Author Topic: Sober Second Thought Marathon  (Read 9298 times)


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Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2015, 12:59:21 PM »
Wow, I didn't think there could be so much discussion of Vanilla Sky!  And so entertaining!
"It's not art unless it has the potential to be a disaster." Bansky


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Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2015, 02:57:46 PM »

All input/discussion is very welcome! Watch along, follow along.

Have you seen these "bills" before?

As far as I know, Sandy hasn't seen any of these and has kept herself relatively in the dark about all the major plot points and twists and such. :)

This is true. I am in the dark. :) Well, I do know there is a red pill and a blue pill, the Terminator is in need of some clothes, Max's head hurts, Brendan spouts hardboiled slang... But the meaning of these is yet to be learned.

A lot of good titles, though I don't see Sandy enjoying Brotherhood of the Wolf much. Unsure why that one is on there.

Truthfully, I'm more skittish of poker plots than I am of BotW. Folklore I have familiarity, gaming I do not. :)

The next film will be V for Vendetta.
"I'm a new day rising."


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Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2015, 04:44:37 PM »
Wow, I didn't think there could be so much discussion of Vanilla Sky!

Vanilla Sky (Cameron Crowe, 2001) — 6

Vanilla Sky
20 votes
6.37 average rating

You seem to be in line with the community on this one oldkid. Do you recall the ways it fell short for you?


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Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2015, 04:50:58 PM »
I do.

1. Tom Cruise
2. Unlikable characters
3. Tom Cruise
"It's not art unless it has the potential to be a disaster." Bansky


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Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2015, 04:59:47 PM »
Oh I didn't know you had a thing against Cruise! :)) Has it been that way since before Vanilla Sky? What's the story? (it doesn't have to be logical, I still want to hear it) :)


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Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2015, 05:03:33 PM »
Occasionally I find Cruise palatable (Edge of Tomorrow) or even exceptional (Magnolia).  But since I saw him as a teen in Top
Gun, I found his persona doesn't usually change from the self-important, arrogant character he plays there.  Not my kind of protagonist, and I rarely find him worth watching for a whole feature.
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Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2015, 05:15:48 PM »
Fair enough.


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Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2015, 10:43:19 PM »
smirnoff, I feel like I'm heading down the rabbit hole with this movie. I fear for your compilation job when we eventually work our way back out. :) I have so many questions and thoughts running through my head, none of which are particularly coherent. You're right about it all informing everything else and being interconnected... There are aspects of the film that are triggering particular emotions in me. You know, paradigm shift level. :) I'm going to do my best to speak clearly, but after all is said and done, you can edit out all you want, k? :)

   Paradigm shift, alright! I'd love to hear about that. :)

      "It was clear that Mme [Sandy] was suffering from one of those nervous irritations which women are often unable to explain even to themselves.” :)) ― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

V for Vendetta (James McTeigue, 2005)

Sandy & smirnoff - Heavy spoilers

I don't remember when it occurred to me to ask "what makes a great film?", but I do remember the answer I came up with. The criteria was really simple. Did the film make me say wow. If the answer was yes then it was great, if it was no than it was bad. 

It's about as primitive a framework for classification as you can come up with.

Ugh, me love it! :D

And yet I've never stopped thinking about it that way. I think about it after every film. Did a wow moment exist? What were the accumulation and distribution of wow moments? What were the magnitude of the wow moments? I think the only refinement I've made over the years is to adjust how much is enough. The more you see, the more it takes to wow you.

You've seen a lot of films. Did V for Vendetta have any wow moments? And if you don't know quite what I mean by wow moment, just think of your favourite scene in your favourite film. That's a wow moment.

I may tend to be serious while watching movies, but you have equations running through your head! :D That, I can safely say, has rarely happened to me, in fact only once that I can remember and it was the impossible equations of Crimes and Misdemeanors (If comedy equals tragedy plus time, does guilt divided by exemption, multiplied by rationalization...).

  • Wait wait wait! I must clarify this! After the film. Always after. The last thing I want to be doing while watching a movie is measuring it. For me that'd generally be a sign the film has gone wrong.

    Intuitive, easy, and the opposite of this. I fear I've over-complicated the whole thing. Let me restate it with gifs.

