:31 PM
Even more, lie and lay are almost always written and said wrongly.  I can prove to you that you do not use these verbs correctly.  When was the last time you uttered "have lain"?

Yes, lie/lay are misused even more frequently. I know the difference, and yet I still have to think hard when choosing which to use. Correct usage doesn't come naturally.  :(
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on October 28, 2009, 12:33:15 PM
Here's a good article/blog post on writing/grammar rules. (http://www.copyblogger.com/bad-writing-habits/)

I love copyblogger. ;)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on October 28, 2009, 02:15:35 PM
Who and whom are often said and written wrongly.

Especially by our new moderator:
This was my first viewing and I can say with complete confidence I have no idea who killed who and why but I dont care!
Title: Re: Antichrist (Lars von Trier, 2009)
Post by: FLYmeatwad on October 28, 2009, 05:58:36 PM
Do you still spell it as "alot" even when doing formal writing or are these emails informal?
Title: Re: Antichrist (Lars von Trier, 2009)
Post by: Clovis8 on October 28, 2009, 06:00:51 PM
Do you still spell it as "alot" even when doing formal writing or are these emails informal?

It's all informal. I would not use alot in a formal context.
Title: Re: Antichrist (Lars von Trier, 2009)
Post by: FLYmeatwad on October 28, 2009, 06:06:57 PM
Do you still spell it as "alot" even when doing formal writing or are these emails informal?

It's all informal. I would not use alot in a formal context.

But, if you would use it in formal context would you still spell it that way?
Title: Re: Antichrist (Lars von Trier, 2009)
Post by: Clovis8 on October 28, 2009, 06:09:01 PM
Do you still spell it as "alot" even when doing formal writing or are these emails informal?

It's all informal. I would not use alot in a formal context.

But, if you would use it in formal context would you still spell it that way?

I think the correct way is a lot rather than alot. It's just me being too informal. I am going to move this discussion though.
Title: Re: Antichrist (Lars von Trier, 2009)
Post by: 'Noke on October 28, 2009, 06:25:38 PM
Do you still spell it as "alot" even when doing formal writing or are these emails informal?

It's all informal. I would not use alot in a formal context.

But, if you would use it in formal context would you still spell it that way?

I think the correct way is a lot rather than alot. It's just me being too informal. I am going to move this discussion though.

He did! And the internets are still working! Maybe clovis won't be a bad admin.  :-\
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on October 28, 2009, 08:08:08 PM
This is my basic rule

Use who if the answer is he or she or they. (Who did it, he/she/they did)
Use whom if the answer is him, her or them.  (To whom should I speak, speak to him/her/them)

right?
Thanks. That's very handy.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Wowser on November 12, 2009, 02:54:12 PM
Junior is dead-on about the who/whom thing. That's also how I learnt it.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on November 12, 2009, 07:23:33 PM
Woo!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on November 12, 2009, 08:43:16 PM
I've been getting an etymology/semantics/grammar question emailed to me on a semi-weekly basis.

Here's this week's question:
What word for a type of word derives from a word that means "word" in Latin?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on November 12, 2009, 11:03:13 PM
I've been getting an etymology/semantics/grammar question emailed to me on a semi-weekly basis.

Here's this week's question:
What word for a type of word derives from a word that means "word" in Latin?

"Verb"?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on November 12, 2009, 11:22:05 PM
I was thinking it would be noun but verb could work.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on November 13, 2009, 01:12:00 AM
Pix got it! The word "verb" ultimately derives from the Latin "verbum," "word."

Here's another from a previous week:
In Italian it means "bottle."
In English it means "a complete and ridiculous failure."
What three-syllable word is it?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on November 13, 2009, 01:28:51 AM
fiasco
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on November 13, 2009, 02:04:01 AM
Yep, you got it, Clovis. These are too easy for you all. I need to find some more difficult ones.  :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 'Noke on November 13, 2009, 12:40:32 PM
Yep, you got it, Clovis. These are too easy for you all. I need to find some more difficult ones.  :)

Please Don't, I didn't get either one. (Although verb seems kind of obvious).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on November 15, 2009, 09:50:43 PM
si.com front page headline: Packers stymies Cowboys.

Go, Pack, Go!

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on November 16, 2009, 03:26:50 PM
Wondering why it's always "the wife" and never "the husband."

I do occasionally hear "the husband" or "the boy(friend)", but I still find this sort of (seeming) distanciation very weird.

Then again, the use of the possessive ("my wife") has some troubling connotations, too, I suppose — especially given the wedding traditions of various cultures.  (I never want to be given anyway, thank you very much.  I'm not a stray dog.)

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on November 16, 2009, 03:30:28 PM
I hear "the boyfriend" on occasion, but never "the husband".
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on November 16, 2009, 08:15:58 PM
Wondering why it's always "the wife" and never "the husband."

Then again, the use of the possessive ("my wife") has some troubling connotations, too, I suppose

Yes, but we just don't have another pronoun that will indicate the relationship?
"The woman to whom I am married . . ."  - a bit unwieldy.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on November 16, 2009, 08:20:04 PM
"You are saying that my wife is dead? High five!"
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on November 24, 2009, 01:12:19 PM
I spelled verisimilitude correctly the first time. Just bragging.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: StarCarly on December 02, 2009, 07:45:30 PM
Can someone tell me whether I should use "affect" or "effect" in the following sentence?:

"Marvin's theory of communication as embodiment helps to explain how the formal elements of the story e/affects the meaning."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on December 02, 2009, 07:46:01 PM
affect...a is a verb, e is a noun
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: roujin on December 02, 2009, 07:46:36 PM
What the corndog said.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on December 02, 2009, 07:47:10 PM
Affects! (http://www.filmspotting.net/boards/index.php?topic=2961.msg113232#msg113232)

Effect can be a verb, too, for the record.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: StarCarly on December 02, 2009, 07:47:36 PM
affect...a is a verb, e is a noun

My first day of college I said that exact thing in a class, and the teacher looked at me like I was crazy. Thanks for confirming it for me :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on December 02, 2009, 07:47:54 PM
Affects! (http://www.filmspotting.net/boards/index.php?topic=2961.msg113232#msg113232)

Effect can be a verb, too, for the record.

pixote

hmmm, well what do you know. Use it in a sentence!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on December 02, 2009, 11:03:45 PM
Affects! (http://www.filmspotting.net/boards/index.php?topic=2961.msg113232#msg113232)

Effect can be a verb, too, for the record.

pixote

hmmm, well what do you know. Use it in a sentence!
Will President Obama be able to effect a change in the health care system?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Colleen on December 02, 2009, 11:08:50 PM
Affects! (http://www.filmspotting.net/boards/index.php?topic=2961.msg113232#msg113232)

Effect can be a verb, too, for the record.

pixote

hmmm, well what do you know. Use it in a sentence!
Will President Obama be able to effect a change in the health care system?


Heh, I was just on the verge of writing a similar sentence with President Obama as subject and change as object.

And just to be really contrarian, affect can be a noun, usually talking about someone's demeanor.  Someone having a happy or depressed affect.  It's pretty much only used in psychology.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on December 02, 2009, 11:14:01 PM
Maybe you both subconsciously remember the example I used originally (in the linked post above).  :D

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on December 02, 2009, 11:17:52 PM
Maybe you both subconsciously remember the example I used originally (in the linked post above).  :D

pixote
:D You're probably right. That sentence was the first one that popped into my head, and I couldn't think of anything else, only various versions of other people effecting changes.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 'Noke on December 04, 2009, 09:38:42 AM
What's the difference between a nerd and a geek?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on December 04, 2009, 10:28:18 AM
one spends all their time on these boards, the other is some sort of circus side-show attraction.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on December 04, 2009, 10:44:37 AM
What's the difference between a nerd and a geek?
Try this (http://www.wikihow.com/Tell-the-Difference-Between-Nerds-and-Geeks).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on December 04, 2009, 11:16:21 AM
What's the difference between a nerd and a geek?
Try this (http://www.wikihow.com/Tell-the-Difference-Between-Nerds-and-Geeks).

Good stuff.

Quote
Engage the person in conversation. If the person fails to respond in a socially comfortable manner (i.e. they make you nervous, or vice versa), you may be talking to a nerd. If they respond in a comfortable manner but appear a little 'dorky', include obscure references, and/or act silly, you might be talking to a geek. Also, nerds may speak in layman's terms for your benefit because you may not understand the basic concepts of their area interest. Geeks may speak in detail about their own interests, unconcerned with whether or not you truly comprehend it.

Quote
To engage a geek or a nerd in conversation, be prepared to accept that there is something fundamentally interesting about what they obsess about. You may not fully understand why, but just accept that it is so.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on December 06, 2009, 02:54:34 PM
Flight - when did this start referring to a series of items to be eaten or drank? as in tequila flights, pancake flights ect.  does it comr from flight as in geese or as in stairs?  this definition is not yet in dictionary.com or merriam-webster.com.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on December 06, 2009, 03:04:29 PM
Anyone else annoyed by people who don't know the difference between cue and queue?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on December 12, 2009, 07:21:02 AM
completionist

Nice.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: edgar00 on December 12, 2009, 01:07:08 PM
Anyone else annoyed by people who don't know the difference between cue and queue?
Annoyed, no. Disappointed perhaps.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on December 12, 2009, 03:04:19 PM
Anyone else annoyed by people who don't know the difference between cue and queue?
Annoyed, no. Disappointed perhaps.
I love the word queue - so many vowels in a row!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on December 13, 2009, 02:35:42 PM
Anyone else annoyed by people who don't know the difference between cue and queue?
Annoyed, no. Disappointed perhaps.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FLYmeatwad on December 13, 2009, 02:45:15 PM
Anyone else annoyed by people who don't know the difference between cue and queue?

I call the latter 'kway' because I like the sound better.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on December 13, 2009, 02:47:39 PM
I bet Miley would say it that way.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FLYmeatwad on December 13, 2009, 02:49:36 PM
Probably because she likes the sound better, that girl has good taste.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 1SO on December 16, 2009, 11:59:50 PM
Is there a root commonality between a philanderer and a philanthropist?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on December 17, 2009, 12:12:19 AM
Is there a root commonality between a philanderer and a philanthropist?

phil = love?
an = human?

I'm guessing there are common roots there.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on January 03, 2010, 11:37:36 PM
Me, too.

That comma looks so weird!  But it's right, right?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on January 04, 2010, 12:00:24 AM
Me, too.

That comma looks so weird!  But it's right, right?

pixote
Now you have me second guessing myself - but I think that's right (although I should have said "I, too"!).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on January 04, 2010, 12:00:51 AM
Moi aussi!

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on January 05, 2010, 04:43:54 PM
"pantywaist"

huh, always assumed it was panty-waste.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on January 05, 2010, 05:44:05 PM
And I always thought it was panty-waist. To me, panties feel better hanging around a waistline, not a waste basket.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on January 05, 2010, 06:46:14 PM
A pantywaist is that little boy's outfit where the shirt buttons onto the pants...sissy clothes.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Colleen on January 05, 2010, 11:16:22 PM
What she said.  More fun etymology here:

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990427 (http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990427)

As insults go, I'm glad it stuck around instead of "big girl's blouse"
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: chardy999 on January 06, 2010, 01:07:51 AM
Few, a few, and quite a few all mean different amounts!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on January 07, 2010, 06:58:42 PM
We discussed this a long time ago, but I don't remember a definitive answer.

Regarding which words to capitalize in the title of a work, the AP Style Guide says use lowercase on an article, preposition or conjunction that is three letters or less, unless it is the first or last word. Otherwise all words are capitalized. For some reason, that's really helped me.

The Lord of the Rings

Of Mice and Men

The Grapes of Wrath

Something About Mary

Out of the Blue

Born on the Fourth of July

Living in Oblivion

Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on January 07, 2010, 07:24:04 PM
Something About Mary

Somewhere Over the Rainbow

Certainly looks right.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Basil on January 11, 2010, 04:02:09 PM
Well done (http://www.filmspotting.net/boards/index.php?topic=7223.msg383124;topicseen#new).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on January 11, 2010, 04:03:29 PM
Well done (http://www.filmspotting.net/boards/index.php?topic=7223.msg383124;topicseen#new).
Mr. Corndog leads by example, ya know?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on February 02, 2010, 03:41:50 PM
I feel like the word "so" should be spelt with two O's sometimes, like "too".

e.g. This would be a good movie if it weren't soo long.

It's a typo I often have to go back and correct. In my head it just makes sense! :-\
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 02, 2010, 03:46:02 PM
I feel like the word "so" should be spelt with two O's sometimes, like "too".

e.g. This would be a good movie if it weren't soo long.

It's a typo I often have to go back and correct. In my head it just makes sense! :-\
I'd say it's fine for informal writing. :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 08, 2010, 02:29:20 PM
This (http://www.theamericanscholar.org/writing-english-as-a-second-language/) is great. And don't be put off by the title - it's for anyone who writes, not just those whose second language is English.

Quote
The English language is derived from two main sources. One is Latin, the florid language of ancient Rome. The other is Anglo-Saxon, the plain languages of England and northern Europe. The words derived from Latin are the enemy—they will strangle and suffocate everything you write. The Anglo-Saxon words will set you free.

How do those Latin words do their strangling and suffocating? In general they are long, pompous nouns that end in -ion—like implementation and maximization and communication (five syllables long!)—or that end in -ent—like development and fulfillment. Those nouns express a vague concept or an abstract idea, not a specific action that we can picture—somebody doing something. Here’s a typical sentence: “Prior to the implementation of the financial enhancement.” That means “Before we fixed our money problems.”
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on February 11, 2010, 09:22:01 AM
This (http://www.theamericanscholar.org/writing-english-as-a-second-language/) is great. And don't be put off by the title - it's for anyone who writes, not just those whose second language is English.

Quote
The English language is derived from two main sources. One is Latin, the florid language of ancient Rome. The other is Anglo-Saxon, the plain languages of England and northern Europe. The words derived from Latin are the enemy—they will strangle and suffocate everything you write. The Anglo-Saxon words will set you free.

How do those Latin words do their strangling and suffocating? In general they are long, pompous nouns that end in -ion—like implementation and maximization and communication (five syllables long!)—or that end in -ent—like development and fulfillment. Those nouns express a vague concept or an abstract idea, not a specific action that we can picture—somebody doing something. Here’s a typical sentence: “Prior to the implementation of the financial enhancement.” That means “Before we fixed our money problems.”


Good read, thanks oad.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on February 11, 2010, 03:12:47 PM
This (http://www.theamericanscholar.org/writing-english-as-a-second-language/) is great. And don't be put off by the title - it's for anyone who writes, not just those whose second language is English.

I love William Zissner - I have his book - On Writing Well.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 11, 2010, 03:20:43 PM
This (http://www.theamericanscholar.org/writing-english-as-a-second-language/) is great. And don't be put off by the title - it's for anyone who writes, not just those whose second language is English.

I love William Zissner - I have his book - On Writing Well.
Yes! I need to locate my copy of that.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on February 21, 2010, 09:30:28 PM
I believe we shall become fast friends :)

Listen people, this is how it's done. The use of shall when using the first person. Well done ferris.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on February 22, 2010, 11:20:32 AM
Is "Each care decays" alliterative? My heart says no...
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Emiliana on February 22, 2010, 12:18:30 PM
Is "Each care decays" alliterative? My heart says no...

I would agree with your heart, but I think that if you wanted to, you could interpret it as consonance and/or assonance.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on February 22, 2010, 12:25:15 PM
But that would be counter to my argument, so I'm gonna agree with you and my heart. Screw assonance.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on February 23, 2010, 10:20:14 AM
In A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, is Stephen's name pronounced with the f or the v sound?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on February 23, 2010, 10:30:24 AM
In A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, is Stephen's name pronounced with the f or the v sound?

try it aloud in you best irish accent and see which sounds better.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on February 23, 2010, 02:08:38 PM
Non-Sequiter

Maybe the most commonly misspelled thing on the forums, percentage-wise.  @fakeapstylebook frowns at you!

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on February 26, 2010, 01:18:12 PM
Pop quiz: Is it "baited breath" or "bated breath"?

No cheating.  Curious to see who knows this off the top of their head (unlike, say, J.K. Rowling and her copy editors).

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 26, 2010, 02:00:14 PM
Pop quiz: Is it "baited breath" or "bated breath"?

No cheating.  Curious to see who knows this off the top of their head (unlike, say, J.K. Rowling and her copy editors).

pixote
I don't know for sure, but I'd guess "bated." "Baited" doesn't make any sense, and "bated" is probably related to "abated"?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: StarCarly on February 26, 2010, 04:04:54 PM
I've always pictured it as "bated."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on February 26, 2010, 04:06:19 PM
I'd make a guess but I'm not even sure what the phrase means. I've heard it plenty of times though.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Melvil on February 26, 2010, 04:50:31 PM
I'd make a guess but I'm not even sure what the phrase means. I've heard it plenty of times though.

"I'm waiting with bated breath". I've always took it to mean something close to "anxiously".

Yeah, imma go with bated.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: worm@work on February 26, 2010, 04:57:39 PM
I've always thought of it as "bated" and assumed it's related to abated.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on February 26, 2010, 05:25:53 PM
Everybody's a winner! ... except the children:

Quote from: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
The whole common room listened with baited breath.

Fun with grammar:

Quote from: Geoffrey Taylor, [i]Cruel, Clever Cat[/i]
Sally, having swallowed cheese
Directs down holes the scented breeze
Enticing thus with baited breath
Nice mice to an untimely death.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Zhankfor on February 26, 2010, 08:58:51 PM
Don't wanna go through all 37 pages of this thread... but does anyone here read Language Log (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/). It's a very good linguistics blog, and does wonders to dispel myths and rumours propagated by over-zealous and misinformed high school teachers.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on February 26, 2010, 11:16:15 PM
Or maybe you misunderstood the passage, pix. Had the characters been eating worms?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 27, 2010, 12:13:10 PM
Don't wanna go through all 37 pages of this thread... but does anyone here read Language Log (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/). It's a very good linguistics blog, and does wonders to dispel myths and rumours propagated by over-zealous and misinformed high school teachers.
This is great. Thanks for the link!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on March 03, 2010, 10:12:14 PM
I've always thought the phrase was "deep-seated" not "deep-seeded," but I've seen the latter pretty frequently of late (and right now in a student paper), so I was beginning to doubt my instinct. Curious to see how many of you know which is correct off the top of your heads - no cheating. :)

(Incidentally, while I was looking up the right answer, I discovered all kinds of fun stuff, like the plural of "oxymoron" and the word that describes redundancies like "PIN number."  Bonus points for anyone who knows those!)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: roujin on March 03, 2010, 10:18:53 PM
I've always used "deep-seated" though I've also doubted it before.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on March 03, 2010, 10:23:43 PM
I thought it was deep-seeded as in deeply planted and hard to kill.

"His hate was deep-seeded."


I have no idea but my girlfriend says oxymorai?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on March 03, 2010, 10:24:01 PM
I've always used "deep-seated" though I've also doubted it before.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Colleen on March 03, 2010, 10:39:31 PM
I've always used "deep-seated" though I've also doubted it before.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Melvil on March 03, 2010, 11:14:24 PM
I though it was "seeded", although both make sense on the metaphor level, I suppose.

describes redundancies like "PIN number."

I've heard these referred to as recursive acronyms. Is there another term for it?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on March 03, 2010, 11:44:51 PM
describes redundancies like "PIN number."

I've heard these referred to as recursive acronyms. Is there another term for it?
That's not the term I've got.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on March 03, 2010, 11:55:00 PM
I thought it was deep-seeded as in deeply planted and hard to kill.
"His hate was deep-seeded."
It's that kind of logical thinking that gets people in trouble with 'tow the line', when it should be 'toe the line'.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on March 03, 2010, 11:59:16 PM
always gone with the -eed- though i'm usually wrong about these things.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: StarCarly on March 04, 2010, 12:15:24 AM
I've always used "deep-seated" though I've also doubted it before.


