Author Topic: Sober Second Thought Marathon  (Read 20972 times)

oldkid

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Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
« Reply #90 on: December 29, 2017, 06:36:43 PM »
Great conversation, you guys.

Smirnoff, I loved some of the insights you brought, the connection between shots.  I could have watched the movie seven times and I never would have caught that.

Sandy, thank you for reminding me that my intro to Morgan Freeman was the Electric Company!  I forgot that he was in that.  I remember watching the very first episode of that show, so long ago it's hard to believe that I was alive then.



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Sandy

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Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
« Reply #91 on: January 02, 2018, 01:48:54 AM »
Great conversation, you guys.

Smirnoff, I loved some of the insights you brought, the connection between shots.  I could have watched the movie seven times and I never would have caught that.

Sandy, thank you for reminding me that my intro to Morgan Freeman was the Electric Company!  I forgot that he was in that.  I remember watching the very first episode of that show, so long ago it's hard to believe that I was alive then.

I'm glad you read the convo, oldkid! It was an enjoyable process. I wonder if I saw the first episode of the Electric Company. I'm impressed you can remember that! :)

oldkid

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Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
« Reply #92 on: January 02, 2018, 10:30:36 AM »
I am too!  It must have been an important moment in my life as a kid.

The first episode aired in 1972.
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smirnoff

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Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
« Reply #93 on: January 02, 2018, 02:15:18 PM »
What a cool career Morgan Freeman has had.

Sandy

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Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
« Reply #94 on: February 01, 2019, 08:04:30 PM »
Brick (Rian Johnson, 2005)

Sandy & smirnoff (and KOL!) - Heavy spoilers


smirnoff: You watched Brick last night, right?

Sandy: Last night and the rest of it this morning.

smirnoff: It keeps a pace alright... quite a few details to hold on to as you go along. Codewords, names, names that might be codewords...

Sandy: Right, and many you're not sure are important or, not, so you just hold onto them all!

smirnoff: It's good that our protagonist is kind of in the same boat. "Pin, is it a place? A name?" Were you expecting the dialogue to be the way it was?

Sandy: I had heard that the language was different, but I didn't know in what way. I turned on the subtitles from the beginning, so I wouldn't be thrown.

sirnoff: Did you enjoy that? Or find it corny in the context?

Sandy: Because of the tip off before hand, it was less affected than I was expecting. How did you deal with it when you saw the movie for the first time?

smirnoff: I don't recall being forewarned, but it really grabbed me. I just thought "man, this is FUN to listen to".

Sandy: I'm so glad! Something the writer was probably hoping for.

smirnoff: And this go around I was more aware of it going in. And I thought... this isn't going to work again is it? These are high school kids acting all Bogarty-cool. But no, it was immediately super enjoyable.

Sandy: Wonderful! It could have gone terribly wrong, especially if they had tried to use lingo that was even more stylized.

smirnoff: I would have bet on it going wrong. hehe

Sandy: :D you mean you wouldn't have been a financial backer? ;)

smirnoff: Yeah, that's a fun question. Maybe I would, since as a script you wouldn't have to contend with the image of whose reading it so much.

Sandy: That’s true.

smirnoff: I’m sure there's a lot of words I missed.

Sandy: Reading the words, while hearing them, I found myself impressed with choices. They weren't so far out there that it felt fake.

smirnoff: At times I probably filled in the blanks with what I thought they meant, given the context.

Sandy: Right! There was enough normal language, where they could just slip in some smart slang here and there without losing the audience. I was impressed with the restraint, yet it was bold still the same.

smirnoff: They never wink about it.

Sandy: Never! Thank heaven, what a groaner that would have been!

smirnoff: Realism has it's place, but it's not everything. This is creative, and sharp. To even catch it requires that you lean into the movie. So, it's like you're naturally engaged.

Sandy: I agree! Well said. It helps that the actors carried it so well.

smirnoff: They do. The lines are a mouthful at times. They kill it.

Sandy: It has to come across as their own lingo, or it's just a bad high school production of Romeo and Juliet. :D

smirnoff: hah.

Sandy: You've listened to a lot of Shakespeare, and my guess is that after a while, it feels natural and flows well. On a lesser level, the language did a similar thing for me in Brick.

Movie Clip of Brick's lingo

Sandy: How many times do you think you've seen it?

smirnoff: I think this would be 3 or 4. Often enough I guess. I don't think it's one I'd see more than once a year or anything. But, it's never let me down either. In some ways it does feel true to the school experience.... which when you're in it, is so much about the extracurricular stuff.

Sandy: I don’t think we ever saw a class in session. The atmosphere was a big part of the story. Where were all the students? It’s a big ole metaphor for isolation.

smirnoff: I enjoyed the part when the mom serves them cereal out of the novelty pitcher.

Sandy: haha!

smirnoff: It kind of put the whole story in its place.