    Wow during the movie
    Thinking back on wows after the movie

    No complicated equations required, just mental replay!  :)

    • Alles klar! :)) And I'm relieved! You are no Baron Danglars.

      “Danglars was one of those men born with a pen behind the ear, and an inkstand in place of a heart. Everything with him was multiplication or subtraction.”  The Count of Monte Cristo

      For the amount of joy you find in certain films, I've envisioned you as much more organic and your gifs happily solidify my assumption. :) Tell me, what is Banderas so delighted with?

      • I wish I knew! I've never seen Assassins.

        • :))

          Quick! Somebody help us!

          • In the mean time, back to you telling me what wowed you in this movie, if anything. :)

The ratio in this movie of Wow moments, to unWow moments is very high. I know, because I tried to write down all of them in my note book and filled a page. So, instead of a whole page, I'll give you my top 5 as a count down and will see if you know where they are just by the dialogue that begins the scene or series of scenes.

*5. "Don't Shoot. Please Don't Shoot!"

  • Are you trying to trick me?   :) I don't think that's an actually a line in the movie. Your thinking of the priest right? He says "pleeeeease, have mercy", and V says "oh, not tonight Bishop. Not tonight!" 

    • Great guess! It was a mean trick! I should have considered how many times, "Don't Shoot. Please Don't Shoot!" could have been easily said during the movie. As much as "Open your eyes" in Vanilla Sky. :) This should put you right in the scene.

      • Ah! So it was a real line! I never should have doubted it. I could hear it in my head but I thought I must be misremembering because I couldn't place it. I was trying to go through all the scenes where someone might've said it and I overlooked that one entirely. :)

        This was the moment I realized that nothing would stop V's vendetta, not even innocent bystanders. Wow.

        • Your choice of the word innocent is interesting. It brings up the wider question of culpability and where the buck stops?

          You've got Chancellor Sutler in control of everything.

          His five heads of deparments carrying out his orders.

          And then you've got the manifestation of these departmental policies

          Controlling the message.
          Enforcing the doctrine
          Surpressing free-speech
          Providing Moral Validation

          Below them there are aids and accomplices.

          Any who's below them? And what did they know? Are they complicit? It's a messy a business. And as inspector Finch comes to realize "we're all part of it, and all trapped by it", himself included. A part of the problem and trapped by the problem. V echoes that sentiment, "truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror." There this an of attitude of we're all in it together, and all responsible for where we are now. "Some more than others".

          But I think with lines like "There is no court in this country for men like Prothero" and "It is to Madame Justice that I dedicate this concerto, in honor of the holiday that she seems to have taken from these parts", it's clear that a lot of the usual procedures for determining innocence no longer exist, even if V wanted to follow them. That old problem of how to fix an unjust system with an unjust system. There has to be a tipping point where things can't be salvaged from within. A point where the boat is sinking faster than you can pump. At that point it might be time to abandon ship and find another boat.

          • Aren't we all complicit? To continue with your quote, "Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent." We get comfortable and complacent and let all manner of corruption continue. Like Gordon said, "You wear a mask for so long, you forget who you were beneath it." By being complaint, we allow and while that may be uninvolved, it's never innocent.

            V knew that tipping point had been reached. Looking at the collage you made and seeing the breadth and depth of the control, I agree with V that the old world had to go. How much did V for Vendetta come to mind as you watched Citizenfour?

            A shout out to Valerie here. She got it. "Our integrity sells for so little, but it is all we really have. It is the very last inch of us, but within that inch, we are free... An Inch, it is small and it is fragile, but it is the only thing in the world worth having." While listening to her, I was instantly reminded of the integrity discussion that came out of the Amazing Grace review, especially oldkid's words, "true integrity costs."

            • Edward Snowden's story certainly bears that out.

              What comes to mind for me is how little would change if you were to take out any of of those people in the pyramid. It'd be like picking something from a vending machine. One item falls and a new one comes forward to replace it. The system is always happy to sacrifice one of its own to perserve the collective. I think Edward Snowden shined a light on a problem... it's yet to be seen whether anyone will come along and knock it away. What I wonder about is what's going to stop something else replacing it.