Also...
There's a Seinfeld episode called "The Secret Code" or something. It's about George's PIN. I always wondered if they purposely avoided using the phrase PIN number on purpose.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on March 04, 2010, 12:16:29 AM
Bosco!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: worm@work on March 04, 2010, 06:53:38 AM
I've always used deep-seated but am doubting myself now.
describes redundancies like "PIN number."

Is the term specific to when this occurs with an acronym? I've heard of pleonasms which I think refers to the use of redundant words in general (e.g. close proximity) and not necessarily an acronym followed by a redundant word.
Which reminds me that I still don't quite get the difference between pleonasms and tautologies.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on March 04, 2010, 09:56:24 AM
describes redundancies like "PIN number."

Is the term specific to when this occurs with an acronym? I've heard of pleonasms which I think refers to the use of redundant words in general (e.g. close proximity) and not necessarily an acronym followed by a redundant word.
Which reminds me that I still don't quite get the difference between pleonasms and tautologies.
Yes, good on you, worm. :)  Here's what I've got:

"A pleonasm consists of two concepts (usually two words) that are redundant. What does "redundant" mean? Well, how about "more than enough; overabundant; excess; and superfluous"? Still having a problem understanding what pleonasm means? Some pleonastic expressions are also known as tautologies. Tautology means, "needless repetition of an idea in a different word, phrase, or sentence; redundancy; pleonasm." What about pleonasm? It means, "the use of more words than are necessary for the expression of an idea; redundancy." So it is that we go around in circles: pleonasm means tautology, which means redundancy, which means pleonasm, which means tautology, ad infinitum."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on March 04, 2010, 09:59:10 AM
I have deep-ceded fears.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on March 04, 2010, 09:59:55 AM
As to deep-seated vs. deep-seeded, here (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/deep.html) you go!  
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on March 04, 2010, 10:59:52 AM
As to deep-seated vs. deep-seeded, here (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/deep.html) you go!  

lies  ;)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on March 08, 2010, 06:12:10 PM
What's the point of luncheon?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on March 08, 2010, 06:15:26 PM
What's the point of pixote?

Nah, it was shortened to lunch later. I usually associate it as a lunch that includes a group of people, a meeting or something like that. I don't know.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on March 08, 2010, 06:22:06 PM
Nah, it was shortened to lunch later. I usually associate it as a lunch that includes a group of people, a meeting or something like that. I don't know.

I associate with spam and other fancy luncheon meats.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Colleen on March 08, 2010, 07:42:15 PM
Nah, it was shortened to lunch later. I usually associate it as a lunch that includes a group of people, a meeting or something like that. I don't know.

I associate with spam and other fancy luncheon meats.

pixote

And sausages imported from Vienna.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: StarCarly on March 08, 2010, 09:04:40 PM
The last time I checked, the letter "H" is a consonant. Also, I pronounce the sound of the H when I say the word "history" (unlike, say, the word "hour"). So why do people say "an historical occasion"?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Colleen on March 08, 2010, 09:08:31 PM
possible reasons:

1) "an historical" flows better than "a historical"

2) prevents confusion between "a historical" and "ahistorical" in spoken terms

3) it was formulated in England, where some dialects drop the "h" sound

4) people formalizing grammar thought it sounded fancier (not kidding, a lot of "proper usage" was decided on this basis)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on March 08, 2010, 09:31:24 PM
The last time I checked, the letter "H" is a consonant. Also, I pronounce the sound of the H when I say the word "history" (unlike, say, the word "hour"). So why do people say "an historical occasion"?
Maybe Grammar Girl (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/a-versus-an.aspx) can help with that.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on March 08, 2010, 09:38:33 PM
The last time I checked, the letter "H" is a consonant. Also, I pronounce the sound of the H when I say the word "history" (unlike, say, the word "hour"). So why do people say "an historical occasion"?
When I read it, I drop the h in my mind, just because of the an. Actually, it's more like I make a contraction out of the two words like you do with some combinations of Spanish words. Anistorical. Estascuelas, instead of estas escuelas.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: StarCarly on March 08, 2010, 11:14:06 PM
The last time I checked, the letter "H" is a consonant. Also, I pronounce the sound of the H when I say the word "history" (unlike, say, the word "hour"). So why do people say "an historical occasion"?
Maybe Grammar Girl (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/a-versus-an.aspx) can help with that.

She tells me that I am right, and it should be "A historic moment" in American speech and writing. That link is interesting because I had never considered the fact that we say "a one-track mind" and "an MBA." Interesting.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: worm@work on March 08, 2010, 11:15:20 PM
As to deep-seated vs. deep-seeded, here (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/deep.html) you go!  

Along the same lines, I ended up having a discussion with someone today about whether the right phrase is "just deserts" or "just desserts".
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Melvil on March 09, 2010, 12:07:17 AM
As to deep-seated vs. deep-seeded, here (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/deep.html) you go!  

Along the same lines, I ended up having a discussion with someone today about whether the right phrase is "just deserts" or "just desserts".

I don't think I know that one (either version). Can you use it in an example?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: worm@work on March 09, 2010, 07:06:01 AM
As to deep-seated vs. deep-seeded, here (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/deep.html) you go!  

Along the same lines, I ended up having a discussion with someone today about whether the right phrase is "just deserts" or "just desserts".

I don't think I know that one (either version). Can you use it in an example?

It's usually used to imply that someone got what they deserved. e.g. The teacher handed the student his just de(s)serts by giving him an F on the paper.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on March 09, 2010, 09:25:12 AM
i've always heard it pronounced like the milkshake and not the mojave.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Melvil on March 09, 2010, 09:40:17 AM
As to deep-seated vs. deep-seeded, here (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/deep.html) you go!  

Along the same lines, I ended up having a discussion with someone today about whether the right phrase is "just deserts" or "just desserts".

I don't think I know that one (either version). Can you use it in an example?

It's usually used to imply that someone got what they deserved. e.g. The teacher handed the student his just de(s)serts by giving him an F on the paper.

Ah, okay, thanks. It does seem somewhat familiar in context.

My guess would be with Keith on the milkshake.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FifthCityMuse on March 10, 2010, 06:49:17 PM
There's no "d" in refrigerator. Which I really should've known before yesterday.

I have a T-shirt with the following printed on it:

"Haikus are easy
But sometimes they don't make sense
Refrigerator"

I've had it for over 12 months and never noticed. I'd always assumed because Fridge has a "d", so would refrigerator.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on March 24, 2010, 09:52:08 AM
Here's a good index of Common Errors in English Usage (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html).

Quote
GUT-WRENCHING, HEART-RENDING

To wrench is to twist, to rend is to tear. Upsetting events can be stomach- or gut-wrenching (agonizing) or heart-rending (heartbreaking, making you feel terribly sad); but many people confuse the two and come up with “heart-wrenching.” “Gut-rending” is also occasionally seen.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Zhankfor on March 24, 2010, 10:06:07 AM
And I will point again to Language Log, where much time is spent debunking arbitrary distinctions like that one.

Language Log (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: worm@work on March 24, 2010, 10:08:53 AM
Here's a good index of Common Errors in English Usage (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html).

Quote
GUT-WRENCHING, HEART-RENDING

To wrench is to twist, to rend is to tear. Upsetting events can be stomach- or gut-wrenching (agonizing) or heart-rending (heartbreaking, making you feel terribly sad); but many people confuse the two and come up with “heart-wrenching.” “Gut-rending” is also occasionally seen.


nice link, 'noff :). I've had so many students use 'along the same vein' in their papers and it always bothers me.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on March 24, 2010, 10:28:51 AM
Here's a good index of Common Errors in English Usage (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html).

Quote
GUT-WRENCHING, HEART-RENDING

To wrench is to twist, to rend is to tear. Upsetting events can be stomach- or gut-wrenching (agonizing) or heart-rending (heartbreaking, making you feel terribly sad); but many people confuse the two and come up with “heart-wrenching.” “Gut-rending” is also occasionally seen.


nice link, 'noff :). I've had so many students use 'along the same vein' in their papers and it always bothers me.

that seems false to me - something can indeed be heart-wrenching (agonizing to the heart) though i would assume only a full meal at Fat Burger would be gut-rending.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on April 01, 2010, 06:38:51 PM
Robert Siegel on NPR today, in reference to a story on North Korea, said, "The media are state-controlled."

I would have said, "The media is . . ." and treated "media" as a collective noun (eg. The committee is making a decision; the choir is singing an oratorio) rather than a plural noun (people are weird).

I guess "media" is the plural of "medium," so should I always treat it like a plural noun and use "are"? Or is "media" in some cases a collective noun?  ??
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ses on April 01, 2010, 06:47:07 PM
Robert Siegel on NPR today, in reference to a story on North Korea, said, "The media are state-controlled."

I would have said, "The media is . . ." and treated "media" as a collective noun (eg. The committee is making a decision; the choir is singing an oratorio) rather than a plural noun (people are weird).

I guess "media" is the plural of "medium," so should I always treat it like a plural noun and use "are"? Or is "media" in some cases a collective noun?  ??


I thought media is supposed to be treated as a plural noun, kind of like bacteria is the plural of bacterium.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on April 01, 2010, 06:51:46 PM
Robert Siegel on NPR today, in reference to a story on North Korea, said, "The media are state-controlled."

I would have said, "The media is . . ." and treated "media" as a collective noun (eg. The committee is making a decision; the choir is singing an oratorio) rather than a plural noun (people are weird).

I guess "media" is the plural of "medium," so should I always treat it like a plural noun and use "are"? Or is "media" in some cases a collective noun?  ??


I thought media is supposed to be treated as a plural noun, kind of like bacteria is the plural of bacterium.
Most people, or at least many people, say "media is," don't they?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ses on April 01, 2010, 06:56:33 PM
Robert Siegel on NPR today, in reference to a story on North Korea, said, "The media are state-controlled."

I would have said, "The media is . . ." and treated "media" as a collective noun (eg. The committee is making a decision; the choir is singing an oratorio) rather than a plural noun (people are weird).

I guess "media" is the plural of "medium," so should I always treat it like a plural noun and use "are"? Or is "media" in some cases a collective noun?  ??


I thought media is supposed to be treated as a plural noun, kind of like bacteria is the plural of bacterium.
Most people, or at least many people, say "media is," don't they?

I think that is true, but I don't think it is correct. When referring to "the media", I think that it commonly seen as a single entity, so maybe that is why most people say "The media is", but you wouldn't say "Media is", you would say "Media are".
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on April 01, 2010, 07:07:31 PM
Robert Siegel on NPR today, in reference to a story on North Korea, said, "The media are state-controlled."

I would have said, "The media is . . ." and treated "media" as a collective noun (eg. The committee is making a decision; the choir is singing an oratorio) rather than a plural noun (people are weird).

I guess "media" is the plural of "medium," so should I always treat it like a plural noun and use "are"? Or is "media" in some cases a collective noun?  ??


I thought media is supposed to be treated as a plural noun, kind of like bacteria is the plural of bacterium.
Most people, or at least many people, say "media is," don't they?

I think that is true, but I don't think it is correct. When referring to "the media", I think that it commonly seen as a single entity, so maybe that is why most people say "The media is", but you wouldn't say "Media is", you would say "Media are".
Makes sense. I'm going to be more conscious of this now and probably drive my friends crazy. :)

Here's one blog/article (http://freelancewritinggigs.com/grammar/?p=240&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+GrammarGuide+(FWJ+-+Grammar+Guide)) about the usage that I found helpful.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FLYmeatwad on April 01, 2010, 08:20:21 PM
Doesn't go here, but didn't know where to post it, so what ever. Do you people, collectively or inidivdually, believe that Ginsberg's "Howl"'s aesthetic and rhetorical choices raise questions of marginalization in terms of race, gender, sexuality, socio-economic status or political affiliation. Not all, perhaps, but at least one or more? I am whittling down poems to use for part of my content exam and this one seems fitting, and non-generic.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 'Noke on April 01, 2010, 08:26:22 PM
Doesn't go here, but didn't know where to post it, so what ever. Do you people, collectively or inidivdually, believe that Ginsberg's "Howl"'s aesthetic and rhetorical choices raise questions of marginalization in terms of race, gender, sexuality, socio-economic status or political affiliation. Not all, perhaps, but at least one or more? I am whittling down poems to use for part of my content exam and this one seems fitting, and non-generic.

I haven't read it.

You should start a poetry thread.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FLYmeatwad on April 01, 2010, 08:27:02 PM
Doesn't go here, but didn't know where to post it, so what ever. Do you people, collectively or inidivdually, believe that Ginsberg's "Howl"'s aesthetic and rhetorical choices raise questions of marginalization in terms of race, gender, sexuality, socio-economic status or political affiliation. Not all, perhaps, but at least one or more? I am whittling down poems to use for part of my content exam and this one seems fitting, and non-generic.

I haven't read it.

You should start a poetry thread.

Indeed, though there may be one already.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on April 02, 2010, 02:43:02 PM
Pop quiz time again.

1) Hold your peace.
2) Say your peace.
3) Hold your piece.
4) Say your piece.

Which two are correct?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 'Noke on April 02, 2010, 02:46:08 PM
1) Hold your peace.
4) Say your piece.

I think.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on April 02, 2010, 02:47:56 PM
Doesn't go here, but didn't know where to post it, so what ever. Do you people, collectively or inidivdually, believe that Ginsberg's "Howl"'s aesthetic and rhetorical choices raise questions of marginalization in terms of race, gender, sexuality, socio-economic status or political affiliation. Not all, perhaps, but at least one or more? I am whittling down poems to use for part of my content exam and this one seems fitting, and non-generic.

yes.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FLYmeatwad on April 02, 2010, 02:56:56 PM
Excellent, I actually started the outline a bit ago anyhow. I'll talk about class, race, and sexuality probably. The aesthetic choices should be easy, the whole idea of howling mirroring the poem's style, and Ginsberg asks a bunch of questions with all his allusions and stuff.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on April 02, 2010, 03:24:37 PM
Pop quiz time again.

1) Hold your peace.
2) Say your peace.
3) Hold your piece.
4) Say your piece.

Which two are correct?

pixote

I figured it was 'peace' in both cases.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FLYmeatwad on April 02, 2010, 06:39:14 PM
I have come around, a good deal more, but not enough to call it better than any of the Disney bests, on iCarly. But they just, all the characters at once, called it "a scissors." Is this accepted anywhere? I thought one wants to borrow "a pair of scissors," but not "a scissors."

EDIT: And now he went inside and yelled, "They're just scissors," which makes me think that one does not naturally say "a scissors," correct?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on April 02, 2010, 06:53:26 PM
1) Hold your peace.
4) Say your piece.
I think.
Correct! (or so I'm told (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/hold.html)).

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on April 07, 2010, 05:48:42 PM
How not to do it:

I need to start a "Rewatching Classics: Why am I the only one who thinked it sucked?" marathon
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on April 08, 2010, 07:59:22 PM
He’s all silent and mysterious and doesn’t seemed phased by Tatsuo’s situation...

I'm psyched to see someone else write phased for fazed.  I thought it was just me.  And phased makes perfect sense, dammit (just like "for all intensive purposes", lol).

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on April 08, 2010, 09:29:52 PM
I really love the phrase "tilting at windmills" but I haven't found a situation to use it in for quite a while.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: StarCarly on April 08, 2010, 09:35:23 PM
He’s all silent and mysterious and doesn’t seemed phased by Tatsuo’s situation...

I'm psyched to see someone else write phased for fazed.  I thought it was just me.  And phased makes perfect sense, dammit (just like "for all intensive purposes", lol).

pixote
:o I though I was the only one who said "intensive" purposes!! When I saw it in writing for the first time it shook my whole world view.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on April 08, 2010, 10:48:20 PM
I really love the phrase "tilting at windmills" but I haven't found a situation to use it in for quite a while.

had to look that up, totes gonna use that at some point.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Melvil on April 08, 2010, 10:55:02 PM
I've heard "[something] at windmills" used before, but tilting adds an extra bit of obscurity that I rather like.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on April 09, 2010, 03:13:59 AM
Now go read Don Quixote!  It's the bee's knees!

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Melvil on April 09, 2010, 12:08:48 PM
Oh, I've totes read it.

(did I do that right?)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: tinyholidays on April 09, 2010, 01:00:25 PM
Now go read Don Quixote!  It's the bee's knees!

pixote

It really is.

Oh, I've totes read it.

(did I do that right?)

I'm really not sure how to do it wrong.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on April 13, 2010, 01:47:15 PM
6. Bringing up Baby

That can't be right.  It just can't!

I haven't gone back to check those title capitalization rules, but is there one that makes an exception for a prepositional word like "up" when it's part of a verb ("to bring up")?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on April 13, 2010, 01:50:20 PM
2. Capitalize all nouns, pronouns, adjectives, verbs, adverbs, and subordinate conjunctions ("as", "because", "although").

What's a subordinate conjunction again?  I'm hoping my loophole is here somewhere.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: tinyholidays on April 13, 2010, 02:02:59 PM
6. Bringing up Baby

That can't be right.  It just can't!

I haven't gone back to check those title capitalization rules, but is there one that makes an exception for a prepositional word like "up" when it's part of a verb ("to bring up")?

pixote

Hm. I usually just go by what the filmmakers/studio decided to do. IMDb has it as Bringing Up Baby. I looked at original posters, and they have the title in all caps, so it avoids the issue. Then there are these:

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d171/flourish_leslie/movies/BringingupBaby.jpg)

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d171/flourish_leslie/movies/Poster20-20Bringing20Up20Baby_041.jpg)

So, I'd say oad is right on, despite it looking weird.

However, with more modern films, you get other choices made:

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d171/flourish_leslie/movies/plutostate3030347061676530303757656.jpg)

Standard rules do not apply.

So, you're right too, pixote?

Idk. I just look up posters. /nerd
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on April 13, 2010, 02:32:56 PM
2. Capitalize all nouns, pronouns, adjectives, verbs, adverbs, and subordinate conjunctions ("as", "because", "although").

What's a subordinate conjunction again?  I'm hoping my loophole is here somewhere.

pixote
This is how I describe a subordinate conjunction: a word (or phrase, too, I think) that joins two parts of a sentence that are unequal. I find it helpful to distinguish the subordinate conjunctions from the coordinating conjunctions (but, or, yet, so, for, and, nor) which ("which" or "that"? argh, I can never remember the rule) join parts of a sentence that are equal (eg. two subjects, Anna and Kara love movies; two independent clauses Anna loves movies, but Kara loves opera, etc.). If you replace the coordinating conjunction "but" with a subordinate conjunction - eg. Anna loves movies whereas Kara loves opera - one of the clauses, the latter, becomes subordinate to the other - one is an independent clause, one is dependent - unequal.

I don't think "up" is ever a subordinate conjunction? Always a preposition, I think.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on April 13, 2010, 02:34:56 PM
I don't think "up" is ever a subordinate conjunction? Always a preposition, I think.

It's not being used prepositionally there, though, is it?  It's part of a verb phrase.  Pretty please?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on April 13, 2010, 07:22:29 PM
"Up" is an adverb because it answers the question where, as in bringing...bringing where?  up

Adverbs answer the questions where, when, why and how, how often, (more I can't recall).

 
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on April 13, 2010, 09:14:10 PM
Alot. (http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on April 13, 2010, 10:40:19 PM
I don't think "up" is ever a subordinate conjunction? Always a preposition, I think.

It's not being used prepositionally there, though, is it?  It's part of a verb phrase.  Pretty please?

pixote
Sigh. I'm a moron. It's sometimes a preposition (He ran up the hill), sometimes an adverb (Bringing up Baby), sometimes an adjective (The Dow is up). Don't know why I was thinking of it only as a preposition when the adverb was staring me in the face.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on April 13, 2010, 11:26:14 PM
So... Bringing Up Baby then?  :)

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on April 13, 2010, 11:47:06 PM
So... Bringing Up Baby then?  :)

pixote

if you were still friends with Jesus on facebook you wouldn't have to be trolling for answers here.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on April 13, 2010, 11:48:38 PM
if you were still friends with Jesus on facebook you would have to be trolling for answers here.