Sandy: She's so oblivious!

smirnoff: It's true.

Sandy: When you were a teenager, didn't you too think your parents were clueless to the intricacies of your life?

smirnoff: But then, as a kid you feel you're parents are kind of oblivious to a lot don't you?

Sandy: :)) Right!

smirnoff: But you're a parent too... do you feel oblivious? :)) 

Sandy: A little, to be honest. In some ways, I don't really want to know!

smirnoff: I'm sure that's probably true, and normal. And maybe healthy! :)) 

Sandy:  :)) It's all about self-preservation! Isn't there a scene in a movie with Susan Sarandon, where she says to her son who lives in her basement, “What do you do there all day?” and he says, “You really don't want to know.”

smirnoff: haha. Could that be “Jeff, Who Lives at Home"?

Sandy: Yes!! That's the one! I haven't seen the movie, but just that clip. It resonated with me. :) 

smirnoff: Funny. It was a line for moms, I guess.

Sandy: We all have fear our children will live forever in our basements. ;)

smirnoff: Hah. So, the movie starts at that big drainage opening... Maybe a good idea that they started with a body... given the surrounding high-school environment and potentially unbelievable dialogue. It starts very somber, and with that distinctive score. The first moments of a movie can really set the tone... I wonder how it struck you.

Sandy: At first, I was disappointed the film was going to be all in flashback.

smirnoff: Ah! Interesting.

Sandy: But I was relieved the movie caught up to the opening scene in the first half, so that I could move forward with it. Big sigh of relief!

smirnoff: Wow, yeah. I totally get that feeling.

Sandy: It can almost be as frustrating as a non-communicating rom-com. :D

smirnoff: Haha. That's interesting to hear... something that I think would only make you feel that way the first go around.

Sandy: Right! That feeling won't be repeated, because I know not to worry. It's funny, my number one favorite movie is a flashback.

smirnoff: Do you think you had the same feeling with Jane Eyre?

Sandy: I must admit, at first I did! I was thinking, what are they doing?! But it helped the story so much, that I forgave the decision. By using flashback, it jump started the film and bypassed the middle part of the story which comes to a screeching halt in most adaptations.

smirnoff: It’s a risky move, but it paid off. Here is something else that pays off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCqVccFayCY

Sandy: Is this the opening song?

smirnoff: That's it.
 
Sandy: Jarring

smirnoff: What a great bit of tone.

Sandy: All elements combined to set our teeth on edge. And, had us at the edge of our seats too.

smirnoff: Honestly... I feel like a lot of movies flail about when they start. It's not hard. Just do a thing with the music!

Sandy: Like you said, it sets the mood, like nothing else could have. It’s almost like a western. The iconic Morricone flute whistle, but now with cowbells. :) 

smirnoff: haha yes!

Sandy: Never underestimate the power of music! But, I'm preaching to the choir. You're the one who's helped me listen more intentionally to a score.

smirnoff: I take it as a bad sign if a movie starts silence and just slowly dials up ambient noises. I'm sure I like movies that have done that, but I don't like that start. I mean, there are movies I like before the production graphic has even faded out, because the music is going.

Sandy: You've seen enough, to know what you like and what will grab your attention.

smirnoff: Like yeah, let’s start this thing.

Sandy: Like Silverado! Ooh, let's play that!

smirnoff: Yeah, you better find it now. I haven't actually seen it.

Sandy: Oh! How is it you haven't seen Silverado? It's such a smirnoff movie!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPWQzq5SQYM

smirnoff: Oh man. Doing it right… That's weird. Even the poster isn't familiar to me.

Sandy: March is coming. :) 

smirnoff: That'll take care of it.

Sandy:  It's not Lonesome Dove, but nothing is.

smirnoff: True. Opening a movie correctly is a dying art. I'm convinced.

Sandy: I believe you. It's almost like they're too cool for big openings.

smirnoff: That's the problem. I believe that's what they think. Doesn't have to be big, that's what they miss. Just tonally strong. Look at Lord of the Rings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhjDnrw34QA

Sandy: Ah, good example.

smirnoff: Atmosphere, right away. I mean, they could've just started it in a field with the sounds of leaves and birds... but they didn't.

Sandy: :) 

smirnoff: So, Brick does good. I was into it right away. Sorry for ranting about it. lol

Sandy: Not at all! I love this kind of stuff. This is why we watch movies, to be moved and to be pulled in.

smirnoff: Yes! Sorry I had to skip that clip. It got too good and distracting.

Sandy: haha! It sure was! We should just watch Lord of the Rings. :D All we need is that VR screening room!

smirnoff: BigScreenVR! loll yeah.

Sandy: That’s it! Noirs aren't typically your thing, so how is it you came to love a neo noir film. It seems the mood and the setting helped you to immerse yourself in the story.

smirnoff: Yeah, I think if I were a little more familiar with straight noir I could probably isolate the relevant bits that made the difference here, more fully. But somehow this is less corny than noirs I've seen.