              Something I think we could do away with to a large degree is governmental representation. Back in the days when there was no practical way for every individual to be their own agent in the democratic process it made sense to send one person to represent your community. They'd go to the capital and supposedly act on your behalf. Technology makes this entire charade unnecessary. Why send one person when we are perfectly capable now of having every citizens individual wishes delivered electronically and instantly? I don't need a representation. I can act on my own behalf. /rant

              • :o  No more parliamentary democracy? No more federal republic? Gasp! I can just see our morning rituals, as we pull up the items for the day...

                Interstate 15 upgrades from mile 52 through 60         yay or nay
                School lunch restriction of white bread                        yay or nay
                Amend the Internal Revenue Code to include tax exemption of small business owners who hire ex convicts      yay or nay
                $3.4 million to help turtles cross under highway 86 safely.        ya or nay

                Our mornings just got busier and a whole lot more interesting! :))

                • Bills introduced by way of Kickstarter. The originator of those bills would factor into peoples decisions to support it, and of course the quality of the bill itself. It could be every bit as rigourous as the current system. Or maybe that's not saying much. More rigourous!

                  At the very least, physical buildings used for the express purpose of giving representatives a place to meet ought to be done away with. What a gigantic waste of money, not to mention they hardly ever show up for work anyways. All it does is give them an undeserved sense of superiority, allows them to distribute blame amongst the assembly ("I wasn't the only one who..."), and shelter them from their constituents.

                  • Your comment regarding a "vending machine" ability to keep the status quo is sobering. As for what will keep things from merely being replaced, I have no confidence in it being found, but if enough light is shed on the problems, who knows?

                    • The 24 hour infotainment cycle which passes for news, little real journalism, and the persecution of whistleblowers all add up to an even less informed public in the future, imo. :(

*4. "It's you isn't it? You've come to kill me? Thank God."

  • A chilling exchange. She is deeply remorseful, truly apologetic and had good intentions. But none of it seems to answer. There is an inevitability to V's purpose, and that inevitability would seem ruthless but for his acknowledgement of her feelings. "Is it meaningless to apologize?" "Never."

    But why then? Why can V not absolve her? There's a lot of bits and pieces in the film that add up to an answer.

    V: What was done to me created me. It's a basic principle of the Universe that every action will create an equal and opposing reaction.
    Evey Hammond: Is that how you see it? Like an equation?
    V: What was done to me was monstrous!
    Evey Hammond: And they created a monster.

    If V is an equal and oppossing reaction to men like Lewis Prothero, men who declare that "no one escapes their past. No one escapes judgement", then an answer begins to form as to the inevitability of V's (re)actions.

    • Something else that reflects this equation is when V says, "cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of fate." Even within himself he is experiencing an equal and opposing reaction that cannot be resolved. And so it is with Delia Surridge. Death is welcomed because of it. It helped me to see the flashback that showed the level her horrific "humanitarian" goals reached, so I could understand his level of opposing reaction. She too is a monster.

      Your example also shows the equation - Justice vs. Mercy. And didn't he accomplish both with Dalia?

      • I guess he did, yea. He was considerably less brutal with her as with the other names on his list. This may account for her asking for forgiveness.

        • Yes, he didn't instill terror before she died, but let her go out peacefully. When she said, "Thank God," welcoming death, (I believed) Dalia believed V's killing was merciful to her, for she could not reconcile the equal and opposite reactions within herself.

*3. "Process her..."

    • I would be remiss if I didn't mention one of the most haunting moments of the film. One which only just precedes this one. Evey's wretched scream as the black bag comes down over her head.

      But I agree, her dehumanization is terrible and shocking.

        • Her greatest fear! The one she has been living with her whole life, dreading the black mask, and it happens. Something I noticed with Natalie Portman in that moment and the montage is her acute fear. She's literally shaking as she's experiencing it.

          You and I talked long ago about our greatest fears. My two had to do with performing in a stadium and the other, presenting to an audience of 700. Do you remember what yours were? :) Those fears felt like walls of water looming, waiting to crash down on me, sweeping me away. So much anxiety and unrest in the anticipation of them. Luckily they didn't sweep me away, but Evey's greatest fear did. I in vain, viewed her vicissitudes of fate. :'(

            • I don't think I have any experiences that can even remotely compare to it. I like that you made a real life connection though.

        *2. "This is my gift to you..."

