Author Topic: Westerns  (Read 46079 times)

1SO

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Re: Westerns
« Reply #270 on: February 20, 2018, 03:49:54 PM »
Hmmm. My first instinct was to look up the Westerns of Howard Hawks, since he's often mentioned as 2nd only to John Ford. Of the 8 titles listed by IMDB 3 he only co-directed. Barbary Coast is not a Western and any blame for The Outlaw must fall on Howard Hughes. Hawks was just trying to polish a turd. That leaves 5 titles, 3 of which have the same plot. So, maybe Hawks is regarded as 2nd best because of Rio Bravo or because Hawks has proved himself in so many genres that Westerns is just another feather in his cap. I could make a case for Anthony Mann, but it might be more accurate to say there's John Ford and then there's everyone else.

You focus on the characters and I don't think that's an unfair place to look. Hawks' speciality has always been the conversations between people while they work. One of my favorite small moments in the film is when Walter Brennan bets his teeth... and loses. Completely unnecessary but fun when it comes time to grab some chow. Your review hits on something I agree with. Having seen Brennan as a capable and enjoyable lead, this supporting role with no backstory, is kind of a letdown, especially since it sets a character type that Brennan became more known for.

You don't seem the least bit surprised to see John Wayne playing a bad guy. I love how the film sets him up as the typical John Wayne 'tougher than saddle leather' leader, and maybe he's a bit more harsh here with his men but you don't expect the men to revolt. It's Wayne playing Wayne with the slow dawn that this guy doesn't have that softer side.

Montgomery Clift holds a strange fascination for me, much like others with James Dean. A career so promising, so troubled, so unfortunately short. Sometimes his resemblance to Tom Cruise is a distraction because then I wonder if he might've had as legendary a career. He might even be a better actor, but Cruise is often under-valued on that count.

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P.S. I have now reached a milestone for this marathon: 50 films down!
CONGRTULATIONS! I think the overwhelming majority have been positive experiences for you, and even some of the average and poor ones have provided context for the genre.

Corndog

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Re: Westerns
« Reply #271 on: February 21, 2018, 08:00:28 AM »
You don't seem the least bit surprised to see John Wayne playing a bad guy. I love how the film sets him up as the typical John Wayne 'tougher than saddle leather' leader, and maybe he's a bit more harsh here with his men but you don't expect the men to revolt. It's Wayne playing Wayne with the slow dawn that this guy doesn't have that softer side.

You make a good point about Wayne becoming the bad guy, but I was pretty much soured of him right away after he left his woman without giving her the chance to come along, and especially too the encounter with the two "deputies" in Texas. I didn't take to him simply enforcing his will to take the land and kill a man just to read over him afterward. So since that feeling creeped in so early in the film, I don't think it was as jarring an experience, I just bought into not liking him.

Montgomery Clift holds a strange fascination for me, much like others with James Dean. A career so promising, so troubled, so unfortunately short. Sometimes his resemblance to Tom Cruise is a distraction because then I wonder if he might've had as legendary a career. He might even be a better actor, but Cruise is often under-valued on that count.

Clift is fascinating to me too. I liked him a lot here, and believe the only other time I've seen him was The Heiress, where I liked him there too. James Dean is who I think of, given his shortened career and charisma. For me though, I play baseball with a guy who is literally a "spittin'" image of Clift. I can't watch him on screen without thinking of him.


CONGRTULATIONS! I think the overwhelming majority have been positive experiences for you, and even some of the average and poor ones have provided context for the genre.

It has definitely been an overwhelmingly positive experience, and no fatigue of the genre at all. There are many many more titles coming up I am more than excited to explore!
"Time is the speed at which the past decays."

Corndog

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Re: Westerns
« Reply #272 on: February 21, 2018, 08:50:34 AM »
Was thinking about how it feels like there have been too many black and white films lately in this marathon, the last 7 in fact, with two more coming up before 3 Godfathers, which is in color. There have only been 8 films in color thus far out of the 50:

Jesse James
Dodge City
Northwest Passage
The Return of Frank James
Western Union
The Virginian (1946)
Canyon Passage
Duel in the Sun

I must say I am definitely looking forward to more color in the proceedings, but I also recognize that including so many films in my marathon, that there will be lots of black and white still to get through before Color becomes the dominating format. It will be interesting to track when that seems to switch, to where color becomes more prominent than black and white.
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Corndog

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Re: Westerns
« Reply #273 on: February 21, 2018, 09:13:45 AM »
It will be interesting to track when that seems to switch, to where color becomes more prominent than black and white.

Did some quick research with my list and it looks as though the end of 1951, beginning of 1952 is roughly when the switch is made. There are some black and white after, of course, but starting with Across the Wide Missouri (#71) in my list and running though the rest of the first 100 films on my list, only 5 of those 30 films are presented in black and white according to IMDb, including NONE of the last 15.

In contrast, of the previous 30 films before Across the Wide Missouri, only 6 are presented in color.

Not a film historian, but I wonder whether this is reflective of the industry in general, or if this is somehow unique to Westerns? Would be curious if anyone knows.
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1SO

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Re: Westerns
« Reply #274 on: February 21, 2018, 09:51:32 AM »
That photo of your baseball friend is eerie similar. Before I read it I thought maybe it was a rare photo of Clift younger or his son.

