love

Author Topic: Catching Fire  (Read 2214 times)

Bondo

  • Objectively Awesome
  • ******
  • Posts: 23082
Catching Fire
« on: December 05, 2013, 12:08:31 PM »
Almost everything about this film feels rehashed. It brings up everything we saw in the first film and does absolutely nothing with it. There’s more “commentary” on entertainment as appeasing the masses, but it does even less with that idea this time around. There’s the weird love triangle that doesn’t change at all. Katniss as a symbol of hope does bring something a bit new to the table, but this part of the story does very little to take that idea anywhere.

Those first few aren't the point of this film at all. It is very much focused on her role as a symbol…more about which in a second.

Also, Katniss as a character is horrendous in this installment. In the first film she had something to prove, something to survive, and she had to play the game while also finding a way to cheat it. In this film, she spends most of the time having all the characters around her do stuff for her. There’s an attempt to show the impacts of the previous game by having her suffer from PTSD, but when it gets down to it, the effects seem negligent once the games start. Katniss has been elevated to the dull status of a symbol.

She is now a representation of hope that must be protected and preserved. The film is way more fascinated with Katniss as this figure that inspires people than a psychological character. In fact, and I imagine this is novelist Susanne Collins’ fault, Katniss basically gets free reign to distrust people, use people, walk over people, and generally stir up trouble without being challenged in a way that forces her to grow as a character. And why does she get to do this? Because she’s a symbol of hope.

The fact that people are doing things for Katniss without her really deserving it is implicit in the fact that she is the symbol of the rebellion of which they are members, even as she isn't. The film does two things with this. It shows the difficulty of managing the peace now that this develops. You can't kill her because then you have a martyr so they try to co-opt her. The second thing is her own growth with this status, from someone trying to play along for the sake of herself and her family (much as slaves play along with slavery in 12 Years A Slave). The key misstep by the Capitol is they make it impossible for her to remain neutral. For all the attempt to manage things (though undercut by Plutarch), it just proves too much. The loss of District 12 and Peeta's being captured by the Capitol are the final straw that shows her she can't sit by and that final expression as it goes to credits is the proof that she is taking on the symbolic role that she tried to avoid. That is a pretty profound personal development that mirrors a societal one.

Ultimately on the themes, it seems we are watching two completely different movies. You see it as hollow and thus exploitative. I see it as one of the richest embodiments of Marx's theories on power and other social science literature about minority dominated societies and their instability. Maybe it helps me access these themes because I'm politically inclined toward them.

also has a scene where kids are killing each other in intense sequences in a dome arena.

There are no kids in the arena this time other than Katniss and Peeta and they are basically adults at this point as they were on the older range of the reaping pool the year prior.

And added into the mix is a strange scene when Jena Malone strips to nothing in an elevator and the camera gets a quick side-shot of her. It’s a moment where the film’s agenda is so blaringly clear that it loses any moral high-ground: this is exploitation entertainment pure and simple. Put sex and violence up on the screen to get butts in the seats. The films are essentially b-movies marketed and sold as blockbusters.

This scene is referencing something that is more drawn out in the book. Joanna has basically gotten attention/love from the Capitol by being an exhibitionist. You could say thematically it is a prostituting force of the tyranny. If you demand that movies stand free from source material (which isn't  an unreasonable demand) then it does stand a bit out of place and context. This is offset by the more overt aspect with Finnick that directly references that he grants favors to people for secrets.

Anyway, the next book (and two films) has no arena and thus is a very different beast in its structure and focus, taking on active rebellion. Perhaps, though I wouldn't be hopeful given your reaction to these first two, they will be more to your liking.

Sam the Cinema Snob

  • Objectively Awesome
  • ******
  • Posts: 26795
Re: Catching Fire
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2013, 01:51:18 PM »
While I'll agree the political aspects are compelling, I just find the actual specifics of how this story explores those systems of power and control overwrought and unbelievable. I still can't buy the core conceit of the games and the Capitol is so absurdly evil that I find myself rolling my eyes at the sweeping generalizations that movie wants to make about them. There's no nuance to it. It's bashing me over the head with these ideas that it doesn't mature and develop. You know the whole political agenda of the film within the first 5 minutes and it doesn't go anywhere interesting with it, leaving me asking why I watched two and a half hours of the same point being repeated ad nauseum.

Melvil

  • Godfather
  • *****
  • Posts: 9977
  • Eek
Re: Catching Fire
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2013, 03:04:18 PM »
I'm somewhere in the middle of you two. I wasn't a huge fan of The Hunger Games, but I was pleasantly surprised by Catching Fire, and think it's a big improvement in most regards. A lot of the same problems from the first one still apply, but I do think there's some interesting stuff going on.

Sam, I don't completely disagree with you about Katniss' role in this movie, but as a middle, transitional chapter for the character I think Bondo has a point about her arc. They make use of the "reluctant symbol of hope" angle in some interesting ways. She's not a passive character, but she's being pulled in multiple directions and her lack of control perhaps makes it seem that way.

