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Filmspotting Message Boards => Movie Talk => Polls => Topic started by: zarodinu on July 04, 2008, 12:51:30 PM

Title: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: zarodinu on July 04, 2008, 12:51:30 PM
I was always fascinated by animation and the possibilities it gives an artist, and it seems to me that we are living through a time of great change in this field.  With Disney closing down its last traditional animation studio, and Pixar producing hit after hit, is there any future for traditional animation?  Will Ghibli carry the fire of this disapearing artform?  With the advent of motion capture technology will animation and live action blend into a single medium?  Is there any use for animation when CGI lets live action directors depict anything they can imagine in photorealistic quality?   

     
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: chesterfilms on July 04, 2008, 01:39:39 PM
disney will continue to do traditionally animated (2-D) films. the frog princess will come out in 2009.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: zarodinu on July 04, 2008, 09:45:25 PM
disney will continue to do traditionally animated (2-D) films. the frog princess will come out in 2009.

I am glad to hear that, I thought they were all done.  So strange, they made a bunch of great films in the 90's, and just sort of died off.  It would be a real crime if 2D animation went the way of silent movies, computer animation is good but it is different, it can never replace traditional stuff.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: 1SO on July 05, 2008, 12:29:14 AM
So strange, they made a bunch of great films in the 90's, and just sort of died off.  It would be a real crime if 2D animation went the way of silent movies, computer animation is good but it is different, it can never replace traditional stuff.

Not so strange.  Jeffrey Katzenberg deserves a lot of credit for putting together an amazingly talented team of writers, directors and musicians in the late 80's.  He faltered with Oliver & Company, but shepherded Disney's 2nd Golden Age with The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin and The Lion King.  It was during The Lion King that Jeffrey had his major falling out with Disney Chief Michael Eisner.  He left and we got some projects that Jeffrey started up: Pocahontas, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Hercules, Mulan and Tarzan.

Eisner replaced Katzenberg with a strong belief in using a studio formula instead of creative artists.  This led to Atlantis, Treasure Planet, Brother Bear and Home on the Range.  He blamed the failure of his films on the belief that people were no longer interested in 2D animation.

John Lasseter is bringing back 2D with animators Ron Clements and John Musker.  They had done The Little Mermaid, Aladdin and Hercules.  They also did Treasure Planet, but left the Disney company soon afterwards because they were handcuffed by Eisner's "Studio before Art" attitude.  (Their pitch on the film was VERY different.)  Lasseter convinced the duo that they would have complete artistic freedom, and he's keeping to his word.

By the way, I voted 'None.'  My favorite type of animation is whatever style is best for the story being told.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: ma˝ana on July 05, 2008, 12:45:50 AM
I'm not really into animation so I went with the type that I have put the most time in with ---- the Simpsons.

But I think I'm up for all types --- except motion capture.   
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: FroHam X on July 05, 2008, 12:52:17 AM
I would have voted none except I have a passionate dislike for nearly all anime (there are some notable exceptions) and since I prefer 2D animation to 3D purely from an artistic perspective I had to vote Western Animation.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: zarodinu on July 05, 2008, 01:48:55 AM
I would have voted none except I have a passionate dislike for nearly all anime (there are some notable exceptions) and since I prefer 2D animation to 3D purely from an artistic perspective I had to vote Western Animation.

Mind elaborating why you hate anime?  Is it just cause most of it is crap (excluding Ghibli and a few great action flicks)?  Or do you have a problem with the actual look of the anime? 

I'm not really into animation so I went with the type that I have put the most time in with ---- the Simpsons.
But I think I'm up for all types --- except motion capture.  

I also have a fondness for the roughness of modern stylized animation, loved South Park for that reason.  I agree with your distate for motion capture, I am afraid that little technology will eventually kill both live action and animated blockbuster films, besides Gollum, I am yet to see it put to good use. 

By the way, I voted 'None.'  My favorite type of animation is whatever style is best for the story being told.

Thanks for clarifying the shinanigans at Disney, I had a feeling it was something that could be blamed on the suites.  I agree with you that animation should match the style, still, something about traditional animation makes it special for me, given good material it enchances the expirience instead of just complementing it. 
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: íKeith! on July 05, 2008, 02:09:21 AM
like 1strong I've found animation to be form following function for me.  I could really care less about how the anthropomorphic creature is rendered as long as the writing behind it is damn fine.  I spend the most time with modern.  But for the poll if I were just watching colors on a screen i'd like them to be digital 3D (or atleast that cool process they use for Futurama and The Simpsons Moviw.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: FroHam X on July 05, 2008, 04:31:34 PM
I would have voted none except I have a passionate dislike for nearly all anime (there are some notable exceptions) and since I prefer 2D animation to 3D purely from an artistic perspective I had to vote Western Animation.

Mind elaborating why you hate anime?  Is it just cause most of it is crap (excluding Ghibli and a few great action flicks)?  Or do you have a problem with the actual look of the anime?