Nice.  8)

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on April 13, 2010, 11:51:52 PM
So... Bringing Up Baby then?  :)

pixote
Nice.  :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on April 14, 2010, 03:52:24 PM
I've lately taken to using mono as a verb, adjective, and adverb.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: tinyholidays on April 14, 2010, 04:12:20 PM
I've lately taken to using mono as a verb, adjective, and adverb.

pixote

I might need an adverb example.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on April 14, 2010, 04:26:44 PM
"How you play?"
"Ehh... I played mono."
"I told you you need to get more rest!"

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on April 20, 2010, 10:54:34 PM
Ok I am catching some crap in this article I am writing.

Which is correct.

according to Sally, "the end is near".

according to Sally, "the end is near."

"." or "".
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on April 20, 2010, 10:56:47 PM
Ok I am catching some crap in this article I am writing.

Which is correct.


according to Sally, "the end is near."

"."
That one.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on April 20, 2010, 10:57:25 PM
punctuation is always inside quotation marks. Unless you are using some bullcrap style that says otherwise.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on April 20, 2010, 11:01:04 PM
Ok I am catching some crap in this article I am writing.

Which is correct.


according to Sally, "the end is near."

"."
That one.

Dammit now I own my girlfriend something pretty. I should know by now to not bet against her!

Thanks OAD and Sam.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: tinyholidays on April 20, 2010, 11:07:08 PM
punctuation is always inside quotation marks. Unless you are using some bullcrap style that says otherwise.

Actually, this depends on which country you live in. In the US, punctuation is always inside the quotation marks, yes. In the UK/Australia, not necessarily so.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on April 20, 2010, 11:12:01 PM
punctuation is always inside quotation marks. Unless you are using some bullcrap style that says otherwise.
'cept if the punctuation is a semicolon or a colon - those go outside the quote marks. :) See Purdue's OWL website (http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/577/03/).

Or unless you're using MLA format in-text citations (eg. Taylor writes, "the end is near" (165).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on April 20, 2010, 11:14:33 PM
punctuation is always inside quotation marks. Unless you are using some bullcrap style that says otherwise.
'cept if the punctuation is a semicolon or a colon - those go outside the quote marks. :) See Purdue's OWL website (http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/577/03/).

Or unless you're using MLA format in-text citations (eg. Taylor writes, "the end is near" (165).
Yea, I was wondering about this right after I posted.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on April 20, 2010, 11:58:26 PM
Ok I am catching some crap in this article I am writing.

Which is correct.

according to Sally, "the end is near".

according to Sally, "the end is near."

"." or "".

Period inside the quotation mark.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: chardy999 on April 21, 2010, 06:43:14 AM
punctuation is always inside quotation marks. Unless you are using some bullcrap style that says otherwise.

Actually, this depends on which country you live in. In the US, punctuation is always inside the quotation marks, yes. In the UK/Australia, not necessarily so.

I've never seen the full stop outside the inverted commas in Australia. Seems a bizarre sentence construction to begin a list (colon) after a quoted passage too.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: tinyholidays on April 21, 2010, 07:39:23 AM
punctuation is always inside quotation marks. Unless you are using some bullcrap style that says otherwise.

Actually, this depends on which country you live in. In the US, punctuation is always inside the quotation marks, yes. In the UK/Australia, not necessarily so.

I've never seen the full stop outside the inverted commas in Australia. Seems a bizarre sentence construction to begin a list (colon) after a quoted passage too.

Hmm. It's my understanding that, unless instructed to follow another style guide, Australians generally followed the UK rules. In the UK, a full stop occurs outside of the inverted commas, unless the quote is a fully set off sentence. Please excuse the following inane example.  Ex:  I decided to speak. 'I love you, Henry.' (vs) I decided to speak. I said, 'I love you, Henry'.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on April 21, 2010, 11:37:32 AM
Periods and commas go inside; colons and semi-colons go outside; and question marks and exclamation points go inside or outside, depending on whether or not they are part of the quotation.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on April 21, 2010, 11:47:27 AM
the full stop ... the inverted commas

What are these silly words?!!?!?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on April 21, 2010, 11:49:23 AM
the full stop ... the inverted commas

What are these silly words?!!?!?

blog buzz bands.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Emiliana on April 21, 2010, 12:56:23 PM
Periods and commas go inside; colons and semi-colons go outside; and question marks and exclamation points go inside or outside, depending on whether or not they are part of the quotation.

pixote

I had no idea that this was the way it is done in the US. We seem to be handling this like the British, i.e. all puntuation outside, unless it is an integral part of the quotation.

-> According to Sally, "the end is near". In circumstances like this, her advice is "RUN!"  :)

(If you say: According to Sally, "the end is near.", aren't you implying that Sally's sentence ended there, too? Could she have said "The end is near and we are all doomed"?  Sorry if all this punctuation is confusing!)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on April 21, 2010, 01:11:34 PM
(If you say: According to Sally, "the end is near.", aren't you implying that Sally's sentence ended there, too?
Yes.

Could she have said "The end is near, and we are all doomed"? 
And yes.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on April 21, 2010, 10:26:41 PM
Which is correct?

The context is I am saying they use poker as a simpler model for the real world.

"The random nature and hidden information in poker make it both difficult to solve and valuable as an analog to the real world."

"The random nature and hidden information in poker make it both difficult to solve and valuable as an analogy to the real world."

Analog or Analogy?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on April 21, 2010, 10:33:58 PM
Analog doesn't make sense to me, I think you want analogy. Or perhaps analogous, as in "...difficult to solve and analogous to the real world."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Melvil on April 22, 2010, 12:02:39 AM
In that context analog means having analogy, so I think it's basically the same thing.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on April 22, 2010, 12:05:49 AM
My thinking is it should be analog. Analogy is used in literary contexts, while analog is used in scientific contexts.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FifthCityMuse on April 22, 2010, 02:57:45 AM
I know this is dissenting, but I'd put the fullstop outside the quotation marks, as a rule. The exception is where the punctuation is a part of the quote. If I've ended a sentence with a quote, I'd put the fullstop outside. I'm not saying this is correct, but I prefer it wholly.

Similarly, if I put something in parentheses at the end of the sentence, the fullstop goes outside the parentheses, not inside. Only if I put the whole sentence in parentheses, do I put the fullstop inside. I've no idea how correct this is, but it seems more logical to me, and I prefer how it looks.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: chardy999 on April 22, 2010, 06:40:20 AM
Which is correct?

The context is I am saying they use poker as a simpler model for the real world.

"The random nature and hidden information in poker make it both difficult to solve and valuable as an analog to the real world."

"The random nature and hidden information in poker make it both difficult to solve and valuable as an analogy to the real world."

Analog or Analogy?

There are far more concerning things about this sentence than the grammar. ;)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on April 22, 2010, 09:12:58 AM
My thinking is it should be analog.

digital>analog.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on April 22, 2010, 11:06:34 AM
Similarly, if I put something in parentheses at the end of the sentence, the fullstop goes outside the parentheses, not inside. Only if I put the whole sentence in parentheses, do I put the fullstop inside. I've no idea how correct this is, but it seems more logical to me, and I prefer how it looks.

This part is very correct (I think).

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Emiliana on May 19, 2010, 10:59:51 AM
"She had come all the way from New York. More important, she was working with the police on this matter."


Can somebody please, please tell me that it should be "More importantLY"?

(Surely this can't have anything to do with the fact that the book is set around 1900? Sloppy editing? Wouldn't surprise me, it's a very trashy novel  :))
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on May 19, 2010, 11:59:28 AM
"She had come all the way from New York. More important, she was working with the police on this matter."


Can somebody please, please tell me that it should be "More importantLY"?

(Surely this can't have anything to do with the fact that the book is set around 1900? Sloppy editing? Wouldn't surprise me, it's a very trashy novel  :))

Yeah, it hurts my ears without the "ly" ... though I suppose a case could be made for "More important [than that]..." with the bracketed words being implied...?  Nah.

Actually, if the comma was a colon instead, I'd be okay with it.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Emiliana on May 19, 2010, 05:05:47 PM
Thank you pix. I had a simlar thought at the time and asked myself whether I was supposed to understand that "[But what was] more important, she...." was implied.

Hadn't thought about the colon thing - I guess it would work grammatically, but I would still find it grating...
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: chardy999 on May 20, 2010, 04:10:10 AM
Seeing she is doing something, a description of how she is doing it should be an adverb. The colon is barely passable as the 'list' contains only one item thereafter.

Horrid sentence in any case.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on May 21, 2010, 09:22:44 AM
seems halfalogue is a word.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on May 22, 2010, 10:26:49 AM
Speaking of adverbs/adjective confusion, I've always struggled with:

#1: How are you?

#2: Well.

v.

#2: Good.

#1 is not literally asking how #2 is doing something. #1 is asking about #2's state of being. The response, in my mind, calls for an adjective not an adverb. Good, not well.

But according too everybody well is correct.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on May 22, 2010, 11:47:10 AM
Speaking of adverbs/adjective confusion, I've always struggled with:

#1: How are you?

#2: Well.

v.

#2: Good.

#1 is not literally asking how #2 is doing something. #1 is asking about #2's state of being. The response, in my mind, calls for an adjective not an adverb. Good, not well.

But according too everybody well is correct.
Yes, I agree. The response should definitely be in adjective form. And "well" can be an adjective: 1. In a satisfactory condition; right or proper: eg. All is well. 2. Not ailing, infirm, or diseased; healthy. 

But my question is this: do people who answer "well," mean the adjective form of it? Or are they translating my question, "how are you?" to "how are you doing?"

On a related note, I find it really annoying when someone asks me the question first and I say "good," and then in response to my query, he or she says, "well." Pfft. Thanks, yes, you speak correctly, I'm an idiot.

Personally, I think we should all use "good."  I guess, literally, "good" doesn't make much sense - what are we saying, we're in a state of moral uprightness? But lots of casual exchanges/queries don't make literal sense, eg. "What's up?" "How's it going?" etc. I think the "well" advocates need to get over it and embrace a language shift.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on May 22, 2010, 12:09:55 PM
Personally, I think we should all use "good."  I guess, literally, "good" doesn't make much sense - what are we saying, we're in a state of moral uprightness? But lots of casual exchanges/queries don't make literal sense, eg. "What's up?" "How's it going?" etc. I think the "well" advocates need to get over it and embrace a language shift.
Good said.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on May 22, 2010, 12:11:23 PM
Personally, I think we should all use "good."  I guess, literally, "good" doesn't make much sense - what are we saying, we're in a state of moral uprightness? But lots of casual exchanges/queries don't make literal sense, eg. "What's up?" "How's it going?" etc. I think the "well" advocates need to get over it and embrace a language shift.
Good said.
:D
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on May 22, 2010, 12:15:26 PM
 ;)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on May 22, 2010, 07:41:03 PM
Yes, I agree. The response should definitely be in adjective form. And "well" can be an adjective: 1. In a satisfactory condition; right or proper: eg. All is well. 2. Not ailing, infirm, or diseased; healthy. 

Personally, I think we should all use "good."  I guess, literally, "good" doesn't make much sense - what are we saying, we're in a state of moral uprightness?
I knew you'd come up with a great explanation of why well is technically a better response. It's not that the response is the wrong form of speech; it's that of the definitions of the two words "well" is more correct. Not that good is incorrect. Just that well be more correct.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on June 01, 2010, 10:54:51 AM
I really don't understand the phrase "try and" instead of "try to". Like, as I was watching Whale Wars, the guy said that they were gonna "try and stop the whalers" instead of "try to stop the whalers". The and just seems to work wrong for me.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on June 01, 2010, 02:52:53 PM
"try and" sounds like more of them there colloqialisms.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on June 01, 2010, 02:59:32 PM
I agree. But it also seems to be a coloqualism for the entire US. I've heard it in southern and northern and eastern and western and middle accents. It seems to be the prevalent form of the phrase on TV and such. I just don't like the way it sounds in my ears.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on June 01, 2010, 03:30:28 PM
I agree. But it also seems to be a coloqualism for the entire US. I've heard it in southern and northern and eastern and western and middle accents. It seems to be the prevalent form of the phrase on TV and such. I just don't like the way it sounds in my ears.

also "Try'n" rolls off the tounge a whole lot smoother than the double hard T of the high-english option.  Language is physics.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on June 01, 2010, 05:17:29 PM
I definitely say Try'n.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on June 01, 2010, 06:55:11 PM
I have a country (pronounced COOOWNtry) friend that is always saying she is going to "take and -". She's gonna take and buy Matthew (her son) some bluejeans. She's gonna take and go to the movies. She's gonna take and see if they got some o'that French onion soup they make at the La Madeleine's.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on June 01, 2010, 07:04:08 PM
AAAHHHHHH! Tell her she's crazy.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on June 02, 2010, 09:49:17 AM
(http://www.shoeboxblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/intentional-typo-499x498.jpg)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on June 23, 2010, 09:00:46 PM
Anyone know the etymology of the phrase last call?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on June 24, 2010, 12:43:08 AM
the british say "last orders" i think no?

not really much of an etymology, it is what it is.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on July 12, 2010, 07:38:58 PM
twelfth

What a weird word.  All those consonants!

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on July 13, 2010, 10:15:02 AM
does one rack or wrack a nerve?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on July 13, 2010, 10:23:23 AM
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racking (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racking)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: tinyholidays on July 13, 2010, 10:52:31 AM
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d171/flourish_leslie/screencaps/nervewracking.jpg)

Adding extra letters is more fun!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on July 13, 2010, 11:09:09 AM
thats how the english created our language!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on July 13, 2010, 05:27:18 PM
I thought it was possible to get ahold of something. I was wrong. :-\
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: IDrinkYourMilkshake on July 20, 2010, 06:14:53 PM
I love that this forum has a grammar thread.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on July 22, 2010, 12:54:26 AM
I've never thought about it before, but the origin of the phrase "riding shotgun" is so obvious, isn't it?
(http://i31.tinypic.com/20zaa78.jpg)


Sheez, I'm dumb. (Stagecoach has been enlightening though! ;D )
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on July 22, 2010, 10:45:14 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on July 22, 2010, 01:09:23 PM
People don't get that expression?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Emiliana on July 22, 2010, 01:13:21 PM
People don't get that expression?

Yes, for example people whose first language isn't English, and who didn't grow up with Westerns, i.e. people like me. I needed oad's post to point the connection out to me. And I think it's awesome.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on July 22, 2010, 01:29:45 PM
English is my first language and it never occurred to me.

Awesome post, OAD.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: roujin on July 22, 2010, 02:01:43 PM
Yes, for example people whose first language isn't English, and who didn't grow up with Westerns, i.e. people like me.

It seems kind of obvious now...
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on July 22, 2010, 02:14:33 PM
To go with a different saying involving shotguns, I believe shotgun wedding gets its name because the bride's father is holding a shotgun to the groom to make sure he goes through with it (since she is with his child), but I could be mistaken.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on July 22, 2010, 02:27:24 PM
No, that's the correct understanding of the phrase.  ;)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on July 22, 2010, 03:10:25 PM
People don't get that expression?
I didn't. :(  And it always kind of vaguely annoyed me. I kind of love it now! ;D


Yes, for example people whose first language isn't English, and who didn't grow up with Westerns, i.e. people like me. I needed oad's post to point the connection out to me. And I think it's awesome.
Awesome post, OAD.
Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on July 22, 2010, 04:00:56 PM
Wow, I never considered that one before. Very cool.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on July 24, 2010, 12:45:02 AM
I actually knew this...

(both shotgun phrases) :P
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on August 05, 2010, 08:59:39 AM
Yesterday at the Rockies game the woman sitting next to us nudged my husband and said, "I really like this batter. He's ambiguous."
When John looked puzzled, she explained, "You know, he can bat with either hand."

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on August 05, 2010, 09:04:40 AM
Yesterday at the Rockies game the woman sitting next to us nudged my husband and said, "I really like this batter. He's ambiguous."
When John looked puzzled, she explained, "You know, he can bat with either hand."



Ha! That's funny. Ambiguous...classic woman sitting next to John.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: chardy999 on August 05, 2010, 09:19:21 AM
Gotta pay that!


Oh... the other day I realised how we say "under water" when we really mean "in water."

We are certainly under the surface of the water but when you are "under water" you are actually surrounded on all sides by the liquid and are, hence, in it.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 05, 2010, 11:10:00 AM
Yesterday at the Rockies game the woman sitting next to us nudged my husband and said, "I really like this batter. He's ambiguous."
When John looked puzzled, she explained, "You know, he can bat with either hand."
:D


Oh... the other day I realised how we say "under water" when we really mean "in water."

We are certainly under the surface of the water but when you are "under water" you are actually surrounded on all sides by the liquid and are, hence, in it.
Crazy prepositions. I love 'em.  Another example, why do we get in a car but on a bus?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on August 05, 2010, 01:20:00 PM
And can somebody explain to me the in/on line debacle?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on August 05, 2010, 11:21:59 PM
And can somebody explain to me the in/on line debacle?

one involves an outdated mode of transport on venice beach, the other - tubes.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on August 07, 2010, 11:04:11 AM
And can somebody explain to me the in/on line debacle?

one involves an outdated mode of transport on venice beach, the other - tubes.
"Outmoded"? How dare you, sir? Next you'll say these acid-washed jeans I'm wearing are "outmoded"! I challenge you to a dual with a slap to the face with this white, sequined glove.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on August 09, 2010, 12:25:13 AM
And can somebody explain to me the in/on line debacle?

one involves an outdated mode of transport on venice beach, the other - tubes.
"Outmoded"? How dare you, sir? Next you'll say these acid-washed jeans I'm wearing are "outmoded"! I challenge you to a dual with a slap to the face with this white, sequined glove.

Frankie says update yr wardrobe.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on August 11, 2010, 02:00:41 PM
You all probably know this word, but I recently discovered it and I love it.  We should try to use it often around here!

cineaste

1. A film or movie enthusiast.
2. A person involved in filmmaking.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Emiliana on August 11, 2010, 03:38:59 PM
You all probably know this word, but I recently discovered it and I love it.  We should try to use it often around here!

cineaste

1. A film or movie enthusiast.
2. A person involved in filmmaking.


I often use that word in German, but I didn't know it also exists in English. Good to have an alternative to 'cinephile'.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on August 12, 2010, 05:12:44 PM
Which is correct?

He holes up in a small town, avoiding the police.

or

He holds up in a small town, avoiding the police.


Not meant to be a trick question; I don't know which is correct.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 12, 2010, 05:33:10 PM
Which is correct?

He holes up in a small town, avoiding the police.

or

He holds up in a small town, avoiding the police.


Not meant to be a trick question; I don't know which is correct.

I've always thought it was "holes up," as in someone hiding in a hole, a burrow? But now I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: worm@work on August 12, 2010, 05:36:22 PM
Which is correct?

He holes up in a small town, avoiding the police.

or

He holds up in a small town, avoiding the police.


Not meant to be a trick question; I don't know which is correct.

I've always thought it was "holes up," as in someone hiding in a hole, a burrow? But now I'm not sure.

Same here. Always thought of it as "holes up". Don't have any evidence to support it though.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Mike Shutt on August 12, 2010, 05:50:41 PM
Which is correct?

He holes up in a small town, avoiding the police.

or

He holds up in a small town, avoiding the police.


Not meant to be a trick question; I don't know which is correct.

I'd go with "holds up"
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on August 12, 2010, 05:55:08 PM
Please to pay attention to the "verb phrases" (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hole+up) category
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on August 12, 2010, 06:10:02 PM
Please to pay attention to the "verb phrases" (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hole+up) category

That's a good source.  I guess it is holes up.  I always thought it was holds up until I saw it in print today, and it made me start to wonder.

Thanks, everyone!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on August 14, 2010, 11:40:55 AM
The difference between "ya", "yea", and "yeah".

Ya is a short a. Like Pa.

Yea is a long a. Like hooray.