Honestly I think the games themselves were the least interesting part of this movie.

My biggest problem with the story remains the broad characteristics of the world that I just find hard to swallow, and the extremely silly sci-fi elements. I appreciate that they're trying to tackle some heavier subject matter though, there's a lot of dark and emotional stuff in here that doesn't just say "entertainment" and "exploitation" to me.

Beavermoose

  • Godfather
  • *****
  • Posts: 5006
  • Samsonite! I was way off!
Re: Catching Fire
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2013, 06:42:18 AM »
I find it hard to look to deeply into the themes of a movie directed by the guy who made I am Legend but on the surface the film works. It looks great and is really entertaining.

Totoro

  • Guest
Re: Catching Fire
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2013, 02:55:56 AM »
This was on the Empire Strikes Back/The Dark Knight level of greatness. Jennifer was superb, as usual. Sam is wrong, as usual.  ;)


IdeaThy12

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 250
  • I made the image I'm using for myprofile alsois oc
    • The Fiction Hub~
Re: Catching Fire
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2013, 10:25:06 PM »
Sam, I really have no idea if you guys remember me. But it's Ideathy, oldkid's youngest daughter--

The movie Catching Fire is a really wonderful movie. Maybe it doesn't mature some ideas, but there's another two whole movies. Overall, the games were just as good as in the original movie.

Now then, Katniss as a symbol of hope is really because she was brave enough to DIE before she let the Capital win. And "kids" killing themselves in the arena is a reminder from the Capital that they are in charge, and if you rebel, you die.

I still remember that quite well, as I only watched it last Thanksgiving--and she was the mockingjay, a symbol of hope and a reason to rebel. The whistle(which I believe a mockingjay copied in the first movie) is sort of how they show support. Frankly, I find they started the movie off strongly. With the love triangle in place and making Kat and Peeta act in love. Then sending them off on a crazy train ride where they are shouted at, and has to show no emotion. They failed convincing Snow, and it frankly is just intense. And I agree with Bondo about the ending look that Katniss gives, it's the end for the Capital.

I realize that I went through a ton of ideas there, but I really don't care about the quality of my writing as much as telling you you're wrong. Catching Fire was just as good--if not better--than the first. That's all I really want to get through, and if you feel as though the first was horrible, I disagree with you again.
"Moving on doesn't mean you forget about things. It just means you have to accept what happened and continue living." ~Erza Scarlet (Fairy Tail)

~Levy McGarden (Fairy Tail)

philip918

  • Elite Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4580
Re: Catching Fire
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2014, 11:23:12 AM »
Very late to the game on this one. As a fan of the first film, and hearing glowing reviews from both critics and friends, I was surprised that Catching Fire really didn't sit too well with me.

Really it comes down to the logic of the world feeling incredibly flimsy. In the first film I totally bought the bloodsport-to-distract-the-masses, because, well, that's obviously been done, and is being done (Sochi?) historically. However, in Catching Fire the beloved victors from around the nation rarely square off against one another and are basically subjected to torture throughout the games. I just fail to see how this is supposed to quell boiling public anger at the government. Instead of distraction, I suppose it could be viewed as a threat - here's what we can do to even the best of you - kind of thing. But that's not what the President and Heavensbee say it is. The game is supposedly all designed to show Katniss lowering herself to the level of the Games and resorting to lies, betrayal, and murder to survive and reveal to all that she's no hero.

Also, the torture just wasn't anywhere near as compelling as the human vs human stakes of the first film. Poison gas, CGI attack baboons, and earthquakes... just didn't do anything for me.

The filmmaking was more assured, the actors are great, and I actually found the first half quite compelling, but once they got to the games it just all fell apart for me.

Bondo

  • Objectively Awesome
  • ******
  • Posts: 23082
Re: Catching Fire
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2014, 12:07:31 PM »
I'd say the games in the second is less about sending a message to the masses as a desperate attempt to solve a problem, in the victors, they've created potential leaders to challenge the established power, especially in Katniss. The quarter quell is a good opportunity to change things up and cull the pool of victors. Obviously this backfires again due to Heavensbee being in on the rebellion.

philip918

  • Elite Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4580
Re: Catching Fire
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2014, 02:04:43 PM »
Yeah, but Katniss didn't even know a rebellion existed. They already had leaders and the populace was already acting out. She was certainly a symbol, but there are few symbols quite so powerful as martyr.

Their plan (even though much of it was designed by Heavensbee), or at least the execution of it, just doesn't make sense to me.

1SO

  • FAB
  • Objectively Awesome
  • ******
  • Posts: 36129
  • Marathon Man
Re: Catching Fire
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 09:56:09 PM »
Saw this a 2nd time. Liked it a bit more, which makes me wonder how many of the people who saw this as an improvement also (like me) didn't read the book first? There are a bunch of moments and lines of dialogue that foreshadow the ending.

Also some unease in watching Philip Seymour Hoffman, especially when he dances with Katniss. The way he delivers the line "he just decided he didn't want to breathe anymore" was chilling. I couldn't help but study his eyes, as if looking for the demons.