          • What is it about this scene for you? We see the bomb for starters and realize along with Evey that "it's really going to happen". V acknowledges the limits of his inevitability and hands the decision to pull the switch over to Evey. And of course Evey offers him another possible future.

              • This scene actually had it's beginnings long before, when they were watching the movie, The Count of Monte Cristo.

                V: Did you like it?
                Evey: Yeah. But it made me feel sorry for Mercedes.
                V: Why?
                Evey: Because he cared more about revenge than he did about her.
                V: Hm.

                A tip of his head and a little hm, signaling his turning point. The gift he gives her is, she gets to decide. He is willing to forgo the culmination of his vendetta, if she wishes it.

                Evey: Then it's really going to happen, isn't it?
                V: It will if you want it to... The truth is, you made me understand that I was wrong, that the choice to pull this lever is not mine to make...

                V now cares more for Evey (the different world), than he does of revenge. This line of thought also spills so beautifully into the other scene later.

                V: For 20 years I sought only this day. Nothing else existed... until I saw you. Then everything changed. I fell in love with you, Evey, like I no longer believed I could.

                "The power of love is a curious thing." :)

                Oh, and you are right, I really love that she offers him another possible future. :)

                V: I have no tree waiting for me. All I want, all I deserve, is at the end of that tunnel.
                Evey: That's not true.

                  • I'm glad you got something out of this. It's a rich aspect of the film which could have easily been made to feel incidental (not to mention inevitable) the way it does in so many films of the genre. In fact I'd say this film outdoes it's inspiration, The Count of Monte Cristo. Mercedes never felt like anything but an object of Edmund Dantes' desire to me. A beautiful women, a vague character, that awaited his arrival. Evey is anything but a Mercedes. If anything she too is Edmund Dantes, and the story is hers as much as his.

                      • Don't you just love great strong, interesting women characters? They're not easy to come by. I'm a little baffled by it, really, because I personally don't want a vague, passive, empty male character to root for. :)

                        I would have been rolling my eyes, if it had been done like so many other films, but this connection/love earned it's place in the story and is so needed to continue the theme of equal and opposite. So much vengeance, we needed V and Evey and Valerie's humanity to offset it.

                *1. "You're completely free..."

                Number one pretty well eclipses all the other impressive Wow moments.

                • How uh... how disorienting was it? Were you as surprised as Evey? I would take great pleasure in that, which sounds wrong since it's not a pleasurable scene, but I think you know what I mean. That I hope the film achieved what it set out to do in that moment is all. Shock, confuse, anger, challenge, devastate. To be honest, the first time I saw it I think all I had room for was shock. :)

                  Over time my appreciation of that scene has shifted from the surprise of it to the consequences and meaning, and it still holds up as one of the best scenes in the film for me. I find it more emotional too, now that I'm no so preoccupied being surprised. That shift goes for the entire film really.

                  • smirnoff, You will now take great pleasure in knowing that Evey's reactions were my reactions. Though, when she saw the dummy, I considered that V had made it possible for her to escape, even possible that it was him who said, "You're completely free." Just his way of making her escape more meaningful? As she walked through the door, I thought for just a moment, that the DVD had skipped a scene. I was completely, in "Wha?!" mode.

                    The way V says, "Hello Evey." Kills me. He says it with this seeming nonchalance, but his breath and his steely stance with fists, broadcasts loud and clear, he's got some splainin to do!

                    As Evey was processing, like what you wrote, "Shock, confuse, anger, challenge, devastate," I too was processing, but my processing was meta. As I was thinking of all that he put her through, the anger and sense of betrayal took over. She asked why and as he replied, "You said you wanted to live without fear. I wish there'd been an easier way, but there wasn't," it dawned on me, just at the moment Evey said, "Oh my God."


                    Do you remember when verbALs said that he felt the author was playing God in Jane Eyre? And, I said that I felt like God was playing God in my life. Just as Evey felt betrayed by V, I have felt betrayed by God. I've asked why countless times. When she walks out onto the roof and says, "God is in the rain" I broke down. In order for me to learn all I need to learn and become who I'm meant to be, I need to understand that there isn't an easier way. "And rain, will make the flowers grow." God isn't uncaring, he's creating opportunities for growth.

                    (That's my paradigm shift. The thing is, is that I knew this already, but it took this scene for me to KNOW it.)