It is mostly that much of the anime out there is pure garbage. But I also generally can't stand the style of stoytelling. There seems to be an idea within the anime community that the more complex and incoherent a plot is the better it is. I call bullsh8t on that. I also sometimes have a problem with the animation style itself, but not generally. Usually when I have a problem with the animation its a particularly bad anime where the style appears to come from the artists being lazy. I do question though, why is it that most anime seems to have a single style of art and animation. It's like you could pop a character out of any anime film and put them in another and nobody would notice that the art on that character was not from that film. Even western traditional animation is generally varied greatly from film to film. And if you don't believe me then try to do what I said about exchanging characters between any two Disney films and youll see just how varied the styles are.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: duder on July 05, 2008, 06:12:13 PM
After watching The Adventures of Prince Achmed, I've come to the conclusion that silhouette animation is pretty awesome.

(http://i26.tinypic.com/fbjqep.jpg)

(http://i27.tinypic.com/692oif.jpg)
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: gateway on July 06, 2008, 06:07:25 PM

By the way, I voted 'None.'  My favorite type of animation is whatever style is best for the story being told.


Agreed. I really can't think of movies like Princess Mononoke, Finding Nemo or The Nightmare Before Christmas being done in any other style than their original creation (though there are exceptions, I think Ratatouille actually would have been interesting if done in classical western animation).

What I've noticed is that there seems to be a lot of blending between traditional western animation and Japanese anime recently, mostly in television (the show Avatar is the best example I can think of). While computer animation is definitely predominant now, I think those still working in more traditional mediums will increasingly move towards this hybrid style.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: spooncivicR on July 07, 2008, 01:05:15 AM
I would have voted none except I have a passionate dislike for nearly all anime (there are some notable exceptions) and since I prefer 2D animation to 3D purely from an artistic perspective I had to vote Western Animation.

Mind elaborating why you hate anime?  Is it just cause most of it is crap (excluding Ghibli and a few great action flicks)?  Or do you have a problem with the actual look of the anime?

It is mostly that much of the anime out there is pure garbage. But I also generally can't stand the style of stoytelling. There seems to be an idea within the anime community that the more complex and incoherent a plot is the better it is. I call bullsh8t on that. I also sometimes have a problem with the animation style itself, but not generally. Usually when I have a problem with the animation its a particularly bad anime where the style appears to come from the artists being lazy. I do question though, why is it that most anime seems to have a single style of art and animation. It's like you could pop a character out of any anime film and put them in another and nobody would notice that the art on that character was not from that film. Even western traditional animation is generally varied greatly from film to film. And if you don't believe me then try to do what I said about exchanging characters between any two Disney films and youll see just how varied the styles are.

Just to stick up for anime a little I would like to point out that most of everything (movies, books, television, ect) is garbage.  You should not hold Home on the Range against Fantasia and likewise drivel like Odin does not diminish the greatness of Mind Game.  I am not saying you have to like anime but, if you want to concentrate on the worst of anything it is going to be awful.  I would have liked that poll to include European/Russian animation as a choice but whatever.   

Now someone needs to justify the use of MoCap for anything...
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: Tequila on July 07, 2008, 02:13:12 AM
Yeah, especially considering that Anime as a style is put to a much broader use than Western Animation and has a much higher output, I don't think that's exactly fair. Just imagine Pixar would produce 20% of all Hollywood films, there's bound to be some lesser work there (and that's not even counting TV, where most of the real bad stuff comes from).
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: Think_Long on July 07, 2008, 09:24:30 AM
I also think that a lot of "Western" and "Eastern" animation techniques are blending together.  I also hesitate to classify any of the Ghibli work as anime per se, because I think each film owes so much to the director.  We can always tell a Takahata or a Miyazaki film, and I don't know if we'd call them an anime style if they weren't from Japan.

Speaking of the blending of styles, does anyone remember the trend around the turn of this century when western companies were jumping on to the anime bandwagon, thanks to pokemon? I can't think of any specific shows at the moment really, but from what I've seen of the new spiderman cartoon, it is definitely cribbing on the anime style.  also, wasn't there a re-hashed looney toons with creepy anime bugs and daffy?
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: FroHam X on July 07, 2008, 12:40:28 PM
I also think that a lot of "Western" and "Eastern" animation techniques are blending together.  I also hesitate to classify any of the Ghibli work as anime per se, because I think each film owes so much to the director.  We can always tell a Takahata or a Miyazaki film, and I don't know if we'd call them an anime style if they weren't from Japan.

See. This is where I stand. I don't consider Miyazaki as an anime filmmaker. He does his own unique films with their own unique style that is influenced by anime, but clearly infleunced by classic western animation. I tend to be more annoyed by conventional anime. As I said, there are notable exceptions within anime, but I think most, if not all, of those exceptions are cases where the filmmaker is trying to do something different from every other anime out there. And in all of those cases (Miyazaki, for example) there tends to be a strong narrative or story being told.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: spooncivicR on July 07, 2008, 08:03:06 PM
If Studio Ghibli is not "anime", the word loses all utility.  Anime is not a style.  In Japan they refer to all animation as anime so we are not using that definition and traditionally in the west we use the term to refer to Japanese animation that is intended for a Japanese audience.   If you only like Kurosawa films and not those of other Japanese directors, you would not try to make an argument that his film are not Japanese. 