Yeah is a short e and a short a combined.

Use the right one.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 22, 2010, 10:38:02 PM
At work on Friday, Uri used a dump trailer to get haul off some building materials. Here is one paragraph of the warning sign on the side of the trailer:

Quote
Being under a raised body can result in serious injury or death should the body unexpectedly descend. "Never" position yourself or allow others to position themselves under a "loaded" body. "Always" prop the "unloaded" body up using the body prop or body props supplied. "Remember" body props are to be used only on an "unloaded" body.


Lots of room for interpretation there.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on August 22, 2010, 11:47:32 PM
At work on Friday, Uri used a dump trailer to get haul off some building materials. Here is one paragraph of the warning sign on the side of the trailer:

Quote
Being under a raised body can result in serious injury or death should the body unexpectedly descend. "Never" position yourself or allow others to position themselves under a "loaded" body. "Always" prop the "unloaded" body up using the body prop or body props supplied. "Remember" body props are to be used only on an "unloaded" body.


Lots of room for interpretation there.

think that belongs in the QooC thread
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Adrienne on August 28, 2010, 03:47:35 PM
The difference between "ya", "yea", and "yeah".

Ya is a short a. Like Pa.

Yea is a long a. Like hooray.

Yeah is a short e and a short a combined.

Use the right one.

Now, I have to take issue with you here:

If Ya is like Pa, it's not a short a, it's a pure vowel, ar as in arm
Yea is not a long vowel, it's a diphthong, like the sound in day
Yeah is a short vowel, just e like in end

And yes, I said I was a pedant
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on August 29, 2010, 10:48:39 PM
Ok, all that's great. Just use the right one.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Adrienne on August 30, 2010, 07:24:42 AM
Yes

OK
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on August 30, 2010, 07:17:19 PM
The difference between "ya", "yea", and "yeah".

Ya is a short a. Like Pa.

Yea is a long a. Like hooray.

Yeah is a short e and a short a combined.

Use the right one.

Now, I have to take issue with you here:

If Ya is like Pa, it's not a short a, it's a pure vowel, ar as in arm
Yea is not a long vowel, it's a diphthong, like the sound in day
Yeah is a short vowel, just e like in end

And yes, I said I was a pedant

Maybe in the Queen's English but Junior was right for Americans, spot on actually - we colonials have adapted the language to suit our purposes here on the continent. ;D
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: tinyholidays on August 30, 2010, 09:15:09 PM
The difference between "ya", "yea", and "yeah".

Ya is a short a. Like Pa.

Yea is a long a. Like hooray.

Yeah is a short e and a short a combined.

Use the right one.

Now, I have to take issue with you here:

If Ya is like Pa, it's not a short a, it's a pure vowel, ar as in arm
Yea is not a long vowel, it's a diphthong, like the sound in day
Yeah is a short vowel, just e like in end

And yes, I said I was a pedant

Maybe in the Queen's English but Junior was right for Americans, spot on actually - we colonials have adapted the language to suit our purposes here on the continent. ;D

Actually, it's the English that have changed their pronunciation, as rounder vowels became more fashionable during (I think it was) the Regency.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Adrienne on August 31, 2010, 09:11:10 AM
Ah me. Britain and America, divided by a common language  :P
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Adrienne on September 01, 2010, 07:02:53 AM
Future Conditional. Listen. Discuss.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tjf52 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tjf52)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Emiliana on September 01, 2010, 09:47:10 AM
Future Conditional. Listen. Discuss.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tjf52 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tjf52)

Stephen Fry discusses the English language? How did I not know of the existence of this program? I don't have time now, but I'll listen when I get home tonight!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on September 01, 2010, 01:28:56 PM
Future Conditional. Listen. Discuss.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tjf52 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tjf52)

Stephen Fry discusses the English language? How did I not know of the existence of this program? I don't have time now, but I'll listen when I get home tonight as soon as I can!
Thanks for the link, Mosca!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Emiliana on September 13, 2010, 08:54:11 AM
misogynist vs. misogynistic - both these adjectives exist, right? What's the difference? Is there a difference (meaning, usage...)?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Adrienne on September 13, 2010, 12:00:00 PM
misogynist vs. misogynistic - both these adjectives exist, right? What's the difference? Is there a difference (meaning, usage...)?

I think the first is the noun isn't it? And the second the adjective?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on September 28, 2010, 09:08:09 AM
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Adrienne on September 28, 2010, 05:07:20 PM
(http://i994.photobucket.com/albums/af69/qtadbam/320px-Buffalo_sentence_1_parse_treesvg.png)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on October 15, 2010, 12:43:16 PM
Awesome:

Stephen Fry Kinetic Typography - Language (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY#ws)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on October 15, 2010, 01:11:48 PM
Awesome:

Stephen Fry Kinetic Typography - Language
Fantastic. (I wonder if Kermode's seen it. :)  )
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: chardy999 on October 15, 2010, 07:02:51 PM
Gotta love Stephen Fry.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on November 06, 2010, 06:29:24 PM
There's only one t in benefiting?! For reals?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on November 06, 2010, 06:44:49 PM
There's only one t in benefiting?! For reals?

pixote
Surely not.  ???

(Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/benefitting) says benefiting or benefitting is ok. Now both look wrong to me.)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 'Noke on November 06, 2010, 06:46:41 PM
bnftng. Duh.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Adrienne on November 07, 2010, 07:14:44 AM
Well, I always go with the Oxford Dict. and it says:

Do not double the final consonant when adding endings which begin with a vowel to a word which ends in a vowel plus a consonant, if the stress is not at the end of the word (as in target ): (benefits , benefiting , benefited ).

ALSO, North Americans are right when they spell words such as sympathise with a z, it's the 1st spelling choice. When I use it here though, people always go on at me that it's AMERICAN, so I have slipped out of the habit. So I shall go back to it. I will not be PATRONIZED!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on November 07, 2010, 07:55:30 AM
I like spelling things with an 's' instead of a 'z' because it makes it different. People don't get it.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on November 07, 2010, 08:59:31 AM
I insist on only spelling theatre like that. Apparently the AP convention is theater though. >:( I've also been known to through a little colour into my writing. It's not like either British spelling suddenly confuses an American reader to the meaning of the word. Which would seem to be the case with the s/z issue.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 'Noke on November 13, 2010, 08:40:46 AM
What is the difference between Effect and Affect?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FLYmeatwad on November 13, 2010, 08:46:42 AM
One is a verb and the other is a noun. Specifically, affect is a verb and effect is a noun. Something can affect you in a very shocking way, and that event can have a tremendous effect on your life.

Grammar Girl has a post about this (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/affect-versus-effect.aspx), including the exceptions.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on November 13, 2010, 12:53:29 PM
What is the difference between Effect and Affect?
Previous discussion #1 (http://www.filmspotting.net/forum/index.php?topic=2961.msg113232#msg113232) and previous discussion #2 (http://www.filmspotting.net/forum/index.php?topic=2961.msg367781#msg367781). :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on November 18, 2010, 06:55:58 PM
Just for fun.

Read this aloud carefully, or even better, aloud to someone else (it's not dirty, I promise):


Ladle Rat Rotten Hut

WANTS PAWN TERM DARE WORSTED LADLE GULL HOE LIFT wetter murder inner ladle cordage honor itch offer lodge, dock, florist. Disk ladle gull orphan worry Putty ladle rat cluck wetter ladle rat hut, an fur disk raisin pimple colder Ladle Rat Rotten Hut.

Wan moaning Ladle Rat Rotten Hut's murder colder inset.

"Ladle Rat Rotten Hut, heresy ladle basking winsome burden barter an shirker cockles. Tick disk ladle basking tutor cordage offer groin-murder hoe lifts honor udder site offer florist. Shaker lake! Dun stopper laundry wrote! Dun stopper peck floors! Dun daily-doily inner florist, an yonder nor sorghum-stenches, dun stopper torque wet strainersi"

"Hoe-cake, murder," resplendent Ladle Rat Rotten Hut, an tickle ladle basking an stuttered oft.

Honor wrote tutor cordage offer groin-murder, Ladle Rat Rotten Hut mitten anomalous woof.

"Wail, wail, wail!" set disk wicket woof, "Evanescent Ladle Rat Rotten Hut. Wares are putty ladle gull goring wizard ladle basking?"

"Armor goring tumor groin-murder's," reprisal ladle gull. "Grammar's seeking bet. Armor ticking arson burden barter an shirker cockles."

"0 hoe! Heifer gnats woke," setter wicket woof, butter taught tomb shelf, "Oil tickle shirt court tutor cordage offer groin-murder. Oil ketchup wetter letter, an den-- O bore!"

Soda wicket woof tucker shirt court, an whinny retched a cordage offer groin-murder, picked inner windrow, an sore debtor pore oil worming worse lion inner bet. Inner flesh, disk abdominal woof lipped honor bet, paunched honor pore oil worming, an garbled erupt. Den disk ratchet ammonol pot honor groin-murder's nut cup an gnat-gun, any curdled ope inner bet.

Inner ladle wile, Ladle Rat Rotten Hut a raft attar cordage, an ranker dough ball. "Comb ink, sweat hard," setter wicket woof, disgracing is verse.

Ladle Rat Rotten Hut entity bet rum, an stud buyer groin-murder's bet.

"O Grammarl" crater ladle gull historically, "Water bag icer gut! A nervous sausage bag ice!"

"Battered lucky chew whiff, sweat hard," setter bloat-Thursday woof, wetter wicket small honors phase.

O, Grammar, water bag noise! A nervous sore suture anomalous prognosis!"

"Battered small your whiff, doling," whiskered dole woof, ants mouse worse waddling.

"0 Grammar, water bag mouser gut! A nervous sore suture bag mouse!"

Daze worry on-forger-nut ladle gull's lest warts. Oil offer sodden, caking offer carvers an sprinkling otter bet, disk hoard-hoarded woof lipped own pore Ladle Rat Rotten Hut an garbled erupt.

MURAL: Yonder nor sorghum stenches shut ladle gulls stopper torque wet strainers.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 1SO on November 18, 2010, 10:16:14 PM
Friend of mine said that he's a Devout Athiest.  I'm not up on specifics, but can you be Devout and an Athiest?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: IDrinkYourMilkshake on November 28, 2010, 04:37:31 PM
What is the word for when you spell sounds out in the way that they are pronounced, other than "phonetically".

E.g. Say you cant speak French and a load of Frenchmen are having a conversation around you, and youre asked to produce a written report of the conversation, you might go:

"Va voo la sons on sans"

etc....

There is a proper word for it. Its "Ididacts" or something like that?


 
I need it for an essay im finishing off.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on November 28, 2010, 04:49:14 PM
I thought phonetically covered that — as in, phonetic transcription. Can't think of an alternative.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: IDrinkYourMilkshake on November 28, 2010, 04:56:42 PM
Found it!!!

Eye-dialect!

From wiki:

Eye dialect is the use of non-standard spelling for speech to draw attention to pronunciation, often in regards to the literary technique of using non-standard spelling to approximate a pronunciation that is actually no different from the standard pronunciation but has the effect of dialectal, foreign, or uneducated speech.

So there!!!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on November 29, 2010, 04:01:17 AM
It's a complete aesthetic.

I'm listening to This American Life.  Ira Glass is playing an episode of Chicken Man. Of the actors, he says, "The thing I love is how completely low key the performances are. It's like they're not even trying. It's a complete aesthetic."  What does that mean?

Looking at the online dictionary, I suppose it could be: "It's a complete esthetic."   Whichever it is, I don't know the meaning.

Enlighten me.

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Adrienne on November 29, 2010, 06:04:32 AM
Found it!!!

Eye-dialect!

From wiki:

Eye dialect is the use of non-standard spelling for speech to draw attention to pronunciation, often in regards to the literary technique of using non-standard spelling to approximate a pronunciation that is actually no different from the standard pronunciation but has the effect of dialectal, foreign, or uneducated speech.

So there!!!
Like it!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on December 03, 2010, 11:30:04 AM
Is that infamous paragraph of jumbled words that are still readable a fake?

Spelling Matters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNStNUizxhE#ws)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FifthCityMuse on December 06, 2010, 04:46:30 PM
La Belle et La Bette
There is something so stunning about this title in French that the English translation simply can't match. It's the closeness of the words, their visual similarity. Their intrinsic sameness, but the important difference.

Yi Yi has a similar thing going on as an untranslated title, once you understand the full effects. It's just a shame that it has to be so explained to the English speaking audience, where the Chinese speaker/reader would understand the duality and layering of the title straight away (well, quicker, perhaps).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Emiliana on December 22, 2010, 08:21:51 AM
Is it

"Even I, who know nothing about the subject at all, can see...."

or

"Even I, who knows nothing about the subject at all, can see..."

?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: worm@work on December 22, 2010, 09:02:56 AM
Is it

"Even I, who know nothing about the subject at all, can see...."

or

"Even I, who knows nothing about the subject at all, can see..."

?

I use the latter. My understanding is that we use the plural form of the verb when the object is singular and vice-versa. I could also just be making that up!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Emiliana on December 22, 2010, 09:40:17 AM
Hmm, interesting. Of course I honestly don't know in this case, which is why I asked, but it would be highly unusual for the object to determine the grammatical number of the verb... That's against every grammar rule I ever learned ;).

Just to be clear that I understand what you are saying:

Would you say: 'Even I, who have never met John, can tell that he is a bastard.'
But: 'Even I, who has never met her children, can tell that they are a bunch of spoiled brats.' ?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on December 22, 2010, 10:51:16 AM
I use the latter. My understanding is that we use the plural form of the verb when the object is singular and vice-versa. I could also just be making that up!
I've never heard of this. Doesn't the verb always need to agree with the subject? I've never thought about the object affecting the verb.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: tinyholidays on December 22, 2010, 11:21:15 PM
It is the former. In this case, who is a restatement of the subject. (I who know nothing, you who know nothing, he who knows nothing, we who know nothing, they who know nothing.)

"Who knows nothing" indicates a separate unknown (and unknowing) entity.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on December 23, 2010, 09:29:25 AM
When one says, "I was disappointed." 'disappointed' can be either an adjective or a verb, right?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on December 23, 2010, 11:16:06 AM
When one says, "I was disappointed." 'disappointed' can be either an adjective or a verb, right?
In that sentence, I believe, it can be only an adjective since it's describing you; the sentence is not articulating something you are doing.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on December 23, 2010, 11:20:37 AM
Or it could very well be a passive voice verb with unstated pronoun subject "it" whose antecedent would presumably have preceded it. Basically it may be saying I was disappointed (by X) which would be rewritten, X disappointed me.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: tinyholidays on December 23, 2010, 11:55:25 AM
Or it could very well be a passive voice verb with unstated pronoun subject "it" whose antecedent would presumably have preceded it. Basically it may be saying I was disappointed (by X) which would be rewritten, X disappointed me.

This.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FifthCityMuse on January 28, 2011, 08:02:02 AM
Carrying on a discussion that started at work:

Where do we stand on "comedic"? I know we use it in out Filmspot categories, but should it really be "Best Scene (Comic/Comical)"? That doesn't seem to have the same connotation, does it?

But for example, "He gave a comic performance" is miles better than "he gave a comedic performance".
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 25, 2011, 07:03:29 PM
What's the difference between parenthesis and parentheses? If one is singular and one is plural, what does that mean?

Is parenthesis this: (

and parentheses this: ( )

or is parenthesis this: ( )

and parentheses this: ( ) ( )

??
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on February 25, 2011, 07:07:39 PM
What's the difference between parenthesis and parentheses? If one is singular and one is plural, what does that mean?

Is parenthesis this: (

and parentheses this: ( )


This is my understanding and wikipedia seems to agree.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: tinyholidays on February 25, 2011, 07:19:28 PM
Open parenthesis: (

Surrounded by parentheses: ( )
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 25, 2011, 07:22:51 PM
But wikipedia also says this:

"In more formal usage "parenthesis" may refer to the entire bracketed text, not just to the punctuation marks used (so all the text in this set of round brackets may be said to be a parenthesis or a parenthetical)."

So maybe if I'm referring to the punctuation marks only, one mark is a parenthesis and both are parentheses, but if I'm referring to a parenthetical statement that includes both marks, I may/should call it a parenthesis ??
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on March 07, 2011, 07:19:18 PM
You don't rifle through a stack of letters. You riffle through it.

I had no idea.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: alexarch on March 07, 2011, 07:43:32 PM
You don't rifle through a stack of letters. You riffle through it.

I had no idea.

pixote
Weird. Riffle sounds like something you'd do with a plastic bat and a speech impediment.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FifthCityMuse on March 07, 2011, 11:07:32 PM
The antonym for 'phallic' is, by all accounts, 'yonic'.

Anyone care to confirm? It doesn't quite have the same ring, does it?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on March 07, 2011, 11:46:10 PM
"Ring" being the correct word, FCM

I'll confirm that yonic is to female as phallic is to male.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on March 26, 2011, 08:07:16 PM
antagonist --> antagonistic

protagonist --> protagonistic?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: tinyholidays on March 26, 2011, 08:12:04 PM
And them protagonism?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Melvil on April 25, 2011, 11:33:59 PM
Tarp tarp tarp tarp tarp tarp tarp tarp tarp.

Semantic satiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation)! I knew there had to be a term for it.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FroHam X on April 25, 2011, 11:35:55 PM
And coined by a Canadian!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on April 27, 2011, 06:40:22 PM
I guess those that think impact is a noun and not a verb have officially lost? I've heard it on network newscasts like three times in the past couple days.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FifthCityMuse on May 06, 2011, 01:19:19 AM
That "i before e except after c" rule really does suck, doesn't it?

Neighbour.

Societal.

Need I say more?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on May 06, 2011, 07:56:53 AM
English grammar IS Nam, no rules.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: MartinTeller on May 06, 2011, 08:32:20 AM
That "i before e except after c" rule really does suck, doesn't it?

Neighbour.

Societal.

Need I say more?

It's not supposed to be a catch-all rule for the placement of e's and i's.  It's only meant to help people remember whether it's "ei" or "ie" when there's a long E sound. 

It's still a shitty rule though, because of seize and weird.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bill Thompson on May 14, 2011, 05:02:14 PM
I was looking over my Forgotten English calendar the other day, and I'm so going to start using a lot of those words in my every day verbiage and in my writing. When I have the time I'll post some of the words in here along with the definition as supplied by the calendar from some other source.

scurryfunge - A hasty tidying of the house between the time you see a neighbor and the time she knocks on the door. (John Gould's Maine Lingo: Boiled Owls, Billdads, and Wazzats, 1975)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on May 14, 2011, 05:19:49 PM
Heh, that's something that'd come up in Balderdash :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on May 14, 2011, 06:14:10 PM
scurryfunge - A hasty tidying of the house between the time you see a neighbor and the time she knocks on the door. (John Gould's Maine Lingo: Boiled Owls, Billdads, and Wazzats, 1975)
Love it.  I needed this word.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bill Thompson on May 15, 2011, 08:26:42 AM
Some new words, and to help any confusion some words have more than one definition, I'll separate those with a ------ line in between the two, or more, definitions.

winbrow - An eyebrow. Adaptation of Middle Low German winbra, corresponding to Old High German wintbrawe and German wimper, eyelash; formed of wint wind, and brow; [1400s-1600s] (Sir James Murray's New England Dictionary, 1928) -------- Blacke-hair'd, broad-ey'd, his hairy win-browes meet. (Thomas Heywood's Great Britaines Troy, 1609)

catchpule - The game of tennis. Evidently from Belgian Kaatspel, as the ball used in tennis is called kaatsbal, and the chace or limits of the game kaats. Old French cace signifies chace, and cache incursion. (John Jamieson's Etymological Dictionary of the Scottish Language, 1808) ------ During the reign of [France's] Charles V palm play, which may properly enough be denominated hand-tennis, was exceedingly fashionable in France, being played by the nobility for large sums of money (Joseph Strutt's Sports and Pastimes of the People of England, 1801)

bag of nails - American thieves' cant. Confusion; topsy-turveydom; from "bacchanals." (John Farmer's Slang and Its Analogues, 1890)

married all o'er - Said of women who after their marriage . . . become . . . miserable-looking. (Georgina Jackson's Shropshire Word-Book, 1879)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bill Thompson on July 20, 2011, 06:37:31 PM
Does anyone know if "san" is still the proper honorific in Korean? I'm writing something up and I don't want to use san if it's not used in Korean.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: roujin on July 20, 2011, 07:32:28 PM
I thought san was a honorific in Japanese.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on July 20, 2011, 07:35:04 PM
I thought san was a honorific in Japanese.