                    • That's often the way with epiphanies isn't it. They're vaguely true before they're clearly true. :)

                      Wow moment indeed! You describe the experience so well. I reveled in reading it and hearing what a surprise it all was. And how deeply affecting it was too. So great. Why can't every movie do this!

                      • :))

                        Yeah, why not?!  (And thank you. It's tricky explaining epiphanies. :) )

                        This is why I love watching movies from other's top 100 lists. You've all sorted through piles of ho-hum movies, so my chances of experiencing what I did in V, are much higher. And boy, is this what I want from a movie: emotional responses, surprises, paradigm shifts! This movie has it all.  Hey, this looks like a good place for a quote!

                        “Life is a storm, my young friend. You will bask in the sunlight one moment, be shattered on the rocks the next. What makes you a man is what you do when that storm comes. You must look into that storm and shout as you did in Rome,

                        Do your worst, for I will do mine!

                        Then the fates will know you as we know you.”  ― The Count of Monte Cristo

                        • "This movie has it all."

                          • yes very :)

                A small side note: I think Dario Marianelli's compositional contribution hits it's peak on the rooftop in the rain. That too is a recognition that came with time, but I see now how big of a contribution it really is. Overall not as noticeable an element as his work in quieter films, but it performs when it has to I think.

                I knew there was music during the end of the scene, but at the time I was distraught and didn't register what it was doing.

                I'm very glad. I think that's as it should be. :)

                But listening now, I can feel the building of it and know that it contributed to the visceral reaction I was having. It's moving, but doesn't ever get in the way. The next scene the music plays under the dialogue, subtly. I'm looking forward to spending a lot more time with the score. Thanks for pointing it out for me.

                I just can't imagine any good film without it.

                I, very much like your philosophy/relationship with movie music. :)

                Would you like to share a top 5? :)

                • That's tremendously difficult. Inspector Finch has a sequence I love that I think explains why:

                  "I suddenly had this feeling that everything was connected. It's like I could see the whole thing, one long chain of events that stretched all the way back... I felt like I could see everything that happened, and everything that is going to happen. It was like a perfect pattern, laid out in front of me. And I realised we're all part of it, and all trapped by it."

                  After a while every scene begins to feel as if it informs every other scene. They bleed into one another. It's hard to know quite where to place the "top 5" brackets because there's always one crucial element the moment before, and the moment before that. Pretty soon you've encompassed the film itself.

                  And that's kind of where I'm at with it now. It's one of the most complete films I know. "Finished as no music movie is ever finished".  ;)

                  • I was definitely having a hard time keeping my moments to specific moments, since they really did "bleed" from former and into later scenes. Maybe I should have tried for top 5 Wow themes. :) I was so impressed with Inspector Finch's speech and the way the movie moved forward, through both exposition and prediction, providing so much information, packed into a few minutes. I'm grateful and in awe of a movie that can bring me from point a to point b in an interesting and unexpected way. The dominoes were the icing on the cake. It reminded me fittingly of The Fog of War.

                    And something specifically to V. " How much evil must we do in order to do good?" --Robert McNamara

                    • Great observation. I love Inspector Finch's monologue as well, and the dominoes, yes! It's a great montage.

                    When you say, "one of the most complete films I know," I think of a small detail that probably shouldn't matter, but it left an impression on me. The movie cared enough to incorporate a myriad of those small details. It was when the camera panned over the prison cell doors, that were marked with roman numerals, and landed on 5. Why do I love stuff like that so much? :)

                    • "You already have the information. All the names and dates are inside your head. What you want, what you really need, is a story." - V

                      I think the film understands the power of this completely. You know the name V, you know the date November the 5th... and it's only after you already know these things that the film gives you the story behind them. It's powerful when such a big puzzle piece falls into place . "I knew this already, but it took this scene for me to KNOW it." So it is! The lens you've been looking through has suddenly been brought into sharp focus, and for the first time you can really see. Clarity is a powerful thing. :)

                      • That quote! I'ts exactly how that scene played out for me. I have to confess, I thought I might be the only one having that Aha moment. :) Sometimes I wonder if I'm the last person to get things, but even so, like you said, that clarity hit hard and satisfactorily. We have another puzzle movie! This one also gives us the complete 1000 pieces, so we aren't left with gaping holes.

