Author Topic: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"  (Read 4165 times)

Sandy

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Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2016, 03:30:15 PM »
I'll be back, but need to drop in some Hamilton lyrics, just because. :)


[BURR]
While weíre talking, let me offer you some free advice
Talk less

[HAMILTON]
What?

[BURR]
Smile more

[HAMILTON]
Ha

[BURR]
Donít let them know what youíre against or what youíre for

[HAMILTON]
You canít be serious

[BURR]
You wanna get ahead?

[HAMILTON]
Yes

[BURR]
Fools who run their mouths off wind up dead




You're no fool, verbALs!!! Keep talking!! It's just a great song. :)
"Inside you there's a strength that lies."

verbALs

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Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2016, 03:34:37 PM »
 ;D

Also how pointed is it that the central female characters in GExp are a woman destroyed by a failed wedding day and and a girl she uses as revenge. I don't see Bronte as being able to even conceive of that level of self immolation. Dickens in fact looks like a misogynist by direct comparison.
I used to encourage everyone I knew to make art; I don't do that so much anymore. - Banksy

Sandy

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Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2016, 10:11:28 PM »
Sandy. Have you read Wide Sargasso Sea by Jean Rhys. I think that's correct? Do you know the book and what it's about?

I rebel! No, I didn't know what that book was about before, but I'll not be reading it! My belief in Rochester is too strong to allow for this version to mar his story. He was just as unloved and uncared for as Jane, while growing up and his future was taken away from him, through the greed of his father and older brother. His integrity and good heart become apparent in his attempts at doing all he can for Bertha and his marriage. Even when he cannot stem the madness, he always cares for her, when he could have abandoned her. I will stand for Rochester, no matter what!!! Did I tell you INFP's are passionately loyal to specific people and causes? :D

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Ok what is now bothering me is that the book has a confirmed place as a classic but as a feminist milestone on the scale of Das Kapital for socialism it doesn't register. Do women meet to secretly to affirm that they are intelligent and lot else on a scale way beyond men? Like a secret revolutionary society. You have Jane. Now you have Helen and Miss Temple and they all seem perfect on a paragon level. I'm only half joking. This is amazing. It doesn't make it unreal but the perfection is something like a manifesto. Be these women!  I can't really think of a male counterpoint. In fact it makes the concept of manhood seem complacent compared to this nirvana for young ladies. Yes I know it's cruel. There's an idea in early Christianity of pretty much ignoring the physical aspect of life because all that matters is spirit and that mirrors the school where no one is fed properly and it is justified by bible quotes!

Well, you men got Jesus. :)) Pretty hard act to follow.

Coming from a religious background, I've been immersed in, "be these women" from the get-go, such as Ruth, Esther, Mary... So when I read about Helen and Miss Temple, they fit in nicely with the impossible heights that were before me. I love Jane more so, because of my own shortcomings. When I quoted her words, "I am no angel..." I did so because I really love that quote!! I needed to know a person like her, who was still good and valued and yet embraced her mere mortality! *sigh of relief, gratitude and happiness!* Does this make a lick of sense? There is a lot of pressure for a naturally obedient and giving child, to live up to high ideals, especially when she's distracted by a dreamy and passionate heart. :)


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Amazing as always. 63 pages in. Just amazing.

Because of your praise of what you've read so far of BrontŽ and your enthusiasm for what you've heard of John Barry so far, I'm super excited for you and your coming discoveries of these two artists!

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I can remember Jane standing on a stool and some cruelty in the film but that isn't what is happening. So I'm even more suspicious of that film. If you are supporting the book by supporting the film I still get it but it doesn't seem right in any way. What am I getting wrong?

That scene is coming...

One of the things I love most about Jane Eyre (2011) is the way it is adapted and carefully edited. The choices are hard but I believe they, for the most part, are for the best.

In advertising, the rule for a 30 second commercial is, posit one idea, not three, not two, just one. It's all that will be remembered. Whenever I get sad that certain things from the book aren't being covered, I remember this rule. The stool scene is the fastest, most visual way to get across the evil of Brockelhurst. Helen said it best, "He is not a man of God."
"Inside you there's a strength that lies."