Yep I think this is correct. Not Korean.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bill Thompson on July 20, 2011, 08:28:01 PM
I thought san was a honorific in Japanese.

That's what I thought, but I wanted to make sure. Anyone know what the male honorific is in Korean?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on July 20, 2011, 08:37:01 PM
I thought san was a honorific in Japanese.

That's what I thought, but I wanted to make sure. Anyone know what the male honorific is in Korean?

wikipedia to the rescue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_honorifics)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on July 21, 2011, 03:04:54 PM
so, Europeans (and more specifically Germans).  when using a slash to link two items, (ie: either/or) is it standard practice to place a space between the slash and the second word? (ie: either/ or)?

This is not usually the case in english usage of the puntuation but i thought maybe there was a difference between languages.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on July 27, 2011, 07:20:39 PM
I watch grammar, spelling, punctuation and capitalization even in notes to myself. Like I will make a point to fix something if I catch it. Anyone else?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on July 27, 2011, 07:38:48 PM
I do my best, be it texting, im'ing, whatever. Spelling is probably my biggest weakness. I've had a few words I can't even get the spell checker to recognize (though in my defence the auto-spell checker for Chrome is pretty poor. I can Google the same word, mispelled in the same way, and the first hit is always what I was looking for).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on July 27, 2011, 08:08:33 PM
I watch grammar, spelling, punctuation and capitalization even in notes to myself. Like I will make a point to fix something if I catch it. Anyone else?
Guilty.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on July 27, 2011, 08:12:05 PM
Yup. Any mistakes are usually on purpose. Or at least that's what I tell myself.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on July 27, 2011, 08:26:48 PM
I'm unable to see my own mistakes...
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on August 21, 2011, 11:00:19 PM
I have researched it and it seems there is not a word for the alcoholic beverage derived from fermentation of berries and most other fruits.  There is cider which is derived from fermented apples and perry which is derived from fermented pears.  There is mead derived from fermented honey.  But fermented berries, use the example elderberries, is called elderberry wine which cannot be correct since wine is fermented grape juice.  Fermented berry beverages are very good and deserve a name which properly designates them.   Maybe you have to be sober to name something...
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on August 22, 2011, 01:00:59 PM
all fermented fruit juice based alchohols are wines - cider can be used interchangably with wine.  given how wide spread it is though it seems to have become its own culturally accepted distinction.  wines from other fruit juices aren't nearly as much a staple (mayhap due to regionality of most fruits compared to grapes, apples and pears throughout the long history of fermentation techniques).

Beer is beer no matter the grain used in fermentation (rice, barley, sorghum, ect).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on August 22, 2011, 01:28:30 PM
I was doing mock interviews today and one person used the word ain't and they called him out on it. It is I suppose their responsibility as employers may well hold it against a person, but ain't is a perfectly proper word because everyone knows what it means. The fact that ain't and other phrases are held against people seems like a classist/anti-South view.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 'Noke on August 22, 2011, 03:01:56 PM
Things that are spelt so differently from the actual word that it really annoys me:

Bass guitar.

WHY ISN'T IT BASE?!?!?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on August 22, 2011, 03:05:51 PM
Funny coming from an Irish person. Somehow Saoirse is pronounced Sir-Sha. :P
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 'Noke on August 22, 2011, 03:22:00 PM
Funny coming from an Irish person. Somehow Saoirse is pronounced Sir-Sha. :P

Yah, but that's awesome, and it's not a hard pronunciation to get used to.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on August 24, 2011, 04:35:43 PM
I love it when this happens: you're writing something and you get to a word you've spoken a million times but have never written OR seen written. You have no idea how it should look because you've never looked at it! But you've been saying it for years, decades even... it just feels like "how did I go this long without ever having to write this"? It's weird but it happens, less and less as the years go on I expect.

Also, it's far too embarrassing to say which word this just happened to me with, so don't ask. I will say it's spelled differently in the US than Canada. (http://noffload.net/uploader/files/1/econs/redface.gif)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on August 26, 2011, 12:55:19 PM
"I'm not looking for this, but rather trying to find that."

Is the "but" or the "rather" superfluous?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: verbALs on August 26, 2011, 01:02:32 PM
I like the words that you use everyday but when you write them they just look really strange...I'll think of some examples.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: AAAutin on August 26, 2011, 01:16:51 PM
"I'm not looking for this, but rather trying to find that."

Is the "but" or the "rather" superfluous?

Either.

If you lose the "but," you should reinsert "I'm" before the "trying."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: tinyholidays on August 27, 2011, 02:36:27 PM
Joust (this is an everyday word in the West of England)

Is it? Not, like, with the lances and squires and stuff?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on August 27, 2011, 09:51:15 PM
Joust (this is an everyday word in the West of England)

Is it? Not, like, with the lances and squires and stuff?

I hope that's exactly what it's referring to.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on August 27, 2011, 10:07:15 PM
Joust (this is an everyday word in the West of England)

Is it? Not, like, with the lances and squires and stuff?

I hope that's exactly what it's referring to.

in some places, traditions die hard.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on December 01, 2011, 11:42:06 AM
The real joy of going abroad to teach English will be explaining why a language exists where this is a valid question:

"How did you fare in finding a fair fare to get to the store to buy fair fair fare?"

One pronunciation, two spellings, six definitions.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Emiliana on December 01, 2011, 02:40:14 PM
so, Europeans (and more specifically Germans).  when using a slash to link two items, (ie: either/or) is it standard practice to place a space between the slash and the second word? (ie: either/ or)?

This is not usually the case in english usage of the puntuation but i thought maybe there was a difference between languages.

Hey iKeith!, remember this post from July? Would you still like an answer for that?   ;D

No space! (ie: entweder/oder)

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Clovis8 on December 01, 2011, 02:47:54 PM
The real joy of going abroad to teach English will be explaining why a language exists where this is a valid question:

"How did you fare in finding a fair fare to get to the store to buy fair fair fare?"

One pronunciation, two spellings, six definitions.

I don't get the meaning of the last fair. As in fair hair?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on December 01, 2011, 03:20:08 PM
Fair as in carnival.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on December 01, 2011, 03:24:51 PM
The real joy of going abroad to teach English will be explaining why a language exists where this is a valid question:

"How did you fare in finding a fair fare to get to the store to buy fair fair fare?"

One pronunciation, two spellings, six definitions.

or explaining this:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Buffalo_sentence_1_parse_tree.svg/320px-Buffalo_sentence_1_parse_tree.svg.png)

and thanks Em! Got a report from a colleagues in Switzerland (should've said Swiss as opposed to German) and they had spaces after the slashes... it seemed... odd.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Emiliana on December 01, 2011, 03:35:22 PM
and thanks Em! Got a report from a colleagues in Switzerland (should've said Swiss as opposed to German) and they had spaces after the slashes... it seemed... odd.

Ah, that might explain it. The Swiss are an odd bunch.  (Or they might actually have completely different conventions regarding these kinds of things than we do ;))
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on January 22, 2012, 12:38:49 AM
Fun with grammar, or maybe not. 

This guy (http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2012/01/20/stealth_mountain_the_twitter_bot_devoted_to_a_single_grammatical_error.html) wrote a bot to find one phrase in Twitter posts which is commonly misspelled.  Once he identifies the wrong-doer, he sends them a little note.  The responses indicate that the note is less than well-received.

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: verbALs on February 15, 2012, 01:13:35 AM
Punctuation
Identifying poor use of punctuation will feel like an excessively nit-picking thing to do. However, the lack, or misuse of commas especially, can make some people's writing extremely difficult to read. Torturous, in fact. Constructing complex sentences goes with the territory here. Either you use short sentences, where the point is difficult to expand upon, or you venture out into verbose territory. If you don't break up your sentences, in order to emphasise certain phrases, then the whole logic of the sentence is lost. They also provide a rhythm and pacing to sentences, that make the process of reading them back, much more entertaining.

This isn't a case of bitching, or letting pedantry get in the way. This is about whether the basic meaning of writing is being properly communicated. Putting together a long review is a time-consuming process. Why handicap your work with poor punctuation? Why limit the number of people prepared to battle your prose style, to get meaning from your reviews? It isn't the easiest thing to do well, and this is a reminder to myself, as much as anybody else.

A good tune played with voice and acoustic guitar is still a good tune. It becomes a great tune when it goes electric, adds a backing rhythm guitar, and then lays in a beat, on drums and bass guitar. Punctuation serves the same basic function.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on February 15, 2012, 11:54:08 AM
My understanding of punctuation is foggy at best. I go through what I've written to make sure it reads ok, but it's pretty much impossible to see your own writing with fresh eyes so this practice is probably worthless. I should make an effort to understand the rules of punctuation better.

Who's the best on the forum? I'll just pay particular attention to what they do and emulate it.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Antares on February 15, 2012, 11:58:34 AM
When I was in school way, way back in the old days, grammar was my worst subject. The nuns would drill it into me, so now I'm very aware of when I make a mistake. My only problem today is that I still tend to use run on sentences.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: verbALs on February 15, 2012, 12:03:57 PM
My understanding of punctuation is foggy at best. I go through what I've written to make sure it reads ok, but it's pretty much impossible to see your own writing with fresh eyes so this practice is probably worthless. I should make an effort to understand the rules of punctuation better.

Who's the best on the forum? I'll just pay particular attention to what they do and emulate it.
I'm not marking it (because what do I know?). As a rule of thumb, the bold bit is just too long. I disagree you can't reread your own writing with fresh eyes. It's more likely that you just don't want to, or can't be bothered. If you feel like that, then why would anyone else feel differently reading it? Of course, you short-circuit that process by doing all-picture reviews. You sly (salty sea-) dog!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Antares on February 15, 2012, 12:05:49 PM
My understanding of punctuation is foggy at best. I go through what I've written to make sure it reads ok, but it's pretty much impossible to see your own writing with fresh eyes so this practice is probably worthless. I should make an effort to understand the rules of punctuation better.

Who's the best on the forum? I'll just pay particular attention to what they do and emulate it.
I'm not marking it (because what do I know?). As a rule of thumb, the bold bit is just too long. I disagree you can't reread your own writing with fresh eyes. It's more likely that you just don't want to, or can't be bothered. If you feel like that, then why would anyone else feel differently reading it? Of course, you short-circuit that process by doing all-picture reviews. You sly (salty sea-) dog!

It's not that it's too long, but rather it needs a comma after eyes.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: verbALs on February 15, 2012, 12:09:06 PM
Yes, sorry, that's much better put. :-[
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Monty on February 15, 2012, 12:42:19 PM
I thought the general rule of thumb was, when you read it back to yourself and you take a breath, you either put in a full stop, or a comma. No doubt you will be pouring over this message of mine, for punctuation and grammatical errors ::)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mousterpiece on February 15, 2012, 12:51:57 PM
I thought the general rule of thumb was, when you read it back to yourself and you take a breath, you either put in a full stop, or a comma. No doubt you will be pouring over this message of mine, for punctuation and grammatical errors ::)

WHERE'S THE PERIOD?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: verbALs on February 15, 2012, 12:58:54 PM
Yes, it is pedants' corner! Sorry.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 15, 2012, 01:13:11 PM
I thought the general rule of thumb was, when you read it back to yourself and you take a breath, you either put in a full stop, or a comma. No doubt you will be pouring over this message of mine, for punctuation and grammatical errors ::)
The pause rule, or breath rule, for commas works about half of the time.  Commas, essentially, separate main parts of a sentence from lesser parts, so to use commas properly, you need to be able to identify the parts of a sentence and understand how those parts are working together.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on February 15, 2012, 01:18:05 PM
My understanding of punctuation is foggy at best. I go through what I've written to make sure it reads ok, but it's pretty much impossible to see your own writing with fresh eyes so this practice is probably worthless. I should make an effort to understand the rules of punctuation better.

Who's the best on the forum? I'll just pay particular attention to what they do and emulate it.
I disagree you can't reread your own writing with fresh eyes. It's more likely that you just don't want to, or can't be bothered.
I can be bothered, I promise you. I'm constantly rereading what I've written before posting it. I think what happens is that I read it so many times I stop recognizing the clumsiness. Without meaning to I grow accustomed to the ugliness. It's only 6 months later when I go back to reference it that I'm like "ugh, I could've phrased that better".  :-\
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Antares on February 15, 2012, 05:01:49 PM
I thought the general rule of thumb was, when you read it back to yourself and you take a breath, you either put in a full stop, or a comma. No doubt you will be pouring over this message of mine, for punctuation and grammatical errors ::)
The pause rule, or breath rule, for commas works about half of the time.  Commas, essentially, separate main parts of a sentence from lesser parts, so to use commas properly, you need to be able to identify the parts of a sentence and understand how those parts are working together.

God, if I had a dollar for every time a nun drilled that line into me when I was back in school, I be retired rich right now. ;)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Antares on February 15, 2012, 05:05:39 PM
My understanding of punctuation is foggy at best. I go through what I've written to make sure it reads ok, but it's pretty much impossible to see your own writing with fresh eyes so this practice is probably worthless. I should make an effort to understand the rules of punctuation better.

Who's the best on the forum? I'll just pay particular attention to what they do and emulate it.
I disagree you can't reread your own writing with fresh eyes. It's more likely that you just don't want to, or can't be bothered.
I can be bothered, I promise you. I'm constantly rereading what I've written before posting it. I think what happens is that I read it so many times I stop recognizing the clumsiness. Without meaning to I grow accustomed to the ugliness. It's only 6 months later when I go back to reference it that I'm like "ugh, I could've phrased that better".  :-\

This scenario plays out for me also. Sometimes I reread something multiple times and never catch a mistake. But if I go back to it the next day, the mistake is glaring. This is why I never post a review I've written until the following day. I think it stems from the fact that the idea behind the sentence is still so fresh in my mind, that it blinds me to the possibility of it being wrong.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 15, 2012, 05:34:22 PM
God, if I had a dollar for every time a nun drilled that line into me when I was back in school, I be retired rich right now.
The nuns know.
Title: Re: Best Movies to Watch Instantly
Post by: pixote on April 20, 2012, 03:04:33 PM
Rourkefest

That's the dirtiest sounding word I've heard in a while.

pixote
Title: Re: Re: Best Movies to Watch Instantly
Post by: jim brown on April 20, 2012, 03:07:49 PM
Rourkefest

That's the dirtiest sounding word I've heard in a while.

pixote

For me it's analgesic.  Sounds like a really fascinating geological era.  One that, in the end, is sorely missed. 
Title: Re: Re: Best Movies to Watch Instantly
Post by: verbALs on April 20, 2012, 03:35:14 PM
Emollient does it for me. Especially the effulgent type.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: AAAutin on April 24, 2012, 08:28:23 PM
I like CINECAST!.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: jim brown on April 24, 2012, 08:43:40 PM
I love it when you quote Blue Velvet.  But isn't it "Daddy wants to CINECAST!"?

 :-*  <<<< (Dean Stockwell emoticon)

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on September 20, 2012, 03:37:36 AM
I don't want to grossly overstate things, but split infinitives are like a million times nicer to read than the grammatically "correct" alternative.

Tune in next time as passive voice is praised by me.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on September 20, 2012, 01:05:37 PM
I don't want to grossly overstate things, but split infinitives are like a million times nicer to read than the grammatically "correct" alternative.
Split away, my friend, the so-called "split infinitive" is not incorrect.

A good write-up on the whole hullabaloo: "How awkwardly to avoid split infinitives" (http://stancarey.wordpress.com/2012/07/11/how-awkwardly-to-avoid-split-infinitives/) -- "So there’s a rule in English, except it’s not a rule, but some people think it is, and others who know it’s not a rule obey it in case it bothers the people who think it is, even though it can cloud or change the meaning of their prose. Ah, split infinitives: what an unholy mess."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on September 20, 2012, 01:13:58 PM
Ah, more reason to hate grammarians. I much prefer writers. :)

Anyway, I was doing a proofreading of a document that awkwardly avoided a split infinitive and I felt I couldn't rightly split it to make it sound better. In this instance, the construction matched something the document was quoting so that was probably the right call, though I'd never write it that way if I was doing it from scratch.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on September 20, 2012, 03:25:55 PM
Ah, more reason to hate grammarians. I much prefer writers. :)
Sometimes, there can be a happy marriage between the two. :)

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on February 07, 2013, 03:30:30 PM
C'mon English majors, I need your help.

It’s probably wise that you explain this caveat to whomever/whoever you’re sharing this information with.    

Do I use whomever or whoever?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FLYmeatwad on February 07, 2013, 03:36:43 PM
Whomever, I believe. Generally my trick, if I'm ever confused, is to see how I would respond if I was asking a question. If the response is "they" then it would be "who" and if the response is "them" then it would be "whom."

Like "With (Who/whom) is the information being shared?"

So "I'm sharing this information with them" not "I'm sharing this information with they."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on February 07, 2013, 03:42:28 PM
The Provincial Government thanks you for your assistance.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on February 07, 2013, 04:10:46 PM
Though I would have to say that you should not use both "to" and "with". Aren't their functions repetitive in that sentence. And since you shouldn't really end a sentence with a preposition, I would just take "with" out and leave it like that. Definitely "whomever" though.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on February 07, 2013, 06:03:02 PM
The Provincial Government thanks you for your assistance.

Careful! I'm not sure they approve of such brazen displays of good workmanship in this province. ;)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 07, 2013, 06:07:49 PM
Whomever, I believe. Generally my trick, if I'm ever confused, is to see how I would respond if I was asking a question. If the response is "they" then it would be "who" and if the response is "them" then it would be "whom."
I concur with the "whomever" verdict.

In your sentence, "whomever" is an object of the preposition; therefore, you need the objective pronoun (whom), not the subjective pronoun (who). FLY's good trick is basically another way to help you figure out what position the pronoun holds in the sentence, whether it is objective or subjective.

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 07, 2013, 06:18:29 PM
And since you shouldn't really end a sentence with a preposition, I would just take "with" out and leave it like that.
There's a great discussion of this "rule" ;) on  Slate's Lexicon Valley podcast (http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/lexicon_valley/2012/02/lexicon_valley_why_we_think_we_can_t_end_a_sentence_with_a_preposition_.html).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on February 07, 2013, 11:03:57 PM
Yea yea fine, whatever, but "to" and "with" do both serve the same purpose, referring back to the "whomever", thereby being repetitive, so one should be removed. It just doesn't sound the same when you say: "It’s probably wise that you explain this caveat whomever you’re sharing this information with."

Should either be:
1. "It’s probably wise that you explain this caveat to whomever you’re sharing this information."

OR

2. "It’s probably wise that you explain this caveat with whomever you’re sharing this information."

Two different meaning actually, but if both are used, wouldn't you say the "with" is just superfluous?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on February 08, 2013, 12:07:48 AM
With would be incorrect there as while you are sharing the information with people, you aren't explaining with them. The with can be assumed.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 08, 2013, 12:12:08 AM
Yes, I agree, CD! I was just responding to the "don't end with a preposition" part.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FLYmeatwad on February 08, 2013, 10:51:06 AM
So FLY was talking about this elsewhere the other day. Is "based off of" or "based off" ever really proper? Most people seem to use it to replace "based on" (and I get it, language is flexible and as long as we understand what they mean anything is technically fine, so get with the CINECAST!ing times FLY), but they don't mean the same thing at all. Like if a film is based on a book, that means the book was the foundation that spawned the film. If one says it's "based off of" a novel then that kind of means that the book isn't the foundation. The film is off base. I'm fine saying that new game Aliens: Colonial Marines is based off (of) Lord of the Rings since they have nothing to do with one another, right?