                        • As someone who never "sees it coming" I can relate. I thought it was a terrific reveal. :)

                          • Speaking of Vanilla Sky, I came across a perfect Dumas quote that I wish, wish, wish I had at my disposal for our last review. Better late than never? :)

                            “When you compare the sorrows of real life to the pleasures of the imaginary one, you will never want to live again, only to dream forever.” ― The Count of Monte Cristo

                            • A warning or an endorsement I wonder.

                              • I'm in the warning camp, but I'd rather camp in the endorsement one. :)

                    I'm very interested in which of your other favorite movies feel this complete.

                    • We may be watching a few in this marathon! ;)
                      • :))

                        That's right! Only complete puzzle movies for you.

                        • "When you are in doubt as to which you should serve, forsake the material appearance for the invisible principle, for this is everything." ― Twenty Years After

                I won't totally cop out on pointing out a wow moment though. I find the use of the 1812 Overture undeniably powerful. Those sequences are truly large, "as only celluloid can deliver". Emotionally on par with the exploding of the Death Star or Barad Dur, but who can match that use of Tchaikovsky? It's overwhelming. I think the fireworks are an especially nice touch. It's powerful how well it all comes together. And it all has a rich subtext.

                Great pick!! I was trying to fit that into my top 5. Actually, I was secretly hoping you'd choose it, so I could keep the ones in that I wanted. :) You'd mentioned the Parliament explosion once before (can't remember in what context), so I kept my fingers crossed.

                The 1812 Overture is a symbolically suitable choice. It represents how the "war machine" of the French Allied Army were on their way to Moscow, when the Russian people, knowing their military defenses weren't strong, united together in prayer. Then they go and fight. It's represented in the intermix of La Marseillaise and Russian Folk Music, where the folk music at first is overpowered, but then the hymn "O Lord, Save Thy People" is heard and the French are defeated by "an act of God," as a deep freeze debilitates the French Army.

                The song and spectacle together here are, "held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous."

                As for the scene, along your vein, I'd tell James McTeigue "Great shot kid, that was one in a million." :) 


                I can't think of many films that end this well and on such a big note (and I probably wouldn't name them if I did). Most films that "end with a bang" actually go on to have an epilogue, and rightly so as I think many would feel quite unresolved without it. I've never felt that's the case with V though. It ends on the bang, with a bang, and feels pefect for it. A culmination of everything all at once.

                Yes, nothing should go after the 1812 Overture, but the cannon smoke dissipating...

                And yet something has to happen after the smoke clears. I do love the transition. Unlike so many end credits, it is not a disruption but a compliment.

                I missed this! I turned it off right as the credits rolled, so didn't realize the significance of the song playing. Thank you for pointing it out, because something does have to happen. "My name is called disturbance!" Kinda wish I could see the rest of the story play out.

                I was reading, what must have been an earlier version of the script for V and it didn't end nearly so concisely. Someone must have caught the vision of something much, much better. I'm so glad they did.

                It's always scary to imagine how a good film could've gone bad.

                Thinking back on your experience, was the movie more Evey-centric or V-centric?

                Oh my! They both went through huge arcs. Huge! It was the changing of the guard, freedom fighter teaching protégé and vice versa... even so, it's Evey's story. She's the future, the new world, us.

                What's your take on your question? :)

                For a while I'd never given it any thought. I thought it was V's story, and Evey stumbled into it. If pressed that'd be my answer. I had a suspicion you'd answer differently though given all you'd written. :) It can definitely go either way. For another person it might even be Finch-centric, if they felt a really close connection with the character. It's definitely not one of those questions with a right answer. :)

                Well said and yes, I tipped my hand with my observations. :) Isn't that a great compliment to the film and the actors? Each of those three characters are worthy of my full attention.

                Are there any other examples of characters in movies you tend to see the movie through, even though they're arguably not the main character?

                Many examples ;)

                By the nature of most movies, my default position usually falls to a side character. I've been trying to think of a non female character that I strongly see a movie through and the first one I could think of is Sam.

                Kinship! It's hard not to gravitate to it when you feel it! :)

                So much the better when that person is the main character then eh?

                Yes, so much so!

                I really want to ask your question back to you ("Are there any other examples of characters in movies you tend to see the movie through, even though they're arguably not the main character?")