Sandy

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Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2016, 10:28:37 PM »
I'm seeing some contradiction in those first descriptions though. Jane isn't humble. In fact if she is cornered she will give anybody both barrels. She talks about taking a cane from a teacher if she ever tried hitting her.

I'm definitely talking about an adult Jane, when I called her humble in the opening post. :) Interestingly, I learned something as an adult about humility, that I didn't really understand when I was young. I heard someone say, "Humility isn't about bringing yourself down, it's about elevating others around you." That is what Jane does. She see's everyone as potentially equal and valuable. 

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She has though a listening ability. She shuts up as soon as any one has anything important to say. In her examination by Miss a Temple she remembers advice from a couple of sources and quietens her approach to become a more effective communicator. Not quiet not shy. Controlled. So we have two ears and two eyes but one mouth. Our communication should be in that proportion. No I know I'm breaking that rule in here but I acknowledge it in my username which is telling me to be quiet all the time. I know ironic. Verbal was a character who was known to say nothing until something happens that means he won't shut up. But he is fantastically eloquent. In other words don't speak until you have something to say. My only defence is that at the moment that's rather a lot. I expect to shut up and say nothing soon. Maybe.

:))


I was just thinking how wordy I'm being in this thread. I'm a listener by trade, so this a little uncharacteristic of me, except when I get started on stuff like this, which is near and dear to my heart... then watch out!!
"Inside you there's a strength that lies."

Sandy

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Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2016, 10:57:15 PM »
;D

Also how pointed is it that the central female characters in GExp are a woman destroyed by a failed wedding day and and a girl she uses as revenge. I don't see Bronte as being able to even conceive of that level of self immolation. Dickens in fact looks like a misogynist by direct comparison.

oh, this is a whole new thread! Dickens as a writer of women characters. With Amy Doritt, and Esther Summerson in Bleak House, they're so perfect, they're almost martyrs. I can't tell if that is misogynistic or not. :) As for Estella, can you think of a more "household as oppressive prison" as hers was under the "care" of Miss Havisham? *shudders!*

I'm going to give Dickens a pass though, just on the fact he re-wrote the ending of GExp, so as to give Estelle redemption and renewal. I forgive him anything for that kindness. :)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 10:59:44 PM by Sandy »
"Inside you there's a strength that lies."

verbALs

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Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2016, 12:27:33 AM »
Re: Brocklehurst- but the school of women completely disarm the idiot. If the film gives him power over Jane that the protection these women appear (at page 63) to give Jane then that's a serious misrepresentation. The stool incident is a moment of emancipation, almost, as Jane really joins the coven....I mean group. The entire operation of the school seems to be to channel the ignorance and evil of the male world away and around these girls.

Proof?  Helen's speech. I can't write it all. Her view of the world that is laid out to Jane is quite stunning. "We shall put off (our faults) in putting off our corruptible bodies; when debasement and sin will fall from us with this cumbrous frame of flesh"

Now I thought it was Jane spouting off again because the speech is so long. Then it turns out to be Helen (whose fate my missus just spoilt!). That's what I mean by the perfection of women here not just Jane.

It is so empowering.

I get what you mean. Men are born into an empowered state. Jesus is that embodiment. "Be like him" HIM. Not you ladies. I understand the pernicious nature of the message. I honestly feel my daughters have never been reigned back by subconscious bigotry but of course that subliminal state of restraint is beyond my wit to understand. I only look at the result. I don't rule my house. I live in it at the forebearance of my partner and daughter currently. She just got an offer she wants to take to continue her architecture course. She has will in abundance. Neither are slow in telling me to shut up.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 12:33:47 AM by verbALs »
I used to encourage everyone I knew to make art; I don't do that so much anymore. - Banksy

smirnoff

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Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2016, 12:09:29 AM »
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 12:11:49 AM by smirnoff »

Sandy

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Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2016, 12:17:42 AM »
 :))




I'll be back to reply to your post tomorrow, verbALs!
"Inside you there's a strength that lies."

verbALs

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Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2016, 02:45:02 AM »
A greenness grew over those brown beds, which, freshening daily, suggested the thought that Hope traversed them at night, and left each morning brighter traces of her steps.