Is "based off" way wrong? Why does it piss FLY off so much?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 08, 2013, 04:06:36 PM
Is "based off" way wrong? Why does it piss FLY off so much?
I think it is wrong, but I'm not sure I have a clear answer for why.  I'd make a correcting mark on a student essay if I saw it, anyway - and I do see that phrase pretty frequently.



Speaking of student essays:
Can eyes be "ripe with hope"?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: AAAutin on February 08, 2013, 04:35:07 PM
Speaking of student essays:
Can eyes be "ripe with hope"?

Sure, as long as the eyes in question are swollen, enlarged, full to fruition. (Or if the eyes are, in fact, grapes...grapes grown to perfection on an Obama Valley vine.)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: sdedalus on February 08, 2013, 04:36:35 PM
I could see that if they mean to imply the eyes are big, juicy, and/or close to bursting thanks to so much hope. If hope was widespread within their eyes, they'd be "rife with hope". Either way, it sounds like an awkward construction.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 08, 2013, 04:55:42 PM
Speaking of student essays:
Can eyes be "ripe with hope"?

Sure, as long as the eyes in question are swollen, enlarged, full to fruition. (Or if the eyes are, in fact, grapes...grapes grown to perfection on an Obama Valley vine.)
Haha, exactly. And I keep imagining engorged eyes. Gross.


I could see that if they mean to imply the eyes are big, juicy, and/or close to bursting thanks to so much hope. If hope was widespread within their eyes, they'd be "rife with hope". Either way, it sounds like an awkward construction.
Hmm, yes, if ripe means "wide" or "big" that might work, but yeah, it's an awkward construction at best.

I'll just put a "wc" notation above it and make the student think about the choice.

("wc" = questionable word choice - not water closet, btw. British editors use a different notation, I guess?)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: FLYmeatwad on February 08, 2013, 05:27:36 PM
Is "based off" way wrong? Why does it piss FLY off so much?
I think it is wrong, but I'm not sure I have a clear answer for why.  I'd make a correcting mark on a student essay if I saw it, anyway - and I do see that phrase pretty frequently.

Yeah, a professor I had freshman year brought it up as odd and said it was incorrect but didn't give an exact reason why aside from saying that the phrase comes from being "on base" and how being "off base" is bad, so it doesn't mean what people were using it for. It was an FSP so I was one of only two English majors in the entire class, and I'm not the biggest grammar buff anyway so when I was asked about it a few days ago (the guy even asked for a citation to say why it was incorrect to use "based off of") I had a difficult time explaining exactly why. Aside from "off of" being redundant anyway. Either way, I just gave him this link. .edu so whatever. (http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/based.html)

But yeah, I wouldn't need to see "I jumped off of the building" because "I jumped off the building" is quicker, cleaner, and whatever.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 08, 2013, 06:01:13 PM
Preposition use in English is a bit weird and random, anyway - I think it's usage that makes something correct, more than anything.   I have an undergrad minor in TESL, and I remember how incredibly difficult it was to explain to the English as a Second Language students I was working with why, for example, you get "on the bus" but not "in the bus."   Essentially, there's no good reason or regular rule why one is correct and the other isn't; language learners just have to memorize the variations.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on February 09, 2013, 12:27:37 AM
Speaking of student essays:
Can eyes be "ripe with hope"?

Sure, as long as the eyes in question are swollen, enlarged, full to fruition. (Or if the eyes are, in fact, grapes...grapes grown to perfection on an Obama Valley vine.)
Haha, exactly. And I keep imagining engorged eyes. Gross.


I could see that if they mean to imply the eyes are big, juicy, and/or close to bursting thanks to so much hope. If hope was widespread within their eyes, they'd be "rife with hope". Either way, it sounds like an awkward construction.
Hmm, yes, if ripe means "wide" or "big" that might work, but yeah, it's an awkward construction at best.

I'll just put a "wc" notation above it and make the student think about the choice.

("wc" = questionable word choice - not water closet, btw. British editors use a different notation, I guess?)

Maybe it's the noun that is throwing you off? The image of ripe eyes. The phrase "ripe with hope" is maybe not common but its not an unused metaphor. A google search reveals "words ripe with hope," "a city ripe with hope," "an outlook ripe with hope," "a world ripe with hope," and "cheeks ripe with hope" if one noun (words) can be ripe with hope why not another noun (eyes)?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: rajeevsingh on February 11, 2013, 05:31:07 AM
Yes there are hundreds of words with which we are really confused even if we are corrected thousand times..
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on February 22, 2013, 03:00:50 PM
Just sayin' (http://youtu.be/2_dc65V7DV8)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 1SO on February 22, 2013, 04:02:14 PM
Stole that bit from Gallagher (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDFQXxWIyvQ). 50 sec. in.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: AAAutin on March 07, 2013, 11:00:08 PM
Not to nitpick, but those aren't really acronyms, they are initialisms.

Hallelujah, FLY! (A true acronym.) Thank you.

Now if you could only convince people to stop referring to lecterns as podiums, you'd be my hero.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on March 11, 2013, 12:06:09 PM
This is nothing new - this is my life - it's what I signed up for - but I'm feeling particularly weary as the quarter nears its end, so I will indulge in a little whimpering.

I'll be receiving about 80 student essays this week (instead of the usual weekly 40 or so), half on Monday, half on Wednesday, and they'll all need to be read/responded to by next Monday morning, so it'll be a rough Thursday-Monday. 80 essays at 4-6 pages each = about 400 pages of mediocre to bad writing that I can't just skim. I have to pay attention every word and then respond in some useful, thorough way so that the student writer will learn something about writing, about thinking, about analysis, about communication.

A typical sample from a student's essay this quarter:

"As an artist you must not be bias, and dig deeper to understand the piece that you are engaging with rather than pass judgment. Art can deceive us in many ways and sometimes is meant to. A persons art work should always be taken into account, all the aspects that make it unique, including the amount of time spent on the piece itself. The spectrum of art, and how far it goes for those that are interested in its endless limits, can only be told through expression."

Also,

"Art is a part of everyone's lives as we know it, and sometimes we don't."

The rest of the essay is more of the same.


The English instructors I know talk about the piles of student essays as soul-destroying - that can be true - but they make me feel insane, too; I begin to wonder, is it me? am I just not able to read and understand what I read anymore? What's happening? Help!

Is it worth it? I do wonder sometimes. David Guterson (Snow Falling on Cedars) was here in town a couple of weeks ago, and a friend of mine went to hear him speak; when asked if he ever thought of teaching again, he said, he'd thought of it, but in the end, just couldn't go back to facing those repeating piles of 100 student essays again.

Yeah, exactly.

But then, I can't help caring about my students - it's a pile of mostly poorly written essays, but each essay represents one person, full of hopes and dreams, and I can't be dismissive.  And I have those students, every quarter, who tell me how thankful they are that I took the time to read and respond to what they write, to help them on in their careers as students, as they've put it.  And then, I think, it's all worth it. 

Is it worth it?

I'm not sure I'll ever be absolutely sure.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on March 11, 2013, 02:31:30 PM
Sounds like you have some future lawyers in your class (judging by what I have to read every night at work). :D
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Sandy on March 11, 2013, 03:08:44 PM
I could hardly make it through that sample OAD. I think of the housework you were talking to BlueVoid about, that day in day out, never ending, always replicating responsibility. They're much of a muchness. You're building lives, whether it's through your academic mentoring or through your home you're constantly re-creating.

I admire you a great deal for all of your dedication. :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: AAAutin on March 11, 2013, 03:24:46 PM
Is it worth it?

If you've come to the point where you're privately posting your students' work for ridicule, perhaps your heart's just not in it anymore.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: don s. on March 11, 2013, 04:14:54 PM
Is it worth it?

If you've come to the point where you're privately posting your students' work for ridicule, perhaps your heart's just not in it anymore.

NOT THAT WE DON'T APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO RIDICULE.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: AAAutin on March 11, 2013, 04:30:09 PM
NOT THAT WE DON'T APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO RIDICULE.

I'm just sore because that was my essay. (ART IS PART OF EVERYONE'S LIVES! AND SOMETIMES WE DON'T KNOW IT!)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on March 11, 2013, 04:36:33 PM
Is it worth it?

If you've come to the point where you're privately posting your students' work for ridicule, perhaps your heart's just not in it anymore.

Too harsh, AAA.  OAD is not ridiculing the essays.  She's giving an example of what's she is dealing with for those of us readers who have not seen a student essay.  It's difficult to imagine the degree of awful some student writing is, especially around here where everyone is a very good writer and beyond that clever, clear, and concise in their posts.  Student writing is many degrees below the level of what we produce here.

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on March 11, 2013, 06:12:37 PM
A typical sample from a student's essay this quarter:

"As an artist you must not be bias, and dig deeper to understand the piece that you are engaging with rather than pass judgment. Art can deceive us in many ways and sometimes is meant to. A persons art work should always be taken into account, all the aspects that make it unique, including the amount of time spent on the piece itself. The spectrum of art, and how far it goes for those that are interested in its endless limits, can only be told through expression."

Perhaps try reading it more dramatically (http://youmakemetouchyourhandsforstupidreasons.ytmnd.com/). :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on March 11, 2013, 06:21:02 PM
Sounds like you have some future lawyers in your class (judging by what I have to read every night at work). :D
Ha, yes, maybe so. :)


I could hardly make it through that sample OAD. I think of the housework you were talking to BlueVoid about, that day in day out, never ending, always replicating responsibility. They're much of a muchness. You're building lives, whether it's through your academic mentoring or through your home you're constantly re-creating.

I admire you a great deal for all of your dedication. :)
Thanks for the encouragement, Sandy. I do hope that I am building lives - I do certainly feel invested, in my children, of course, but in my students, personally.  (That's why the plagiarism I dealt with earlier in the quarter felt like such a slap in the face; I give time and intellectual and emotional energy to every single thing my students write, and when they give me something that obviously isn't theirs, it's just very disheartening.)


Is it worth it?
If you've come to the point where you're privately posting your students' work for ridicule, perhaps your heart's just not in it anymore.
Too harsh, AAA.  OAD is not ridiculing the essays.  She's giving an example of what's she is dealing with for those of us readers who have not seen a student essay.  It's difficult to imagine the degree of awful some student writing is, especially around here where everyone is a very good writer and beyond that clever, clear, and concise in their posts.  Student writing is many degrees below the level of what we produce here.
As saltine understood, AAA, I honestly did not intend that to be an example of the ridiculous, and I'm very sorry if it seemed that way.  I suppose this is a place I feel I can vent a little, but perhaps I shouldn't.  I do take that student seriously (if I didn't, my job would be a heckuva lot easier), and if you'd like me to show you the feedback I gave to that particular writer for that essay, I'd be happy to; perhaps it'd make you feel better to see what I do give back to my students.  As saltine says, the sample was intended to demonstrate the kind of writing I work to translate every week; the syntax and diction are just very problematic. This particular student is intelligent and well-spoken in class; he has interesting ideas about art. That little sample, too, reflects some of the things we've been talking about in class, so on one level, it is encouraging; he is clearly working to interact with the class ideas - to say something back in conversation in writing about those ideas. But I still have to try to figure out exactly what he's saying - and then figure how to respond in a way that will help him.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on March 11, 2013, 06:22:15 PM
Perhaps try reading it more dramatically (http://youmakemetouchyourhandsforstupidreasons.ytmnd.com/). :)
:D
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on March 17, 2013, 10:58:19 PM
Bison bison Bison bison bison bison Bison bison.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on March 17, 2013, 10:59:18 PM
Bison bison Bison bison bison bison Bison bison.

I've seen this before, but I've never understood how to read it for meaning. 
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on March 17, 2013, 11:58:56 PM
I see what you did there, Keith, and I walked right in.

Here's the real sentence:

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on March 18, 2013, 01:12:38 AM
I see what you did there, Keith, and I walked right in.

Here's the real sentence:

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

 ;D
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on May 10, 2013, 11:39:39 AM
I've been trying to up my vocabulary. Not in learning new words, but in using the words that I already have. Yesterday's list: morass (fun because it sounds like 'more ass'), amalgam, epistle. Gotta spice up your life, man.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on May 10, 2013, 02:20:46 PM
Word.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on May 16, 2013, 06:12:23 PM
It annoys me that account needs two C's and amount doesn't need two M's. 
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on May 16, 2013, 06:46:19 PM
m is a bigger letter than c so it covers more. (Totally not a rule.)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: don s. on May 16, 2013, 06:48:47 PM
If it still bothers you, perhaps contemplating "accommodate" will improve your mood.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on May 16, 2013, 07:14:35 PM
Ah balance. Very comforting. :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Melvil on May 16, 2013, 09:18:35 PM
Apparently there is a spelling distinction between "discreet" and "discrete" and now I feel foolish for never having noticed.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on May 16, 2013, 10:40:04 PM
Well I'll be damned.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on May 16, 2013, 10:53:07 PM
Hum, I don't remember seeing that distinction, either. Yea, that's weird. Now I'm sure I'll notice it everywhere and wonder why I never saw it before.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on July 16, 2013, 10:00:09 AM
22 Maps That Show How Americans Speak English Totally Differently From Each Other (http://www.businessinsider.com/22-maps-that-show-the-deepest-linguistic-conflicts-in-america-2013-6?op=1)

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: AAAutin on July 16, 2013, 10:46:44 AM
22 Maps That Show How Americans Speak English Totally Differently From Each Other (http://www.businessinsider.com/22-maps-that-show-the-deepest-linguistic-conflicts-in-america-2013-6?op=1)

Nobody calls it a "sunshower" anymore? Weird.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on July 16, 2013, 11:21:53 AM
"everyone in south Florida pronounces things in the northern U.S. style."

That's because of the retirees, right?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: AAAutin on July 16, 2013, 11:31:01 AM
"everyone in south Florida pronounces things in the northern U.S. style."

That's because of the retirees, right?

All those snowbirds.

(And by "snowbirds," I mean cocaine bindles. But, yes, the retirees too.)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: ¡Keith! on July 16, 2013, 11:39:39 AM
22 Maps That Show How Americans Speak English Totally Differently From Each Other (http://www.businessinsider.com/22-maps-that-show-the-deepest-linguistic-conflicts-in-america-2013-6?op=1)

Nobody calls it a "sunshower" anymore? Weird.

yeah, I thought that odd. Philly holds down the sunshower at least. I wonder if these were multiple choice or open ended questions actually.

Also Pennsylvania would keep up its linguistic strangeness if they added our two most used "group of two or more people" options Yins (Pittsburgh) and Youse (Philly).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on July 16, 2013, 11:52:03 AM
What is your general term for the rubber soled shoes worn in gym class...

I'd most commonly call those "runners" which isn't an option. Maybe a Canadian term.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Verite on July 16, 2013, 12:44:09 PM
That's because of the retirees, right?

Morty: This is the home stretch - tomorrow's the election!
Cosmo: Right, yeah. The polls close after dinner: three o'clock. But then, when we win, the celebration goes all night until the break of 8:00 p.m.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on July 18, 2013, 10:57:32 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on August 07, 2013, 03:53:25 PM
The Oxford comma (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/the-case-for-and-against-the-oxford-comma/article625889/). Who has thoughts?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on August 07, 2013, 03:59:20 PM
I generally just use it. Why not? In the rare cases when it doesn't work, I don't use it.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 07, 2013, 04:25:40 PM
The Oxford comma (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/the-case-for-and-against-the-oxford-comma/article625889/). Who has thoughts?
I'm for it!

Seems to me there's less chance of confusion with it - though as the article suggests, it's not a fool-proof solution. Still, more fool-proof than not, I think.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: don s. on August 07, 2013, 04:48:44 PM
I generally just use it. Why not? In the rare cases when it doesn't work, I don't use it.

As a matter of style and consistency, I try to use it. Yes, in cases where it might introduce ambiguity, my advice is always to recast the sentence.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: AAAutin on August 07, 2013, 06:34:49 PM
The Oxford comma (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/the-case-for-and-against-the-oxford-comma/article625889/).

Who gives a CINECAST! about an Oxford comma?

Me, Vampire Weekend. Junior, OAD, The Don, and me.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Antares on August 07, 2013, 06:46:44 PM
The Oxford comma (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/the-case-for-and-against-the-oxford-comma/article625889/). Who has thoughts?

Quote
I invoke Keith Waterhouse in Waterhouse on Newspaper Style: "Commas are not condiments. Do not pepper sentences with them unnecessarily."

I've never used it and never will.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on August 07, 2013, 08:06:11 PM
I use it. It caused quite a stir at work today. Not since the "single or double space after a period debate" has the staff been so bitterly divided.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: AAAutin on August 07, 2013, 08:18:50 PM
"single or double space after a period debate"

I used to fight bitterly for the latter, but the downward trajectory of the progressing years has revealed it to be a lost cause: It's now a single-spaced world—double spaces are a luxury we can no longer afford.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Verite on August 07, 2013, 08:32:29 PM
*Prays for a 9th season of Curb Your Enthusiasm and a sequence or episode that involves the Oxford comma*
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: don s. on August 07, 2013, 08:42:02 PM
Unless your workplace is still using typewriters with monospaced fonts, then yeah, no double-spacing. It's in the same category and splotching whiteout on your computer display.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: AAAutin on August 07, 2013, 09:25:27 PM
*Prays for a 9th season of Curb Your Enthusiasm and a sequence or episode that involves the Oxford comma*

Susie: "What the—Larry, why are you dressed like the devil?!"
Larry: "The invitation said, Please dress in red, white and blue. I went with the red option!"
Susie: "It's a 4th of July barbecue, you dumb CINECAST!! How many people you see here dressed in solid red?!"
Larry: "I'm proving a point: nobody respects the Oxford comma anymore."
Susie: "Oxford?! Oxford?! What the CINECAST! do you know about Oxford?! You went to the University of Maryland!"
Larry: "It's a term!"
Susie: "A term?! For what?! For ruining my barbecue?!"
Larry: "It's a term for the serial comma! If you wanted me to wear red, white, and blue, the invitation should have read, Please dress in red—comma—white—comma—and blue."
Jeff: "He has a point."
Susie: "What the CINECAST! do you know about commas?! You need Sammi's help reading the TV Guide! I'm done with this! Go check on the hot dogs. Try not to eat 'em all, you fat CINECAST!. And take Mr. Ketchup here with you..."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: don s. on August 07, 2013, 09:31:36 PM
Hmm. I might have to sign up for HBO again.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on August 07, 2013, 09:34:24 PM
My job would be notably easier if they didn't insist on two spaces after periods and colons.

And mock Larry's problem isn't the Oxford comma, it is not knowing the difference between and and or (and context clues). I'm mostly anti-Oxford.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: AAAutin on August 07, 2013, 09:43:53 PM
And mock Larry's problem isn't the Oxford comma, it is not knowing the difference between and and or (and context clues).

Oh, he knows the difference. He's being obstinate, as is often his temperament.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on August 07, 2013, 10:09:36 PM
*Prays for a 9th season of Curb Your Enthusiasm and a sequence or episode that involves the Oxford comma*

Susie: "What the—Larry, why are you dressed like the devil?!"
Larry: "The invitation said, Please dress in red, white and blue. I went with the red option!"
Susie: "It's a 4th of July barbecue, you dumb CINECAST!! How many people you see here dressed in solid red?!"
Larry: "I'm proving a point: nobody respects the Oxford comma anymore."
Susie: "Oxford?! Oxford?! What the CINECAST! do you know about Oxford?! You went to the University of Maryland!"
Larry: "It's a term!"
Susie: "A term?! For what?! For ruining my barbecue?!"
Larry: "It's a term for the serial comma! If you wanted me to wear red, white, and blue, the invitation should have read, Please dress in red—comma—white—comma—and blue."
Jeff: "He has a point."
Susie: "What the CINECAST! do you know about commas?! You need Sammi's help reading the TV Guide! I'm done with this! Go check on the hot dogs. Try not to eat 'em all, you fat CINECAST!. And take Mr. Ketchup here with you..."