                As much as I may enjoy a periphery character and feel a kinship with them I don't know if I've ever seen a film through the eyes of anyone but the main character before. You do not seem to find this difficult. You came up with so many examples! And characters with far less screen time than Evey (who feels close to 50/50 with V). This is something foreign to me.

                The only example I can think of that's even remotely close might be Paul Bettany's character in Master and Commander.

                I think this is purely a gender thing. If you were watching A League of Their Own, are you seeing it through Geena Davis' character or Tom Hanks'? I can empathize and appreciate male leads, but I tend to gravitate towards the female characters' perspectives, even if they're in the periphery.      ie: "I've quit better jobs than this." :)

                I thought how cool it was that Dominic was in the crowd,

                but then everyone was in the crowd.

                ...The friends we have lost do not repose under the ground...they are buried deep in our hearts. It has been thus ordained that they may always accompany us...” ― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

                All throughout, I kept thinking I should be watching The Count of Monte Cristo as a double feature. Even if I don't do that, I want to refresh my memory of the details of the story. It's been about 10 years since I've seen the Jim Caviezel and Guy Pearce version.

                That always seems to happen! Films that reference other films often make you immediately want to see that other film! Like Leon watching Singing in the Rain in Leon. Or Shawshank Redemption and Gilda. Or this film and all the Shakespearean references. I guess it's a bit like an inside joke... you want to be a part of it. And you're seeing how the characters are better for knowing it, and you want to be better for knowing it too. What a great headspace to find yourself in, going into a film.

                Leon watches Singin' in the Rain?! Andy and Ellis watch Gilda?!  More blind spots of mine. :) I take particular delight in well placed films within films. Even Vanilla Sky slyly worked in two related movies.

                Yes! I want to be as smart as "V," rattling off all manner of quotes and alliterations! I want "to be better for knowing it too." Luckily, I'm a little familiar with Shakespeare and Dumas, so I felt like I could at least attend the party. :) That kind of "in the know" was the best part of Quiz Show, where the dad and son were quizzing each other on Shakespeare quotes.

                As smart as V and with the elocution of Weaving. Who wouldn't want that?  8)

                It makes for one hell of a hero doesn't it. I mean as action movies go what's the norm? One-liners. A little quip before one dude with muscles punches another dude with muscles. Not to take anything away from that tradition, it can be great fun. There is something extra badass though about a character who drops Shakespeare  on you before taking you out. Not just badass on the part of the character, but on the part of the actor too!

                “We are oft to blame in this, 'tis too much proved, that with devotion's visage, and pios action we do sugar o'er the devil himself.”

                A few more syllables than your average one-liner, and a darn sight harder to spit out while maintaining the "I'm about to deliver justice" tone. I'd like to see Statham or Dwayne Johnson try and pull that off! No way. It takes a stone cold actor. Weaving... he gives me goosebumps he's so good.

                I'm going to love/hate him at that goosebump level in The Matrix, aren't I? I can't wait to watch this again, because even the first time through, I'm catching glimpses of his subtle skills. With no facial expressions to work with, he can makes his Shakespearean verbiage understandable with a nod, or a flourish of his hand and always making each word count. I want to study his phrasing and intonations, like in the line, " Evey, please. There is a face beneath this mask but it's not me. I'm no more that face than I am the muscles beneath it or the bones beneath them." This one line alone is beautifully layered and nuanced and he kills it... and yes, V's the coolest of the cool action hero!

                You said it so well and I'm rambling. :)) How about this? I don't know if any other actor could have made me fall in love with a serial killer. :)

                It's amazing how much more watchable a movie is when lines become events unto themselves eh. :)

                The Matrix may surprise you. You'd expect a physical unmasking to coincide with a more expressive performance. In this case it's quite the opposite. Goosebumps though, yes.

                Whoa. "There is a face beneath this mask but..."   I can't wait!

                "I'm a new day rising."


                • Bert Macklin, FBI
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                Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
                « Reply #18 on: March 04, 2015, 10:50:55 PM »
                Alright. I'm going to rewatch this soon. I love this.
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                Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
                « Reply #19 on: March 04, 2015, 10:54:45 PM »

                Sooner than soon, so I can hear your thoughts on it.
                "I'm a new day rising."