Sandy: Maybe some of that is the stylized language back then, which seems over the top now. Rian Johnson said something you might find interesting, "It was really amazing how all the archetypes from that detective world slid perfectly over the high school types." He also thought the high school setting worked out more smoothly than he imagined it would.

smirnoff: It was smooth. I mean seeing it that first time, I don't know that I would've even thought to call it noir. It would be someone else saying it, and then it would click.

Sandy: He didn't have to jury-rig the characters, so that is why you didn't see noir playing out in front of you. It was high school, through and through, though very dark. One of the reasons I watched it in two sittings is because the darkness was getting to me. I needed a breather.

smirnoff: It does start to get intense! That foot chase sequence ups the adrenaline. I wonder if a person would say it was shot like a noir. Like outside of the characters and dialogue, are there other noirisms?

Sandy: Good question. This is where we need Martin, or 1SO to chime in. :)  Mood, lighting, the downfall of characters; these are what I think of when I think of noir.

smirnoff: Here’s something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yJkcQLV4oQ

Sandy: I love how she turns it all around.

smirnoff: Just an example scene, but yea. it's a nice play by her. Something about the dialogue there doesn't have quite the pop to it.

Sandy: His statement is galling.

smirnoff: It IS! I mean she was mildly put off, but it's pretty outrageous now.

Sandy: True! It's heavy-handed stylizing, don't you think? But back then, she was probably used to such things, I guess.

smirnoff: Yeah, I'm afraid that's true. It's definitely stylized. But different. I mean, it's hard to pin down "noir." It's like you know it when you see it (more or less), but could you write it out as a precise checklist?

Sandy: You could try, but there would always be exceptions. It’s the great noir debate!

smirnoff: When it comes to the specific words used, Brick is different. Someone says "dame". Is that noir?

Sandy: haha! Yes, unless it's South Pacific!

smirnoff: :)) I feel a song coming on...

Sandy: haha! You are right!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljm9CDRAhMQ

smirnoff: This is what the war was like right?

Sandy: Everyone bursting out in song at a moment’s notice?

smirnoff: They couldn't be fighting ALL the time.

Sandy: nope. Lots of down time. Dull, lonely down time.

smirnoff: I'm trying to think of any traditional "noir" words in Brick.

Sandy: As I was watching the film, I imagined the writer sitting down with the first draft of his screenplay and picking out words to replace, using his thesaurus. It would be a fun exercise.

smirnoff: "Twists, Slugs and Roscoes: A Glossary of Hardboiled Slang"    Gum! He says gum.

Sandy: :D cool.

smirnoff: and Bulls. Says something like "The bulls would gum it." Alright, so I guess there's a lot of noir words, haha. Works better in Brick! Take that Bogart.

Sandy: :)) They are more subtle.

smirnoff: “More subtle than Bogart.” Brick's tagline.

Sandy: :D Fitting

smirnoff: That clip from Dead Reckoning isn't a good look. I don't know if he'll live that down in my head.

Sandy: Don't watch In a Lonely Place, then. His character is hard to shake, and it infiltrates all his other roles. 

smirnoff: Oh boy... It gets worse?

Sandy: His character is a haunted one in In a Lonely Place, so it's hard to shake it off. He does an excellent job though, which is why it stays with you.

smirnoff: Interesting.

@Knocked Out Loaded joined the room

Sandy: Hi KOL!

smirnoff: Hi KOL! :) 

Sandy: smirnoff and I are talking about Brick. :) 

Knocked Out Loaded: Hi guys

smirnoff: The original "Golden Brick". Kind of a cool claim to fame.

Sandy: I've always been curious about it, because of that very reason.

Knocked Out Loaded: Okay, it’s been a while since I saw Brick. :D I think it is a better story than it is a film.

smirnoff: So, you didn't think it played well, put to screen?

Knocked Out Loaded: The style, or rather the way they talk, in a way stands between me and the movie.

Sandy: You either get pulled in by it, or it separates you.

smirnoff: Makes sense... I mean that would make or break it really.

Knocked Out Loaded: But that’s me and noir, really.

smirnoff: Ah! Interesting!

Sandy: I don't think any of us three are big noir fans.

smirnoff: It's funny, because I enjoyed it, but am not at all a noir guy.

Sandy: yes, this

Knocked Out Loaded: I guess some people like that essence that remains. To me all the grays in between disappear and what remains more reminds of a caricature.

Sandy: There is that. Even Rian Johnson stated that he used well used archetypes… I was hooked by the bleakness of the high school setting, reminiscent of Rebel without a Cause.

























smirnoff: Bleak. That's a good way to describe it. I like the pace it keeps. It feels like Arthur marches from scene to scene with a lot of purpose. The movie had momentum I thought.

