Author Topic: The Kings and Queen of Extreme: Greenaway, von Trier and Breillat  (Read 17036 times)

Bondo

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Re: The Kings and Queen of Extreme: Greenaway, von Trier and Breillat
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2011, 10:27:09 PM »
Romance (1999)

This was a tough one to get my head around. Like I often do, I turned to the internet to look for some other perspectives to see if any of them jogged anything for me. And yet these reviews, namely Roger Ebert's, expressed a similar level of unknowing. It is a film that seems to be saying things through its fairly direct narration/dialogue about the nature of female desire, but it never quite formulates.

Caroline Ducey plays Marie, whose husband refuses to be intimate with her, which only seems to drive her interest in him to greater extremes. Meanwhile, she goes out to seek sexual fulfillment, a bit unsure of what that means. She shows a distinct lack of emotional connection with those she experiments with. It has vestiges of a Madonna-Whore complex or perhaps this lack of feeling  through the process is symbolic of a quest for discovering her orgasm. There also is a conflict between loathing the feeling of being objectified and thriving on it.

I have no problem with the fact that the explicit nature of the sex here isn't sexy. But the coldness combined with the extent to which the scenes are drawn out and often covered with kind of monotonic inner monologue makes it a bit lifeless for spells. That's right, there is naked sex stuff going on and I'm rather bored. Though there are a few particular scenes where the symbolic aspects did more to engage my interests as Breillat showed a bit more skill.

Ultimately Roger Ebert recommended the film even though he claims not to have particularly liked it, based on the potential concepts being discussed. I'm a bit more of a stickler for feeling, not so much entertainment but engagement, and ultimately this left me a bit too cold and confused, even though I see interesting themes as well. It reminded me of Breillat's later film Anatomy of Hell in many ways, yet that film engaged me more.

2/5

Bondo

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Re: The Kings and Queen of Extreme: Greenaway, von Trier and Breillat
« Reply #61 on: November 22, 2011, 12:03:10 AM »
The Idiots (1998)

As one of the main people involved in the Dogme95 movement, it is strange that Lars von Trier has only made one film as part of the movement, this being that film. This is my second film under that movement, following The Celebration (I smell a marathon) and as the opening shot has music playing with no clear source within the film, I was already calling von Trier on violations of the manifesto. Such is my familiarity with the rules. Other things, to which von Trier, in the tradition of Dogme95, confessed would be impossible to discern just from watching.

Anyway, the film starts with Karen sitting down to a meal at a fairly fancy restaurant and revealing that she is of limited means. She sees another table where two seemingly developmentally disabled men are dining with a female caretaker and when their behavior starts getting out of control the waiter ejects them and through developments, Karen comes along (the better to avoid paying for the bill) and falls into their group. We find out that they are a group that practices "spazzing" or acting like they have a disability, mental or physical.

Now, you can think these characters are despicable for what could be seen as mocking performances or you can see them as getting at a real social issue about the treatment of those with disabilities but the film itself I think is effective in broaching the topic at an angle. Yet the broader statement is about shunning the conventions and expectations that make us unhappy. In this way it isn't so different from Trainspotting a couple years earlier, though they turned to heroin. But as can be expected, this sort of idealism runs head-on against real life concerns. I also see some trends within the group that are explored in more detail in Together a couple years later and the way a group of idealists like this can often come to conflict, especially when some aren't pure enough for others.

This film certainly qualifies for the marathon through its inclusion of tons of nudity (full frontal from vitally every main actor and actress) including one brief scene of explicit sex (using body doubles in contravention of Dogme95). Yet this mature content almost seems a bit passe compared to the extremeness or rudeness of the general concept. On the other hand, I've never seen so many boom mics fall into frame so this film is extreme in the roughness of the filmmaking as well I suppose.

The funny story here is that Mark Kermode, a reviewer I generally find myself agreeing with, actually stood up after the Cannes screening and shouted "It is shit" in broken French, which I guess is part of why he's got a fairly rough relationship with the Cannes festival (something that von Trier himself now can claim). But in the case of The Idiots, I greatly disagree with the good doctor. I found this an ultimately fairly charming bit of filmmaking with many a touching moment fit in among the nonsense. It is my new favorite von Trier.

5/5

MartinTeller

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Re: The Kings and Queen of Extreme: Greenaway, von Trier and Breillat
« Reply #62 on: November 22, 2011, 01:38:58 AM »
Still haven't seen that one, but it's been on my list for ages.

Lobby

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Re: The Kings and Queen of Extreme: Greenaway, von Trier and Breillat
« Reply #63 on: November 22, 2011, 02:33:01 AM »
I watched The Idiots as it came out and as far as I recall I liked it. I had honestly forgotten about that I'd seen it until you wrote about it now.