(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t288/tydevan/worthy.gif)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 07, 2013, 10:16:09 PM
It caused quite a stir at work today. Not since the "single or double space after a period debate" has the staff been so bitterly divided.
;D

"single or double space after a period debate"
I used to fight bitterly for the latter, but the downward trajectory of the progressing years has revealed it to be a lost cause: It's now a single-spaced world—double spaces are a luxury we can no longer afford.
Same, AAAutin. Alas for the double spaces of our youth.



Re: Curb. :D Yes, please.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Sandy on August 07, 2013, 11:03:22 PM
May I join you mañana? :D



(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t288/tydevan/worthy.gif)            (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t288/tydevan/worthy.gif)



AAAutin, that's some impressive PDQ script writing!



As for Oxford, I use too many commas as is, so he's out!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Verite on August 07, 2013, 11:28:10 PM
Jeff: "He has a point."
Susie: "What the CINECAST! do you know about commas?! You need Sammi's help reading the TV Guide! I'm done with this! Go check on the hot dogs. Try not to eat 'em all, you fat CINECAST!. And take Mr. Ketchup here with you..."

;D  ;D

I can picture Jeff's facial expression, and I can hear Susie's voice.  lmao.  Great stuff.

I was hoping you'd post something. 

In case you missed it and if you're all caught up with Breaking Bad, here's another joint by AAA: http://www.filmspotting.net/forum/index.php?topic=5444.msg693856#msg693856
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on August 08, 2013, 12:39:30 AM
In other news on the wordy front, a new book from my uncle and his writing partner sister: Wretched Writing (http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/08/07/schadenfreude-alert-inside-a-collection-of-wretched-writing/), a delightful compendium of truly awful writing.


(Although as the most recent episode of the Lexicon Valley podcast (https://soundcloud.com/slateradio/lexicon-valley-no-32-the) would have it, there's no such thing as awful and wrong in language.)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on August 08, 2013, 12:58:37 AM
I think I side with Lexicon Valley

/me leaves to read and enjoy Twilight
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on November 16, 2013, 06:04:46 PM
I've been surprised over the years at how often my students type, or hand-write, "women" when they mean "woman" - I find that mistake in essays and informal writing every single quarter, often with ESL students - a mistake that I might expect there - but just as often with native English speakers.

Is this merely a typo or is there genuine confusion about the different meanings of the two words? Anyone have any thoughts, ideas?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Monty on November 16, 2013, 06:35:22 PM
Do the students have the same confusion between 'man' and 'men'. It might be a slight confusion between the singular and the plural. You can have 'cat' and 'cats', a slight difference, but different meanings. Taking your point further, I'd be interested how many student's use woman's and women's in context.

This sound's all very English, yikes!!!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on November 16, 2013, 06:53:08 PM
Do the students have the same confusion between 'man' and 'men'. It might be a slight confusion between the singular and the plural. You can have 'cat' and 'cats', a slight difference, but different meanings. Taking your point further, I'd be interested how many student's use woman's and women's in context.

No, there isn't the same confusion between "man" and "men," and oldkid just pointed out to me elsewhere, viz. Facebook, where I also asked the question, that most people, essentially, spell things how they hear them, and there is very little difference (no difference?) in the sound of the second syllable of woman/women.  I've had the habit from the time I was quite young of saying words differently in my head in order to remember how to spell them, and I consciously think about meanings and roots, too, to remember spellings, but maybe most people don't do that.

For a context, here's a sample sentence from an essay: "The movie is about how a man fell in love with a women through Facebook." And the mistake is repeated throughout the rest of the paragraph.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Monty on November 16, 2013, 07:21:50 PM
One thing is for sure, the English language is a difficult and complex language to understand, with all it's little nuances. For example when I was a kid I went to school at a place called Oughtibridge, it's on the northwest of the city.

One of the the first English lessons we had with the teacher at school, brought up the pronunciation of Oughtibridge. He said in normal circumstances the 'gh' would be pronounced like in enough, so Oughtibridge would be pronounced hoof-ti-bridge, but that's wrong. The 'u' before the 'gh' silences the effect of the 'gh', so you get hoo-ti-bridge instead of hoof-ti-bridge. I think the teacher said the name had Dutch origins, being something close to water etc, it was a long time ago.

Good luck with your classes.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on November 16, 2013, 07:26:52 PM
One thing is for sure, the English language is a difficult and complex language to understand, with all it's little nuances. For example when I was a kid I went to school at a place called Oughtibridge, it's on the northwest of the city.

One of the the first English lessons we had with the teacher at school, brought up the pronunciation of Oughtibridge. He said in normal circumstances the 'gh' would be pronounced like in enough, so Oughtibridge would be pronounced hoof-ti-bridge, but that's wrong. The 'u' before the 'gh' silences the effect of the 'gh', so you get hoo-ti-bridge instead of hoof-ti-bridge. I think the teacher said the name had Dutch origins, being something close to water etc, it was a long time ago.
I love this - English, with its wacky combination of origins - is so crazy!  :D

Good luck with your classes.
Thanks.  I'll need it.  :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: MartinTeller on November 16, 2013, 08:45:20 PM
One thing is for sure, the English language is a difficult and complex language to understand, with all it's little nuances.

Intentional?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on November 16, 2013, 08:53:41 PM
Lol. Nope. Just because I can recognize typos doesn't mean I always see my own. Ergh, autopilot! :D  It's is so annoying - and good for me, I think - when I read back over my comments to students on previous drafts of their essays (I type up my comments) and discover a typo!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: MartinTeller on November 16, 2013, 09:02:31 PM
Don't worry about it, that was Monty's typo ;)

I almost never write a review without making at least one typo.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on November 16, 2013, 09:15:33 PM
Lol x2! I really need to read more carefully. :D
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Monty on November 17, 2013, 02:56:24 AM
Lol. Nope. Just because I can recognize typos doesn't mean I always see my own. Ergh, autopilot! :D  It's is so annoying - and good for me, I think - when I read back over my comments to students on previous drafts of their essays (I type up my comments) and discover a typo!

Huh? ??? 

;D
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on January 15, 2014, 06:36:22 PM
Can anyone come up with a good reason why temperament is not spelled temperment?

I thought my spell check was f'ing with me.  :-\
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on January 15, 2014, 06:44:57 PM
Can anyone come up with a good reason why temperament is not spelled temperment?

I thought my spell check was f'ing with me.  :-\

It's possible that goverment cost me the second grade spelling bee.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: IDrinkYourMilkshake on January 16, 2014, 01:33:32 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo





Contender for the 'you laugh, you lose' thread, too?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on April 11, 2014, 06:13:26 PM
I constantly make the mistake of putting two M's in amount, because account has two C's, and vise versa.

I can't account for the amount!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on April 12, 2014, 12:11:48 AM
That must mean you always spell accommodation correctly, so that's a bonus!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on July 10, 2014, 01:32:54 AM
The internet seems to be failing me. Revoltion is a word, correct? Like, the noun form of the adjective revolting or the adverb revoltingly, meaning causing disgust? Like, isn't revoltion the feeling you get when you see something revolting? The internet recognizes the other forms but seems completely at sea about the noun form. This is how this language works, correct?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: tinyholidays on July 10, 2014, 02:09:06 AM
There's revulsion, which I think is the word you're seeking, but there's also repulsion, which more accurately reflects your definition.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on July 10, 2014, 08:46:18 AM
Revulsion is the word I was seeking.

But revolting and revoltingly are the other forms...why the switch to u and s to make it a noun as revulsion? English, you miserable bastard.

Then again, repulsion is based on repel, repellant, repelling, repellingly if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 1SO on July 16, 2014, 11:55:31 PM
This film (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0037514/) is called Anchors Aweigh.
Not Anchors Away.
I always thought it was Anchors Away. When I reviewed it (http://www.filmspotting.net/forum/index.php?topic=12207.msg732200#msg732200), I put Away.
Aweigh just looks wrong. I don't know what the difference is between the words. I changed the heading, but left the spelling wrong in the review and first post index. That way if I need to find the review again, I won't have to go through this.


[I also had a hard time finding this thread because I was looking for 'grammer', which is what it sounds like.]
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Sandy on July 17, 2014, 12:27:24 AM
To weigh an anchor is to bring it aboard. Then they're ready to shove off. One of my favorite Frank Sinatra songs is in Anchors Aweigh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c85NXfwJqA
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on July 17, 2014, 02:21:57 AM
[I also had a hard time finding this thread because I was looking for 'grammer', which is what it sounds like.]

You were no doubt confused by Kelsey Grammer's indelible turn in Down Periscope, which of course includes the title music from Anchors Aweigh.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on July 21, 2014, 01:18:17 PM
Today's literary term is "prosopopoeia." It is the act of giving inanimate objects a voice. Exciting!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: sdb_1970 on July 21, 2014, 01:36:30 PM
Today's literary term is "prosopopoeia." It is the act of giving inanimate objects a voice. Exciting!

And the psychological term for this would be "psychosis"?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on July 21, 2014, 01:42:27 PM
Exactly. And the stage term is ventriloquism.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: sdb_1970 on July 21, 2014, 01:48:24 PM
I suppose I should not admit to the fact that I will, from time to time, hold our parrot in front of my face and pretend she's talking (trash) to my spouse.  (Parrot tends to get annoyed after more than 5 seconds of such nonsense and will twirl around and fling my glasses off.)  On the other hand, the parrot is not "inanimate", so I think I'm good.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on July 21, 2014, 01:49:34 PM
That's closer to personification, yes. And hilarious.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: verbALs on July 21, 2014, 01:52:25 PM
I suppose I should not admit to the fact that I will, from time to time, hold our parrot in front of my face and pretend she's talking (trash) to my spouse.  (Parrot tends to get annoyed after more than 5 seconds of such nonsense and will twirl around and fling my glasses off.)  On the other hand, the parrot is not "inanimate", so I think I'm good.
I like you. You are obviously nuts.  ;D
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: sdb_1970 on July 21, 2014, 01:56:22 PM
Yes, I supposed this is the sort of behaviors one engages in upon reaching age 40 and not having children.  Or, I suppose, one just acquires a lot of cats.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on September 07, 2014, 10:16:45 PM
In-thread poll: Which do you say?

"Joe's and my dogs are sick."
"Joe and mine's dogs are sick."
"Joe's and mine's dogs are sick."
"Mine and Joe's dogs are sick."
"My and Joe's dogs are sick."
"Mine and Joe's dogs are sick."
[Other]

Note: The same dogs belong to "Joe" and "me."

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: MartinTeller on September 07, 2014, 10:23:28 PM
"Our dogs are sick."  You're welcome.


But seriously, I'm guessing "Joe's and my" is correct.  That is, you combine the terms you would use if were speaking about only one of the parties.  "Joe's dogs are sick" + "My dogs are sick" = "Joe's and my dogs are sick."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on September 07, 2014, 10:46:05 PM
I really couldn't have picked a worse sample sentence, lol.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on September 07, 2014, 10:51:54 PM
And I forgot some:

"Me and Joe's dogs are sick."
"Joe and I's dogs are sick."
"Joe's and I's dogs are sick."
"Mine and Joe's dogs are sick."

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: heisenbergman on September 07, 2014, 10:54:28 PM
Dogs are sick and all you care about is grammar?!?!?! :P
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on September 07, 2014, 10:59:01 PM
Pretty sure Martin's on the right side here. Both with the our and with the correct silly version.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on September 07, 2014, 11:34:59 PM
There is a sub shop around these parts called Erbert and Gerbert's. Recently, I was about to get all pedantic by pointing out that it should be Erbert's and Gerbert's. I could have sworn I learned that you put the possessive on each, not just the last. But to be sure I looked it up. The internet (at least Chicago and MLA styles it seems) say that you would use Erbert and Gerbert's [sub shop] if they jointly own one shop and Erbert's and Gerbert's [sub shop] if they owned different shops (and were competitors, say).

I can't say I'm happy about this because I like the dual posessive structure better but I guess if the internet says it is so...
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: tinyholidays on September 08, 2014, 10:19:05 AM
It's an easier idea to tackle if you find another example, like, if you're going to visit your friends who live together. It would sound awkward to say "I'm going to Steve's and Leslie's house." Instead, you would likely say "I'm going to Steve and Leslie's house."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oldkid on September 08, 2014, 10:42:46 AM
It's a complete aesthetic.

I'm listening to This American Life.  Ira Glass is playing an episode of Chicken Man. Of the actors, he says, "The thing I love is how completely low key the performances are. It's like they're not even trying. It's a complete aesthetic."  What does that mean?

Looking at the online dictionary, I suppose it could be: "It's a complete esthetic."   Whichever it is, I don't know the meaning.

Enlighten me.

I don't think anyone answered Saltine's question here.

"Aesthetic" can mean, "a set of principles underlying and guiding the work of a particular artist or artistic movement."  They are saying that his art is complete and independent.


So the discussion above reminds me of a disagreement I had with a friend yesterday over something he said.  He was talking about his family and saying, "Over the courses of our lives."  And I was thinking that it should be "course" and he said that they all had different courses, so it should be plural.  Do you think it matters?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on September 08, 2014, 01:06:36 PM
Plural subjects get a plural verb, at least as far as the SAT goes.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oldkid on September 08, 2014, 04:12:35 PM
These are two nouns, the plural of "over the course of my life"
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on September 08, 2014, 04:17:19 PM
You're right. The same rule still applies, though.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on September 09, 2014, 12:08:35 AM
I think it is a minimalistic view of the word course to imply it dictates a narrow, rigid arc. Course is flexible enough to encompass a multitude, especially if that multitude is bonded as a unit, as suggested by the "our." Perhaps it would be over the courses of Joe's and Jane's lives.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 1SO on September 14, 2014, 10:32:51 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/aYAkkWB.png)

Isn't that bad grammar? Shouldn't it be Nicholas Sparks'?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: MartinTeller on September 14, 2014, 10:48:03 PM
Nope.  That's correct.  You use s's for the possessive of a singular entity, s' for a group possessive.  You would say "Orson Welles's Citizen Kane", not "Orson Welles' Citizen Kane"... unless you're talking a movie called Citizen Kane made by multiple people named Orson Welles.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Melvil on September 14, 2014, 10:51:01 PM
I believe it's disputed (http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/apostrophes/apostrophes-with-words-ending-in-s/), but it's certainly the less common choice. It looks funny to me.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on September 14, 2014, 11:10:33 PM
Yeah, I never add the extra s. I prefer elegance to properness in my grammar.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on November 24, 2014, 09:16:22 AM
I'm not saying the mediums aren't audiovisual.

Media.

Though while we are on the subject of pluralization. Can we as a collective just decide that Attorneys General is dumb and start considering Attorney Generals to be correct? Yeah, it is pluralizing the adjective or some such nonsense, but really, it is a two-part noun.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on November 24, 2014, 10:20:25 AM
I love saying Attorneys General. It's fun.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on November 24, 2014, 10:28:26 AM
Like culs-de-sac.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on November 24, 2014, 10:53:53 AM
Hah. That's a good one.

How would one refer to multiple Caps-Lock buttons?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Tequila on November 24, 2014, 03:25:20 PM
I'm not saying the mediums aren't audiovisual.

Media.
Hmm. (http://grammarist.com/usage/media-mediums/)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on November 24, 2014, 11:33:00 PM
Well, that curiously ties into the debate that spawned that particular point. I'd put film, books, plays, etc as communication media, not per se as art in the sense that might allow the use of mediums (clay, stone, steel, oils, watercolors, etc. would be art mediums if one does want to use that plural...I suppose celluloid and paper would be the mediums relevant to the discussion, but film and books are media).
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 1SO on January 15, 2015, 12:54:46 PM
This is Hildy’s world more than anybody else’s, but that doesn’t stop Walter from entering and trying to take over it.

Found this sentence while reading Junior's paper on Spaces in His Girl Friday. (http://www.filmspotting.net/forum/index.php?topic=5421.0) Is that grammar correct, or should it say "take it over"? Is either form acceptable?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on January 15, 2015, 01:07:00 PM
I think you're right. I plead youth and immaturity!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oldkid on January 15, 2015, 03:36:25 PM
Nah, Junior, you are too good a writer to plead that.  Just gotta take your lumps like the rest of us. 
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on January 15, 2015, 06:50:39 PM
It might also be fixed with dashes.

This is Hildy’s world more than anybody else’s, but that doesn’t stop Walter from entering - and trying to take over -  it.

Because the "it" applies to both the entering and the trying to take over. It's a sloppy sentence either way, but your fix, 1SO, loses a bit of the meaning as well. Also, this was many many moons ago.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: 1SO on January 15, 2015, 07:01:58 PM
I was genuinely uncertain if your format was correct. I'm still learning too.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Jeff Schroeck on March 30, 2015, 08:38:46 PM
I was thinking about the Oxford comma debate yesterday, and was wondering this: what are the arguments against using it? (Aside from cutting it to take a tweet down from 141 to 140 characters or something like that.)

I hadn't heard the term until a few years ago, or at least hadn't realized what it was referring to, and I found it weird that it had a debate attached to it since I had been taught as a kid to use it and it just seemed like it was the thing to do.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: MartinTeller on March 30, 2015, 09:23:07 PM
I was thinking about the Oxford comma debate yesterday, and was wondering this: what are the arguments against using it? (Aside from cutting it to take a tweet down from 141 to 140 characters or something like that.)

I have no idea, but maybe it's because you wouldn't use it if it were only two items?  You wouldn't say "We had cake, and ice cream." so you shouldn't say "We had hot dogs, cake, and ice cream."

Just a guess.  I'm a supporter of the Oxford comma.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Jeff Schroeck on March 30, 2015, 09:59:28 PM
Of course. The comma for the two items would be silly, and Wikipedia page for the Oxford comma says it's for a list of three or more. I know some people are for reducing comma usage in general,  but I don't get that in this situation.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on November 07, 2016, 03:14:35 PM
Copied from the Washington Post:

Once again, The Washington Post has published the winning submissions to
its yearly neologism contest, in which readers are asked to supply
alternative meanings for common words. The winners are:


1. Coffee (n.), the person upon whom one coughs.

2. Flabbergasted (adj.), appalled over how much weight you have gained.

3. Abdicate (v.), to give up all hope of ever having a flat stomach.

4. Esplanade (v.), to attempt an explanation while drunk.

5. Willy-nilly (adj.), impotent.

6. Negligent (adj.), describes a condition in which you absentmindedly answer the door in your nightgown.

7. Lymph (v.), to walk with a lisp.

8. Gargoyle (n), olive-flavored mouthwash.

9. Flatulence (n.) emergency vehicle that picks you up after you are run over by a steamroller.

10. Balderdash (n.), a rapidly receding hairline.

11. Testicle (n.), a humorous question on an exam.

12. Rectitude (n.), the formal, dignified bearing adopted by proctologists.

13. Pokemon (n), a Rastafarian proctologist.

14. Oyster (n.), a person who sprinkles his conversation with Yiddishisms.

15. Frisbeetarianism (n.), (back by popular demand): The belief that,
when you die, your soul flies up onto the roof and gets stuck there.

16. Circumvent (n.), an opening in the front of boxer shorts worn by
Jewish men.


The Washington Post's Style Invitational also asked readers to take any word from the dictionary, alter it by adding, subtracting, or changing
one letter, and supply a new definition. Here are this year's winners:

1. Bozone (n.): The substance surrounding stupid people that stops
bright ideas from penetrating. The bozone layer, unfortunately, shows little sign of breaking down in the near future.

3. Cashtration (n..): The act of buying a house, which renders the
subject financially impotent for an indefinite period.

4. Giraffiti (n): Vandalism spray-painted very high.

5. Sarchasm (n): The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.

6. Inoculatte (v): To take coffee intravenously when you are running late.

7. Hipatitis (n): Terminal coolness.

8. Osteopornosis (n): A degenerate disease. (This one got extra credit.)

9. Karmageddon (n): its like, when everybody is sending off all these
really bad vibes, right? And then, like, the Earth explodes and it's
like, a serious bummer.