Sandy: I am wondering if you felt like you were ahead of the story? Or did it keep you guessing?

smirnoff: I was definitely guessing. Wondering what he was going to shake loose next.

Sandy: That's a sign of a successful movie, one that is not too easy, yet keeps you engaged. Sometimes movies are so convoluted and obscure, I give up, because they make me work too hard, with little or no reward.

smirnoff: Any examples come to mind?

Sandy: I hated Murder on the Orient Express. :D

smirnoff: Haha nice. I wish I'd seen that now. Just to commiserate.

Sandy: The reveal was so obscure, it made me mad that I was jerked around thinking I could solve the mystery.

smirnoff: Ah, so it was a bit unfair, or unguessable, while playing like a mystery that could be solved?

Sandy: Right! I invested in a no solve story. I won't be fooled again! So, I didn't watch the remake. 

smirnoff: Heh, I wonder why they thought that was the way to go. Oh I see, that was the original.

Sandy: yes, they both were were following Agatha Christie’s story. It’s her fault!

smirnoff: What's with The Pin's big ass shoe?

Sandy: He has big feet? I didn’t notice his shoe. Maybe he has a club foot.

smirnoff: Is club foot a thing?

Sandy: It is. It’s not really a club, but the foot is rotated inwards and downwards, therefore needing a special shoe. Did The Pin have only one big shoe?

smirnoff: Hmm, googled... I see a lot of babies with it. :( Yeah, just one. lemme find a shot. If I didn't know better, I'd say this was a shot from a Wes Anderson film.



Sandy: Oh, wow! I didn't notice his shoe! Sometimes in noir, the bad guy has a physical ailment, like an on the nose metaphor for their twisted mind. Mr. Potter in It's a Wonderful Life, though that's not noir!

Knocked Out Loaded: I never have thought of that, it is a fun observation!

smirnoff: What's his ailment?

Sandy: He is wheelchair bound. Not sure if his condition is ever discussed. Maybe polio. Even something like Batman has very typical physical strangeness in its villains, like The Penguin.

Knocked Out Loaded: I need to split. so fun seeing you both. I look forward to reading the finished review. take care!

Sandy: It's good to see you KOL!

smirnoff: Alright, talk to you later! "split"... sounds noir. :D 

Sandy: It does!

smirnoff: So, do you think The Pin's big shoe has a sort of meaning?

Sandy: Besides being a metaphor for his twisted mind, I can’t think of anything.

smirnoff: The pin I assume is Kingpin. Earlier, Brain refers to "the Pin" as something of an urban legend. Kind of like Big Foot.

Sandy: Whoa! I like that! Good catch!

smirnoff:  It may be nothing. :) 

Sandy: It's as good as anything else! Even better. :) 

smirnoff: It's the kind of film where everything feels deliberate, so it gets you thinking.

Sandy: I wouldn't put it past him, to have that as the reason for the big foot. It's creative, like you said, and it makes me wonder if nothing is without meaning in this film. I'm sitting here looking at the picture and the bird interests me. Makes me think of The Maltese Falcon.

smirnoff: I read a thing where Johnson talked about the Maltese Falcon. Said the birds in the film were a nod to it. I guess there's a bird thing in that shot.

Sandy:  I'm so glad he did that. I hear Rian Johnson really loved Dashiell Hammett. They’re like Easter eggs!

smirnoff: It doesn't annoy me. And sometimes that sort of thing can. I guess when I don't like the film, haha.

Sandy: Ain’t it the truth. :D Overall, what you said about the film being sharp and creative, those are the things that stay with me.

smirnoff: Yeah, it's a pretty fluid story, once it's rolling it's rolling. But its characteristics are pretty uniform thorough out.

1SO

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Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2019, 12:53:25 AM »
smirnoff: It does start to get intense! That foot chase sequence ups the adrenaline. I wonder if a person would say it was shot like a noir. Like outside of the characters and dialogue, are there other noirisms?

Sandy: Good question. This is where we need Martin, or 1SO to chime in. :)  Mood, lighting, the downfall of characters; these are what I think of when I think of noir.
There's a definite Noir feel to the fatalism and the way the female characters are built up or torn down. Visually, it's not so much Noir (like Chinatown and L.A. Confidential) as the scruffy, Indie Neo-noir of films like Red Rock West, Memento or Drive.

Sandy

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Re: Sober Second Thought Marathon
« Reply #96 on: February 02, 2019, 10:03:26 PM »
There's a definite Noir feel to the fatalism and the way the female characters are built up or torn down. Visually, it's not so much Noir (like Chinatown and L.A. Confidential) as the scruffy, Indie Neo-noir of films like Red Rock West, Memento or Drive.

Scruffy, Indie Neo-noir! Now that's the expertise categorizing I'm talking about! :D