Those Dogma movies make a bit of a blur to be honest. I remember that I liked them quite a bit. (And I'm not yet tired of shaky cams!)

The one that stood out most to me was The Celebration. But I wouldn't mind making a revisit to The Idiots.
In the name of my von Trier love.
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Bondo

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Re: The Kings and Queen of Extreme: Greenaway, von Trier and Breillat
« Reply #64 on: November 22, 2011, 07:33:14 AM »
Yeah, I was a fan of The Celebration as well so Dogme is 2 for 2. A wrote about my thoughts of the movement itself in my review of The Celebration and have to say I'm generally on board with the idea, especially things like no artificial sounds as I've been finding scores and stuff really grating lately.

It's either The Idiots or Dogville for me. So... agreement!

Dogville is the next von Trier in the marathon (the last, having skipped the rest of his first trilogy) so we shall see.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 07:42:29 AM by Bondo »

worm@work

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Re: The Kings and Queen of Extreme: Greenaway, von Trier and Breillat
« Reply #65 on: November 22, 2011, 10:29:31 AM »
I found this an ultimately fairly charming bit of filmmaking with many a touching moment fit in among the nonsense. It is my new favorite von Trier.

5/5

When we agree, we really agree :). This is likely my favorite von Trier (like fliger, I too go back and forth between this one and Dogville).

Quote from: Bondo
Yet the broader statement is about shunning the conventions and expectations that make us unhappy.
I completely agree. To me the film is more about rebelling against societal conventions, in general, rather than about how society treats the disabled, specifically. What the idiots are doing is essentially rebelling against society's rules of conduct. Interestingly, society treats them sympathetically when it's not in the joke but once it's evident what it is they are upto, there's anger and lack of tolerance.

It has also always struck me as being a commentary/critique of the Dogme manifesto itself but maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Loving this marathon, Bondo :)!

Bondo

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Re: The Kings and Queen of Extreme: Greenaway, von Trier and Breillat
« Reply #66 on: November 22, 2011, 01:03:06 PM »
Loving this marathon, Bondo :)!

Me too. Now I need to think about what other directors to seek out for this sort of cinema.

MartinTeller

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Re: The Kings and Queen of Extreme: Greenaway, von Trier and Breillat
« Reply #67 on: November 22, 2011, 01:32:50 PM »
Loving this marathon, Bondo :)!

Me too. Now I need to think about what other directors to seek out for this sort of cinema.

Takashi Miike
Pier Paolo Pasolini
David Cronenberg
Dusan Makavejev
Jesus Franco (*from what I've heard, I've never seen his work)
Nagisa Oshima
Tinto Brass

1SO

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Re: The Kings and Queen of Extreme: Greenaway, von Trier and Breillat
« Reply #68 on: November 22, 2011, 01:36:24 PM »
Me too. Now I need to think about what other directors to seek out for this sort of cinema.

Ken Russell
Paul Verhoeven
Noribumi Suzuki or Toshiya Fujita

Bondo

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Re: The Kings and Queen of Extreme: Greenaway, von Trier and Breillat
« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2011, 12:37:34 AM »
Baise Moi (2000)

This film, part of the new French extremity, was added simply for its reputation. This is a reputation more for its content than its quality. Violent and featuring explicit sex, it is co-directed by a porn director and stars a number of porn stars. It partly begs the question of whether being written and directed by women, it avoids the possibility of being misogynist. It does after all almost delight in its opening in the violence and rape of its female characters.

You've got two women, one a prostitute and the other an occasional porn actress who end up killing someone close to them and going on the run. I suppose this could have been some feminist revenge fantasy the way Inglourious Basterds is Jewish revenge fantasy, but the violence is so non-discriminating and pointless. It also lacks Tarantino's skill as a director and a writer. It also lacks particularly  talented actors. This makes even the lowliest of Breillat, von Trier and Greenaway seem a bit more friendly.

It does start feeling marginally better later in the film as it gets away from the murders that are contraindicative of the feminist message of taking on the men that abuse, rape and subjugate women. One does see a glimmer of a film that could have been but it continue to mix potentially awesome grindhouse filmmaking with muddled thematic material. That this film started actually winning me over slightly is I suppose testament to that promise.

Ultimately, this film seems to be lost between two worlds. It doesn't have a useful enough narrative to qualify as a good legitimate film, but it is surely too violent to be tolerable as a pornographic film (plus by that standard it would have lousy sex scenes). I'm not sure what audience would delight in such filmmaking at the end of the day.

1/5