10. Decafalon (n.): The grueling event of getting through the day
consuming only things that are good for you.

11. Glibido (v): All talk and no action.

12. Dopeler effect (n): The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter
when they come at you rapidly.

13. Arachnoleptic fit (n.): The frantic dance performed just after
you've accidentally walked through a spider web.

14. Beelzebug (n.): Satan in the form of a mosquito that gets into your bedroom at three in the morning and cannot be cast out.

15. Caterpallor (n.): The color you turn after finding half a grub in
the fruit you're eating.

And the pick of the literature:

16. Ignoranus (n): A person who's both stupid and an asshole.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oldkid on November 07, 2016, 10:39:27 PM
I lost.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on November 08, 2016, 04:41:07 AM
That is outstanding.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on November 09, 2016, 01:07:14 PM
Those are excellent. :)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on November 15, 2016, 03:11:09 PM
Do people call America "her" ?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Teproc on November 15, 2016, 03:24:52 PM
Do people call America "her" ?

Hah. I don't think so, but of course nouns are not gendered in English, so it wouldn't particularly make sense... now I can't remember if Germans do that. I don't think so, right ? And they have gendered nouns, though I guess they don't always genderify coutries... it is Die Schweiz though, so I guess the question would be for germanophone Swiss people.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on November 15, 2016, 03:30:45 PM
The Germans don't gender countries but they do make them plural sometimes. I think. Pity there is no resident German.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Teproc on November 15, 2016, 03:37:10 PM
I kinda count (lived in Germany as a kid, am vaguely fluent in German though I just don't practice it enough to really stay on that level), and I think goodguy lives in Germany as well ? In any case, they definitely gender some countries : Die Schweiz and Die Türkey (and that's definitely the feminine Die as opposed to the plural) but I don't think they'd push it to our level of referring to a country with "sie" or "er".
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on November 16, 2016, 11:49:03 AM
New word of the year from Oxford Dictionaries (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/word-of-the-year/word-of-the-year-2016): "post-truth"

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on November 16, 2016, 11:54:39 AM
Heh, deja vu of truthiness being Merriam-Webster's word of the year almost a decade ago.

What year was Brexit garbled into existence?

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: verbALs on November 16, 2016, 11:56:20 AM
Grexit came first but Germany decided they could squeeze a bit more cash out of them instead of kicking them out.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Teproc on November 16, 2016, 11:57:49 AM
Heh, deja vu of truthiness being Merriam-Webster's word of the year almost a decade ago.

What year was Brexit garbled into existence?

pixote

I wasn't a big fan of The Colbert Report, but that truthiness bit never ceases to be relevant. And it's a much better word than "post-fact", urgh.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on November 16, 2016, 12:15:43 PM
How can anyone not be a fan of the Report ?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: IDrinkYourMilkshake on December 12, 2016, 08:34:11 AM
I read this on the internet, and thought it hilarious. It was written in a letter regarding improving literacy standards in classrooms:

Quote from: TheInternet
For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" — bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez — tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.

 - Actual source: A letter to The Economist (16 January 1971), written by one M.J. Shields (or M.J. Yilz, by the end of the letter). The letter is quoted in full in one of Willard Espy's Words at Play books. This was a modified version of a piece "Meihem in ce Klasrum", published in the September 1946 issue of Astounding Science Fiction magazine.


I thought it was suitable for the 'Words and Grammar and Stuff' thread, because it's about Words and Grammar and Stuff.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on December 12, 2016, 09:36:31 AM
That's pretty great. "orxogrefkl" took me a second.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 12, 2016, 09:41:58 AM
I read this on the internet, and thought it hilarious. It was written in a letter regarding improving literacy standards in classrooms:

Quote from: TheInternet
For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" — bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez — tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.

 - Actual source: A letter to The Economist (16 January 1971), written by one M.J. Shields (or M.J. Yilz, by the end of the letter). The letter is quoted in full in one of Willard Espy's Words at Play books. This was a modified version of a piece "Meihem in ce Klasrum", published in the September 1946 issue of Astounding Science Fiction magazine.

By the end I was reading with a cockney accent. Burn them I say.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: IDrinkYourMilkshake on December 13, 2016, 12:29:34 PM
And then burn the ashes. Opinions lead to war.

I thought it sounded Afrikaner (?) by the end.

Made me chuckle, though.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 13, 2016, 12:54:44 PM
How bad is it to start a sentence with a preposition ?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on December 13, 2016, 05:03:05 PM
Grabbing a few novels off my shelf. First lines:

"Except for the Marabar Caves--and they were twenty miles off--the city of Chandrapore presents nothing extraordinary." A Passage to India, E. M. Forster

"During a portion of the first half of the present century, and more particularly during the latter part of it, there flourished and practised in the city of New York a physician who enjoyed perhaps an exceptional share of the considerations which, in the United States, has always been bestowed upon distinguished members of the medical profession." Washington Square, Henry James

"In these times of ours, though concerning the exact year there is no need to be precise, a boat of dirty and disreputable appearance, with two figures in it, floated on the Thames, between Southwark Bridge which is of iron, and London Bridge which is of stone, as an autumn evening was closing in." Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens

"In the days when the spinning-wheels hummed busily in the farmhouses--even great ladies, clothed in silk and threadlace, had their toy spinning-wheels of polished oak--there might be seen, in districts far away among the lanes, or deep in the bosom of the hills, certain pallid undersized men, who, by the side of brawny country-folk, looked like the remnants of a disinherited race." Silas Marner, George Eliot

So, not bad at all. :)

(Those Victorians and their lovely long sentence!)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Jeff Schroeck on December 13, 2016, 05:23:05 PM
It's also not actually bad to END them with one, either!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on December 13, 2016, 09:15:16 PM
It's also not actually bad to END them with one, either!
True!
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 14, 2016, 03:54:44 AM
Grabbing a few novels off my shelf. First lines:

Good to have teachers around. However...

It's also not actually bad to END them with one, either!

Let's not get crazy here.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on December 14, 2016, 12:26:05 PM
The Lexicon Valley podcast had a pretty great episode devoted to the "you can't end a sentence with preposition" thing:  link (http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/lexicon_valley/2012/02/lexicon_valley_why_we_think_we_can_t_end_a_sentence_with_a_preposition_.html)

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on December 15, 2016, 03:29:37 AM
Have podcasts gone too far ?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: St. Martin the Bald on December 15, 2016, 02:08:13 PM
They don't know what they're messing with.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: IDrinkYourMilkshake on January 02, 2017, 08:43:35 PM
The rise and fall of the ampersand:

http://blog.dictionary.com/ampersand/

 
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 03, 2017, 07:09:17 AM
I shall always stand by the ampersand.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: IDrinkYourMilkshake on January 03, 2017, 11:20:34 AM
I'm a big fan of the ampersand, very pleased to see it have something of a renaissance over the last year or so. I've started using it in anything handwritten, I'm hoping to completely phase it out of my handwriting by the end of the year. Although force of habit means it's still losing out to 'and' when I type.

It's such a cool little symbol:

&

Look at it!

Awesome.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 04, 2017, 04:48:21 AM
I am terrible at writing it but it features nicely on computer lists or titles. Does anyone actually use it in sentences ?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Teproc on January 04, 2017, 05:07:11 AM
I am terrible at writing it but it features nicely on computer lists or titles. Does anyone actually use it in sentences ?

Isn't it just "and" (or whichever equivalent thereof) when spoken ?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 04, 2017, 05:09:53 AM
I meant, do they use it in written sentences. Like: « IDYM, OAD & Teproc walk into a bar...»
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: IDrinkYourMilkshake on January 04, 2017, 05:45:38 AM
It's a difficult one to get used to writing, but I'm putting the practice in - 10,000 hours & all that. 4 hours a night gives me the perfect '&' by the time I'm 40. After that, learn the piano.

I think it's mostly used informally these days. Don't see it in literature much.

I don't think I would ever say "ampersand" in a sentence. Get my head kicked in.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on January 04, 2017, 08:31:03 AM
Business names love them an &.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: IDrinkYourMilkshake on January 04, 2017, 09:16:58 AM
They do, but I feel as though they don't really get it. Kinda like those people who wear Ramones or Rolling Stones t-shirts, without ever having listened to the music. It's all fashion, no passion.

F*ck those guys.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 04, 2017, 10:16:38 AM
Yeah, screw them for not having the appropriate reverence & understanding for a typographic symbol.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oldkid on January 04, 2017, 02:33:44 PM
It's like people who use the wrong font.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 04, 2017, 02:36:51 PM
oldkid, we will be waiting for your apology in the communal room. The admins have instructed me to tell you you are not to present yourself here before you have repented.

Now go, and think about what you've done.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oldkid on January 04, 2017, 02:42:16 PM
(http://hannahscupboard.com/pics/job-surrender.jpg)

I repent, O Mods most merciful, of my sins.  Please restore me....
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 04, 2017, 03:12:42 PM
Preachers* make the best confessions.

*I was going to write "Priests", but y'all are weird and protestantish and stuff.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on January 09, 2017, 10:28:40 PM
The ampersand does have this  (http://www.wga.org/the-guild/about-us/faq#credits4)specific Writers Guild of America use.

Quote from: wga.org
The word “and” designates that the writers wrote separately and an ampersand (“&”) denotes a writing team.


Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: chardy999 on January 10, 2017, 07:06:08 PM
The ampersand does have this  (http://www.wga.org/the-guild/about-us/faq#credits4)specific Writers Guild of America use.

Quote from: wga.org
The word “and” designates that the writers wrote separately and an ampersand (“&”) denotes a writing team.

I like that.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 11, 2017, 04:17:45 AM
Wonderful titbit for dinner parties.

#pretentiouslyyours
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: mañana on January 11, 2017, 10:19:04 PM
This  (http://www.filmspotting.net/forum/index.php?topic=2961.msg859834#msg859834)concludes today's installment of "shit ¡Keith! taught me like 5 years ago or something".
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 20, 2017, 06:23:46 AM
Is "snub" in some way connected to "snob" or is the similarity an accident of serendipity? If it is, why is there no "snob" verb? As in: I snobbed him.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on January 20, 2017, 06:54:11 AM
Snob - Origin uncertain, late 1700s: first used as a nickname for a cobbler or cobbler's apprentice, hence a townsman, someone of low class or lacking good breeding, commoner, hence someone who imitates persons of higher rank.

Snub - Middle English snibben, snubben, probably of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse snubba to scold, Swedish dialect snubba to reproach, cut off. First Known Use: 13th century

So no apparent connection, but perhaps "snob" was somehow born out of "snub", who is to say.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Knocked Out Loaded on January 20, 2017, 07:04:54 AM
From what I have heard snob should be a constriction of "sans noblesse" in French, meaning "without nobility".
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 20, 2017, 10:58:29 AM
Technically, snob was born out of the expression "sine nobilitate", which means just that, and was used at Eaton to make fun of the commoner students. I was wondering before if "snub" is a derivation, but apparently not.

Snub - Middle English snibben, snubben, probably of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse snubba to scold, Swedish dialect snubba to reproach, cut off. First Known Use: 13th century

A history degree you say? Gotta learn me some more history.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Corndog on January 20, 2017, 11:03:28 AM
It's called Google  ;)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 28, 2017, 05:58:52 AM
Pretty sure I know the answer to this, but let's say you have a proper noun, like a person's name, that happens to have to be spelled with minor case; when you start a sentence with that word, you must leave it minor cased, right?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on January 28, 2017, 06:40:40 AM
Yes, I think that would be the general practice. bell hooks would probably insist on it.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 28, 2017, 06:53:55 AM
Had to Google that.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 18, 2017, 03:18:02 PM
Noticed today, when catching up with Adam and Josh's La La Land review and there was a clip from the film, where Gosling says, something like, "No, I'm just an ass[bleep]."

My burning question about bleeping protocol and who decides and how: Why is the hole bleeped and not the ass?  Why not "[bleep]hole"?  Or is that done sometimes, too?  The ass part is ok on its own - I suppose by itself it'd never be bleeped (?) - but when you make it a compound word, it just gets . . . too graphic? 

   

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oldkid on February 18, 2017, 06:22:33 PM
And in the age of post-Butthole Surfers does it really matter?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Adam on February 18, 2017, 07:27:02 PM
Noticed today, when catching up with Adam and Josh's La La Land review and there was a clip from the film, where Gosling says, something like, "No, I'm just an ass[bleep]."

My burning question about bleeping protocol and who decides and how: Why is the hole bleeped and not the ass?  Why not "[bleep]hole"?  Or is that done sometimes, too?  The ass part is ok on its own - I suppose by itself it'd never be bleeped (?) - but when you make it a compound word, it just gets . . . too graphic? 

 
Sam should answer as he's making the calls but actually yeah, you can say ass on radio... you can't say asshole.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oneaprilday on February 18, 2017, 10:51:00 PM
And in the age of post-Butthole Surfers does it really matter?
;D  Probably not, no. 


Sam should answer as he's making the calls but actually yeah, you can say ass on radio... you can't say asshole.
Huh. Interesting.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on February 19, 2017, 08:07:05 AM
When uttering a word ending in "s" to which you attach a possessive apostrophe, do you pronounce a doubled "s" or trust your interlocutor to understand your meaning?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oldkid on February 19, 2017, 11:11:08 AM
As a person whose last name ends with an "s" you'd think I'd have a definitive answer.   But I don't.

In the sentence, pointing at an object "That's the Kimes' ", I would pronounce the double "s".

In the sentence, "That's the Kimes' house", I wouldn't.   And I have no idea why.

I am shamed at my inconsistency.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: MartinTeller on February 20, 2017, 01:17:08 AM
Kimes's is correct

Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on February 20, 2017, 09:32:20 AM
Except that you don't actually say « That's the Kimes' house » but « That's the Kimes house » do you? Isn't the last name there being used as an epithet?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: MartinTeller on February 20, 2017, 09:53:45 AM
Yeah, I think in most cases you'd say "That's the Kimes house." And yet you'd also say "We went over to the Kimes's for dinner." What a horrible language, how did any of us ever learn it?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on February 20, 2017, 09:57:20 AM
There is a rule that says if the word following the possessive stats with an s, you get rid of the middle school. Kimes' soup, for example.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: pixote on February 20, 2017, 10:00:07 AM
Don't get rid of middle school. Our children still need to learn about words and grammar and stuff.

pixote
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on February 20, 2017, 10:02:37 AM
What's an SEO?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on February 20, 2017, 09:10:42 PM
Search engine optimization?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on February 20, 2017, 09:12:06 PM
It is that. It is also what my dumb phone corrected my attempt at hitting a singular letter into.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on February 20, 2017, 09:23:46 PM
Don't get rid of middle school. Our children still need to learn about words and grammar and stuff.

pixote

Don't say "and stuff." Just say "words and grammar."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Sam the Cinema Snob on February 20, 2017, 09:29:11 PM
 :D

Post of the day right there.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on February 21, 2017, 05:06:58 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/XS5LK.gif)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on March 07, 2017, 04:30:43 AM
Can I compose words like frontline and gruntwork or should I use hyphens instead?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on March 07, 2017, 10:14:33 AM
You do you.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on March 07, 2017, 01:42:22 PM
MY priest is very much against that sort of practice.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on April 22, 2017, 05:35:36 AM
I heard a Brit on the tely use Twitter as a verb instead of the usual tweet that you hear on American television and it dawned on me that he was not wrong to do so, odd as it might have sounded. My question is this: wouldn't that phrasing actually be more correct than saying tweet since tweeting would have to be taken metaphorically (or whatever that figure of style is) ?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 06, 2018, 11:55:38 AM
When I was in highschool I once saw an Italian friend read a book and looked over her shoulder and started reading a passage out loud from behind her to annoy her. The book was in her native language so she was surprised I spoke Italian. I didn't, but the nice thing with Italian is, if you know the rules you can sound pretty much any word. That's true to a large extent of most Latin languages. The French try to make it more difficult by changing the sounds of vowels but there are always rules to it all, no matter how many accents they add. German may be a collection of exceptions with some grammar to the side, but reading it is usually not a problem (barring the abundance of bizarre associations).

Not so in English. If you don't know how a word is meant to be read you often cannot read it properly. Every time I read fantasy I find out towards the middle of the book that I have been getting half the characters' names wrong for hundreds of pages. I'm still reeling from Jordan's Seanchans from four years ago.

Your language is dumb and you should all feel bad.

</rant>
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Teproc on January 06, 2018, 12:09:27 PM
Yep, French pronunciation is very complex, but eventually it makes sense. Present me with a word I've never heard of and I should be able to pronounce it. English, though it has a much simpler grammar and overall structure (which is very convenient in terms of making it an international language, something I wish our country would stop whining about and fighting against in the EU), is a nightmare to pronounce. New rules for every word.

This is the "commiserating about English" thread, right ?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 06, 2018, 12:49:02 PM
As far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on January 06, 2018, 04:32:32 PM
I’m not sure there is a correct way to pronounce words in English.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 06, 2018, 05:50:04 PM
That's what my Irish friends keep telling me.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oldkid on January 06, 2018, 09:02:50 PM
When we were teaching our kids how to read phonetically, we stumbled across a resource that said that there were just more than a hundred phonetic rules for English that works in every case.

They lied.  We found exceptions to many of the rules they stated were absolute.  Even so, the rules were filled with exceptions and strange, sometimes contradictory, language.

Let's face it.  English borrows words from every language on earth, calls every new word it's own, and then attempts to keep the pronunciation rules, but messes it up, so we have a new word with a different pronunciation and a different meaning than the original context.

English speakers are like pirates that steal gold from everyone, dye it red so it can only be used by other pirates, which makes it unusable for most of the world, but since everyone has pirates, red gold ends up being the most used currency, even though it belongs nowhere.

English is both horrible and wonderful.  And I'm glad I started learning pronouncing it from birth.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: DarkeningHumour on January 07, 2018, 04:57:06 AM
Meh, it's very easy to pick up.

Is phonetic teaching the method that works great but schools don't use or the shitty method that's the norm in most schools?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oldkid on January 07, 2018, 11:56:41 AM
Pretty much.  Most schools in the US use a combination of phonics and other methods, even speed reading.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on April 08, 2019, 09:20:59 PM
http://freerice.com

It does get harder after a while.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: smirnoff on September 28, 2019, 11:45:07 PM
Did everybody already know it's "bury the lede" not "bury the lead"?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on September 29, 2019, 04:54:48 AM
I do, but I was a journalism major for a hot minute.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on October 04, 2019, 05:42:50 PM
Hi all, knowing how many writers we have around here, I'd love your feedback on this:

Which is a better?

Every day by my choices I write my story.

OR

Every day my choices write my story.
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Junior on October 04, 2019, 11:02:11 PM
First one has some strange but acceptable grammar. Second one does have the agency problem a bit. If you're stuck with the every day phrasing, I'd stick with the first. If not, I'd go with something like "I write my story every day [with/by] my choices."
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: Bondo on October 05, 2019, 12:13:42 AM
How about “Every day, by my choices, I write my story”?
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on October 05, 2019, 12:43:39 AM
I was using every day to signify that every choice matters, big or small, daily choices ... every one matters.

I think the second one is a little clumsy but I take your point that it shows more ownership or agency than the first one. Also the commas do give it more clarity.

I thought "Every day my choices write my story" was poetic but maybe not. I also got on a track substituting decisions for choices, but in the end decided choices seemed more moment to moment and urgent than decisions.

I'll think about it some more. Thank you for the feedback.

(I'm printing this on a plaque for a high school freshman.)
Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: saltine on October 05, 2019, 06:45:53 PM
I took on board all you said and ended up with:

With every choice I write my story.

Thank you for the help!


Title: Re: Words and Grammar and Stuff
Post by: oldkid on October 09, 2019, 03:14:30 PM
Has anyone used Grammarly?  It is helpful or just a nuisance?