There are more animation directors in Japan that have a personally unique style than just Takahata and Miyazaki.  Satoshi Kon and Mamoru Oshii come to mind and are well know in the US.  Koji Yamamura, Koji Morimoto, and Mamoru Hosoda are all gifted directors that have not gotten much attention much attention outside of Japan (although Yamamura did have one of his shorts nominated for an Oscar). 

There is nothing wrong with only liking a few animated films from Japan but, it is foolish (and a little jingoistic) to try and say that the ones you like are somehow not Japanese...   
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: Think_Long on July 07, 2008, 08:28:52 PM
like it or not, the term 'anime' does come attached with certain stylistic assumptions. now, being obviously relatively unfamiliar with 99% of the subject material, i can not speak as expertly as i would like, but when has that ever stopped me?  my main point is thus: if we accept the stereotypical idea of anime, which we may not but it is all i know, then we would most likely never categorize most of the ghibli films as such.  it is their japanese origin that pigeon-holes them into that category, when i'm not sure that they should be.

also, i don't mean to malign anime as a whole, but it gets complicated when the term comes wrapped up with so many assumptions: big eyes, small mouth, flashing backgrounds, and fountains for tears are some of the ones that come to mind. i know that that isn't what anime is at all, but in my mind (and i think to most people's minds) it is exactly like that, and ghibli would never fit those ill-educated, yet broadly accepted parameters. 
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: FroHam X on July 07, 2008, 09:11:20 PM
like it or not, the term 'anime' does come attached with certain stylistic assumptions. now, being obviously relatively unfamiliar with 99% of the subject material, i can not speak as expertly as i would like, but when has that ever stopped me?  my main point is thus: if we accept the stereotypical idea of anime, which we may not but it is all i know, then we would most likely never categorize most of the ghibli films as such.  it is their japanese origin that pigeon-holes them into that category, when i'm not sure that they should be.

also, i don't mean to malign anime as a whole, but it gets complicated when the term comes wrapped up with so many assumptions: big eyes, small mouth, flashing backgrounds, and fountains for tears are some of the ones that come to mind. i know that that isn't what anime is at all, but in my mind (and i think to most people's minds) it is exactly like that, and ghibli would never fit those ill-educated, yet broadly accepted parameters. 

Yes. This is exactly what I mean. Sure, I suppose anime refers to all animation from Japan, but I never saw it that way. I have always considered anime to be Japanese animation of a particular style and attatched to certain conventions. And using my own definition I wouldn't consider Ghibli or Miyazaki films as 'anime'.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: spooncivicR on July 07, 2008, 09:39:49 PM
Just for giggles, will someone provide me with an example of "anime".  I know that may sound like I am just being a jerk but, if I asked the average Joe on the street I am sure they would either say Dragonball or Spirited Away.  I would just like to know if we are talking things like Akira or PokÚmon. 

It is clear that we are talking about different things on this one.  I would liken it to comic book movies in that I include things like Ghost World while many others would limited it to just super hero movies...

Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: FroHam X on July 07, 2008, 10:14:34 PM
Pokemon is something I would consider anime, but that's obviously lesser anime. Just generally crap. But what I was talking about would fit under the lines of Akira. Which I hated by the way.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: DarkeningHumour on July 12, 2018, 06:52:11 AM
Do they even make traditional animation anymore?
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: MartinTeller on July 12, 2018, 08:53:49 AM
Where's the option for silhouette animation? Lotte Reiniger FTW.

EDIT: oh I see, duder beat me by 10 years (http://forum.filmspotting.net/index.php?topic=3948.msg126768#msg126768)...
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: 1SO on July 12, 2018, 08:59:39 AM
Do they even make traditional animation anymore?
Teen Titans Go! To the Movies opens this month.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: DarkeningHumour on July 12, 2018, 09:08:58 AM
Please never mention that series to me again.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: oldkid on July 12, 2018, 12:02:08 PM
Thanks for calling this forward, Martin.  I never voted.

Oh, look: I win!
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: DarkeningHumour on July 12, 2018, 12:06:20 PM
Thanks for calling this forward, Martin.

Who told you my real name?
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: oldkid on July 12, 2018, 12:08:59 PM
Thanks for calling this forward, Martin.

Who told you my real name?

Sorry for the error, Daryl.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: DarkeningHumour on July 12, 2018, 12:09:53 PM
No problem, Brad.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: Teproc on July 12, 2018, 08:46:16 PM
Thanks for calling this forward, Martin.

Who told you my real name?

Sorry for the error, Daryl.

I think you meant Jonathan. Or possibly Benedict.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: DarkeningHumour on July 13, 2018, 04:09:01 AM
You spelled Sherlock wrong.
Title: Re: Favorite Type of Animation and Future of the Artform Thread
Post by: Dave the Necrobumper on October 29, 2019, 10:55:53 PM
While my favourite animated film is Spirited Away, the quality of the story is not what I am voting on, rather the actual style. So ranked it will be:

Claymation
Anime
Motion Capture
Computer Animation
Modern Stylised
Western Traditional

I still love all the styles