Now that's just showing off!

BrontŽ is saying "I can keep this up all day you know"

Even Hope is a girl.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 03:17:32 AM by verbALs »
I used to encourage everyone I knew to make art; I don't do that so much anymore. - Banksy

Sandy

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Re: Jane Eyre "You almost unearthly thing!"
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2016, 03:32:36 PM »
Re: Brocklehurst- but the school of women completely disarm the idiot. If the film gives him power over Jane that the protection these women appear (at page 63) to give Jane then that's a serious misrepresentation. The stool incident is a moment of emancipation, almost, as Jane really joins the coven....I mean group. The entire operation of the school seems to be to channel the ignorance and evil of the male world away and around these girls.

They do have small victories, that he isn't even aware of. But, his iron-fisted control can't be bypassed in the end. He's undermined their well being for so long, some succumb and the others, even with all their untiring efforts, can't keep them safe.

I find it so interesting that he doesn't have control over his own family. They seem impervious to him, even flaunting their "worldliness." I can't help but think his excessive fervor in what he's doing to the school is related to his powerlessness at home.

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Proof?  Helen's speech. I can't write it all. Her view of the world that is laid out to Jane is quite stunning. "We shall put off (our faults) in putting off our corruptible bodies; when debasement and sin will fall from us with this cumbrous frame of flesh"

Now I thought it was Jane spouting off again because the speech is so long. Then it turns out to be Helen (whose fate my missus just spoilt!). That's what I mean by the perfection of women here not just Jane.

It is so empowering.

Oh, how I love Helen. :) I hadn't read her speech in a long time, but it changed me in a big way when I first encountered it. I too wanted justice, like Jane. I too wanted things to be made right. Even though I haven't gone back to the book a lot, there is a song I listen to often when I need to remind myself and it brings me back to her perspective. It's Helen's song from the Broadway musical. 



I personally believe we'll be more than a spark of spirit after this life, but her understanding of where real strength comes from, is so compelling. This time through that section of the chapter, the part that really has had me pondering, is the outburst from Jane and Helen's response.

Helen - If all the world hated you, and believed you wicked, while your own
conscience approved you, and absolved you from guilt, you would not
be without friends.


Jane - No; I know I should think well of myself; but that is not enough:
if others don't love me I would rather die than live--I cannot bear
to be solitary and hated, Helen. Look here; to gain some real
affection from you, or Miss Temple, or any other whom I truly love,
I would willingly submit to have the bone of my arm broken, or to
let a bull toss me, or to stand behind a kicking horse, and let it
dash its hoof at my chest--
         (This is so Jane! :) )

Helen - Hush, Jane! you think too much of the love of human beings; you are
too impulsive, too vehement; the sovereign hand that created your
frame, and put life into it, has provided you with other resources
than your feeble self, or than creatures feeble as you. Besides
this earth, and besides the race of men, there is an invisible world
and a kingdom of spirits: that world is round us, for it is everywhere; and those spirits watch us, for they are commissioned to guard us...


My new-age sister believes this and it's similar to what I've been taught. It's just that it's a really big concept, but hearing it from Helen, it brings me a type of comfort and it also reminds me to not rely on other's approval for my own worth. :)

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I get what you mean. Men are born into an empowered state. Jesus is that embodiment. "Be like him" HIM. Not you ladies. I understand the pernicious nature of the message.

Yes. And I think it's not even intentional, for the most part. Patriarchy is a self perpetuating conundrum.

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I honestly feel my daughters have never been reigned back by subconscious bigotry but of course that subliminal state of restraint is beyond my wit to understand. I only look at the result. I don't rule my house. I live in it at the forebearance of my partner and daughter currently. She just got an offer she wants to take to continue her architecture course. She has will in abundance. Neither are slow in telling me to shut up.

:D

You and your partner did good! It's a difficult thing to keep the pendulum in the middle, so just remember, your strengths and gifts have been just as important and vital to your daughter's well being and to your home's equilibrium.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 03:35:54 PM by Sandy »
"Inside you there's a strength that lies."