I think the lack of genre fatigue can also be credited to the chronological approach. You get excited to watch the genre develop technically and mature thematically. You might hear about a 1930s western that has everything you like, but it would be hard to go back now.

Of the 8 color films, which would be your pick for Best Cinematography? For me the clear winner is Canyon Passage, but you may prefer different qualities. The version you watch might also be an influence. Dodge City on Blu Ray pops like Adv. of Robin Hood.

Corndog

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Re: Westerns
« Reply #275 on: February 21, 2018, 09:59:13 AM »
Yea I would have to go with Canyon Passage as well. Unfortunately, I have not had the opportunity to see many of these on Blu Ray. Most of the Blu Rays to this point have been black and white films, like Stagecoach, My Darling Clementine, Fort Apache, Red River, etc.

Still, my library has been a great resource!
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Corndog

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Re: Westerns
« Reply #276 on: February 26, 2018, 11:39:33 AM »
Recapping the first 50 films...

ESSENTIALS
★★★★
Stagecoach (John Ford, 1939)
My Darling Clementine (John Ford, 1946)

★★★ 1/2
The Great Train Robbery (Edwin S. Porter, 1903)
The Covered Wagon (James Cruze, 1923)
The Iron Horse (John Ford, 1924)
3 Bad Men (John Ford, 1926)
Destry Rides Again (George Marshall, 1939)
The Ox-Bow Incident (William A. Wellman, 1943)
Canyon Passage (Jacques Tourneur, 1946)
The Treasure of the Sierra Madre (John Huston, 1948)



Here are some "BUBBLING UNDER" picks...
★★★
Go West (Buster Keaton, 1925)
The Wind (Victor Sjostrom, 1928)
Ruggles of Red Gap (Leo McCarey, 1935)
The Plainsman (Cecil B. DeMille, 1936)
The Cowboy and the Lady (H.C. Potter, 1938)
Jesse James (Henry King, 1939)
Dodge City (Michael Curtiz, 1939)
Virginia City (Michael Curtiz, 1940)
The Return of Frank James (Fritz Lang, 1940)
The Westerner (William Wyler, 1940)
Trail of the Vigilantes (Allan Dwan, 1940)
Arizona (Wesley Ruggles, 1940)
The Spoilers (Ray Enright, 1942)
Tall in the Saddle (Edwin L. Marin, 1944)
Along Came Jones (Stuart Heisler, 1945)
Don't Fence Me In (John English, 1945)
The Virginian (Stuart Gilmore, 1946)
Angel and the Badman (James Edward Grant, 1947)
Fort Apache (John Ford, 1948)
Four Faces West (Alfred E. Green, 1948)
Red River (Howard Hawks, 1948)



AVOID AT ALL COSTS...
★★
Cimarron (Wesley Ruggles, 1931)
Western Union (Fritz Lang, 1941)
The Outlaw (Howard Hughes, 1943)



That leaves only 16 films somewhere else in the middle.
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1SO

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Re: Westerns
« Reply #277 on: February 26, 2018, 12:26:57 PM »
As your sidekick, I'm going to just focus on your recommendations and give a 2nd recommendation to anyone interested in the genre.

Destry Rides Again (George Marshall, 1939)
The Treasure of the Sierra Madre (John Huston, 1948)
Canyon Passage (Jacques Tourneur, 1946)
Red River (Howard Hawks, 1948)
The Westerner (William Wyler, 1940)
The Ox-Bow Incident (William A. Wellman, 1943)
The Spoilers (Ray Enright, 1942)
Trail of the Vigilantes (Allan Dwan, 1940)
3 Bad Men (John Ford, 1926)
My Darling Clementine (John Ford, 1946)
Angel and the Badman (James Edward Grant, 1947)
The Return of Frank James (Fritz Lang, 1940)
Jesse James (Henry King, 1939)
Arizona (Wesley Ruggles, 1940)
Fort Apache (John Ford, 1948)
The Plainsman (Cecil B. DeMille, 1936)


Those first 6 represent Essentials for me. So far all of my Western Essentials have made your list, though just barely with Red River. The next test will be #63. Winchester ’73.

Very excited to get your reaction to Wagon Master (John Ford, 1950).


p.s. Your link for The Plainsman is broken

Corndog

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Re: Westerns
« Reply #278 on: February 26, 2018, 12:51:01 PM »
Which set of 50 has more of your essentials or recommendations, the first 50 or the next 50?
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1SO

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Re: Westerns
« Reply #279 on: February 26, 2018, 01:04:36 PM »
Well, your first 50 covered 45 years, while your next 50 covers less than 8, 1948 continues and 1955 begins. That's why it doesn't surprise me that Winchester is the ONLY Essential in your next 50.

As for other highlights, here is my favorite Western of each complete year from your next 50:
1949: She Wore a Yellow Ribbon
1950: Winchester, though this is a supreme year for Westerns with Wagon Master, The Gunfighter and The Furies, which are better than anything else in this batch of 50.
1951: Only the Valiant
1952: Bend of the River
1953: Shane
1954: Silver Lode, but you have 4 others I'll bet you would rank higher.