Author Topic: Sicario  (Read 5871 times)

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Re: Sicario
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2016, 01:25:17 AM »
the movie can be said to have messages, and if you consider that those messages are a quintessential part of the movie and of the enjoyment of it, I did not find they justified the existence of the movie.

Are you saying that films should be didactic? Do you feel didacticism is essential? I'm not clear what you mean. Did you get the impression I said the film is making a statement because its more ambiguous a film than that. It let me think. It had obvious themes but I don't think theme comprehension is that interesting. I got dragged that way to answer some points made but I started off saying it was a film of tone. A tone of paranoia and oppression that Villeneuve is really good at. Bodies swinging from lampposts in the street? Just across the border. Thumping banging tone. An action film? Who needs that?

I said the tone of this movie is way more important than the plot which, because, the lady is on a "need to know" basis, is what we see from her Pov. I think it confuses people that we leave her behind, but it was the lack of a clear picture that Villeneuve wanted to show us happening and where the interest in his approach lies for me. Again that's not new is it? Every spy or military film does it so that seems clear? The denial of clear information being an SOP; especially since the CIA are pulling such a startling stunt, Brolin and del Toro aren't telling anyone what they are up to. The idea that their bosses need to retain plausible deniability. We don't need that spelled out again we've seen it hundreds of times. What I'm sayings there are no leaps of faith in this film. It is as clear as it needs to be plot wise in the space of a couple of sentences. I don't disagree that this might not be of interest to anyone for them to follow along as it was for me. But I'm wondering why say Blunt and del Toro and Brolin and the explosive start and the desire to unravel what is going on and Deakins.....Deakins!....couldn't keep anyone else with it.

But honestly, to address your common ground issue, I am kinda delighted I'm the only one who gets it (now there's a challenge of a statement). I find nothing comforting about thinking the same as everyone else. That's entirely too Bodysnatchers (or "Puppetmasters" Heinlein's book the film rips off) for me. Like I said I'm weird. I want to fool myself that I'm thinking original thoughts.
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verbALs

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Re: Sicario
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2016, 01:28:02 AM »
I lean towards the death of the author, but I don't lean as far as the death of the film.
I don't know what this means.
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verbALs

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Re: Sicario
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2016, 01:29:44 AM »
Doesn't this idea preclude the existence of bad films? There are no bad movies, only bad viewers?
I'd love for other people to answer this before I do. Pity people don't look in at a spoiler thread until they see the film it cuts down the chance that some interesting people might comment on this question.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 01:32:29 AM by verbALs »
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Re: Sicario
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2016, 01:31:41 AM »
Pretty sure I explained that. It's not a long paragraph. I like having a large part of a film rest on the audience's reaction to it, irrespective of what the author might have intended. But your whole giant post goes as far as saying everything is on the viewer as far as I can tell, to the point where the movie might as well not exist. I was looking for clarification.
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verbALs

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Re: Sicario
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2016, 01:34:38 AM »
Quote
I lean towards the death of the author, but I don't lean as far as the death of the film.
I apologise. I assume this comes from somewhere. It sounds quite specific as if someone said it before, and still I can't connect it with what else you wrote. Can you explain it and the context?
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Re: Sicario
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2016, 01:35:29 AM »
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Re: Sicario
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2016, 01:45:44 AM »
OK so I got what Barthes* means but I don't know why your statement differentiates author from film. They are the same aren't they? They are all stories however they are told. Let's assume there is no difference. No, I wouldn't lean that way. One of my earlier statements to DH is that the directors version of Sicario is far far more interesting, since he got the film made (which is a bit of respect normally lost on the critic), than any alternative version, Blunt-less, or otherwise. That applies to any film. So sticking with a film until it is done and letting an author tell his story to the end, before you make any consideration would be the ideal. What stops that in me or anyone else, is precisely that. Me or anyone else. I stop it happening. I have my reasons but they are my own. The film is eternal and immutable. It doesn't change (directors cut aside). I feel it is better for me to explain what has me liking or disliking a film in me.

*My reaction to this argument is that is highly rhetorical. Just because "The Death of Arthur" was cobbled together by various authors is unusual. Most books are written by a single person in a single timeline. So they can be mined for meaning from religious belief etc of that person. It's a straw man argument that can only be applied if multiple people did contribute. In a collaborative process like the film industry, I would grant that centring too much on the man, the director is a little one tracked. When anyone says "the director thinks this" I am happy to see that as shorthand for "the creators of the movie" because acting like the director did everything is a bit silly since you can see actors on the screen who aren't the director. Comparing across films has significance because it filters out the other influences (to an extent). Common sense.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 01:57:17 AM by verbALs »
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Re: Sicario
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2016, 01:56:48 AM »
No, the whole point of death of the author is that there is a large difference between the author and the film. My formulation of the death of the film is what you describe here, where you seem to be saying that nothing in the film actually matters as far as determining its quality. We're getting around to our old objective/subjective debate (a debate you like to start when you are on the opposing side of a consensus, I've noticed) but that's not really what I care about here.

Straightforward, yes or no answer: Is there such thing as a bad movie?
Follow up: If yes, how can we tell? If no, how can we ever criticize anything?
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verbALs

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Re: Sicario
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2016, 02:00:51 AM »
Actually can we go back to your original questions?

Quote
Doesn't this idea preclude the existence of bad films? There are no bad movies, only bad viewers?

It's a different question that relates to what I said rather than a blank staten of a question. And again I want to invite other answers, before I give my own.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 02:05:10 AM by verbALs »
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Re: Sicario
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2016, 02:05:04 AM »
You do you.
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