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Author Topic: General Music talk  (Read 83319 times)

Bondo

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Re: General Music talk
« Reply #700 on: January 17, 2021, 12:57:56 PM »
Music in a language you don't understand is basically classical music.

Eric/E.T.

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Re: General Music talk
« Reply #701 on: January 17, 2021, 04:10:13 PM »
Ye, no.
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FLYmeatwad

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Re: General Music talk
« Reply #702 on: January 17, 2021, 05:36:47 PM »
Because I primarily listen to music for the lyrics. While that has softened some over the years, and even some of my favorite artists are more about the delivery than the raw lyricism, but the words are still my primary driving force when I listen. I typically won't listen to all instrumental music for the same reason, there's too much ambiguity and feels like a waste of time to me. Spent about 4-5 years trying to learn Italian, but I just don't think my brain is wired to absorb Romance languages, or wasn't when it was more malleable, the older I get the more difficult I imagine it becomes, so when the lyrics are incomprehensible to me I have very little interest in it, as my entry point is almost entirely closed in these cases.

EDIT: Didn't realize Bondo got to it first, but that's largely right. There's little difference to me between listening to that new Selena Gomez song and listened to classical music. Though I'd give the decisive edge to Selena, as I realize there are at least lyrics there, and also, like I said, I enjoy her singing, while instruments on their own have little appeal. Even visuals can't save classical music though, as evidenced by The Worst 'Film' ever made: Fantasia.

Electronic music becomes a tricky one to deal with, as the DJ movie with Efron explained why it 'works' and also I get the appeal of using it in Spring Breakers/a real life context like that, but don't see myself listening to it on my own time. Even the DJ Snake album and Jamie xx one I'd cherry-pick the songs that had features on them because that's where the life of the song is found (though both have some pretty cool instrumental only ones too, especially the xx album).
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 05:44:11 PM by FLYmeatwad »

Eric/E.T.

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Re: General Music talk
« Reply #703 on: January 17, 2021, 05:58:55 PM »
I don't think either of you have taken music theory or played an instrument, if you think classical music and a pop song with lyrics in a language you don't understand is the same thing. Generally, I take any points either of you put forth, but this is just ignorance.

I get the listening to music for lyrics part, that was one of the reasons I got into hip-hop in the first place, and also a reason I cannot get with non-lyrical hip-hop music. Of course, I'm a proponent of ambiguity, as well. There is not purpose in anything, our lives are not even endowed with any particular purpose. The more concrete, the more appearance of truth, while actually being all but devoid of the truth. We have a better grasp of the universe than our own consciousnesses. To express our own consciousnesses takes more than what feeble, limited language can express.

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Bondo

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Re: General Music talk
« Reply #704 on: January 17, 2021, 06:34:35 PM »
I consider opera to be classical music even though it has singing (generally in languages I don’t speak). When I said basically like classical music I mean the commonality is that the lyrics are irrelevant. Once you stop trying to derive meaning from vocals it is just another tonal instrument layered in. At that point my appreciation will be entirely on the overall musical vibe. This is in contrast to English-language songs where there are mediocre songs musically that stand out on the basis of the words. It gives them a second path to success that classical/non-English songs don’t have. Thus all else equal I’ll like more of them.

FLYmeatwad

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Re: General Music talk
« Reply #705 on: January 17, 2021, 08:34:33 PM »
I didn't realize you were #TeamFLY on this one, Bondo.

Definitely have never played a musical instrument (well, a little harmonica, but was not good at it), but I'm pretty open about the fact that a lot of instrumental only work just sounds like noise to me, it's like with paintings and stuff like that, the nuance of shading it something I generally can see to an extent, but the minor differences are generally lost on me and it all looks relatively like it's most basic form (whether that be red or a guitar or whatever).

Lyrics provide a backbone, evoking poetry, which is where the listener's subjectivity intersects with the intentions of the artist, and thus meaning, or even purpose, is formed. Feel like that's the case regardless of medium (though more dynamic visual ones like games or film can tell their stories or prod at theme without language because there's a lot more going on), but music without lyrics, to me, is largely an exercise in futility and becomes meaninglessly lost in the subjectivity, or specialized in a way (that is to say theoretical, or requiring a specialized language to discuss it) that is isolating and keeps me at a distance regardless as I didn't study music theory. Who is to tell me that a low quiet building drum evokes terror or fear or a call to action if I listen to it and experience sadness or excitement or unfathomable joy? The person with the knowledge of theory, I suppose, but is that just not an agreed upon subjectivity from the elites? FLY certainly can't say (or could, though is tired), but either way it hold little allure to me. There's no world in which any of Beethoven or Mozart's works are objectively better than "Picacho" by Young Thug, unless the person doesn't speak English, in which case I suppose that song is lost on them as well.

The only good classical music is John Cage's 4'33".

jdc

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Re: General Music talk
« Reply #706 on: January 17, 2021, 09:36:46 PM »
Who is to tell me that a low quiet building drum evokes terror or fear or a call to action if I listen to it and experience sadness or excitement or unfathomable joy?

I certainly don’t understand music theory and often will misunderstand the creators intent, regardless of medium or words or not, but that doesn’t remove how it makes me feel. I don’t need to need to be able to talk about it intelligently to personally appreciate it. 

I mean, if you feel sadness or excitement or unfathomable joy, isn’t that something than you can appreciate?  If you just hear random noise and don’t feel anything, then I understand dismissing it.

I love instrumental jazz and classical - but don’t pretend to try to discuss it at any deep level
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Eric/E.T.

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Re: General Music talk
« Reply #707 on: January 18, 2021, 12:25:22 AM »
There's no world in which any of Beethoven or Mozart's works are objectively better than "Picacho" by Young Thug, unless the person doesn't speak English, in which case I suppose that song is lost on them as well.

There is a post somewhere in me that is very, very mean about this. But, no thanks. It's a waste of words at this point.

I will say, you are doing everything besides just saying "It's all relative." If that's the case, then your whole "hot take/unpopular opinion" thing rather vanishes. Saying something is "good" or "bad" becomes meaningless when it's all subjective.

If you just hear random noise and don’t feel anything, then I understand dismissing it.

I love instrumental jazz and classical - but don’t pretend to try to discuss it at any deep level

I don't either, and I tend to appreciate more modern composers than classical ones, but that line about dismissing it is something I find troubling. You are essentially saying that if you don't understand something, then it makes sense to dismiss it. That is letting the listener off the hook and devaluing the arts in the worst way. Now that's not to say all classical, jazz, or any music without vocals is made equal, but the only way you should be able to dismiss something is to first understand it. Then, if it is junk, say so. I dismiss a lot of pop music because I hear it, understand the value of production, understand the message, find much of it to be unoriginal, but I do "get" it, at least on a musical, if not cultural level.
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MartinTeller

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Re: General Music talk
« Reply #708 on: January 18, 2021, 12:38:49 AM »
I just wonder if Fly has ever danced in his life.

jdc

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Re: General Music talk
« Reply #709 on: January 18, 2021, 12:42:05 AM »
There's no world in which any of Beethoven or Mozart's works are objectively better than "Picacho" by Young Thug, unless the person doesn't speak English, in which case I suppose that song is lost on them as well.

There is a post somewhere in me that is very, very mean about this. But, no thanks. It's a waste of words at this point.

I will say, you are doing everything besides just saying "It's all relative." If that's the case, then your whole "hot take/unpopular opinion" thing rather vanishes. Saying something is "good" or "bad" becomes meaningless when it's all subjective.

If you just hear random noise and don’t feel anything, then I understand dismissing it.

I love instrumental jazz and classical - but don’t pretend to try to discuss it at any deep level

I don't either, and I tend to appreciate more modern composers than classical ones, but that line about dismissing it is something I find troubling. You are essentially saying that if you don't understand something, then it makes sense to dismiss it. That is letting the listener off the hook and devaluing the arts in the worst way. Now that's not to say all classical, jazz, or any music without vocals is made equal, but the only way you should be able to dismiss something is to first understand it. Then, if it is junk, say so. I dismiss a lot of pop music because I hear it, understand the value of production, understand the message, find much of it to be unoriginal, but I do "get" it, at least on a musical, if not cultural level.

I am saying if FLY doesn’t feel it, then I can understand dismissing it. But from what I gather from FLY’, both from above as well as maybe a similar discussion years ago, is that he finds not having the ability to have an objective discussion around instrumental music due to not having the technical knowledge is something he should dismiss.  But if it invokes an emotional response, even if you wouldn’t be able to have the knowledge to discuss it, seems good enough to enjoy it. Not everything needs to be discussed.

AT the end of the day though, there is only so much time, so people do have to make decisions on what to engage and what to dismiss for what ever reasons. People tend to get personal when something gets dismissed that is close to them, but I think they should move past it.
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“The direct use of physical force is so poor a solution to the problem of limited resources that it is commonly employed only by small children and great nations” - David Friedman