Author Topic: Captain America: Civil War  (Read 6888 times)

verbALs

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2016, 07:58:23 AM »
Sharon's very cute.

There's a bit where Sharon and the Widow are kicking the Winter Soldier in the face. I mean that bits not for the kiddies. :-[
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Paul Phoenix

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2016, 08:00:36 AM »
Sharon's very cute.

I remember the entire theater bursting into laughter when Sam and Bucky nod in approval at Cap hooking up with Sharon. LOL I couldn't help but join them. Oh, that was a great scene.
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verbALs

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2016, 08:04:20 AM »
You were waiting for the reaction. Very well played.

She mentioned Peggy giving her first thigh holster. Slight frisson there.

"I thought it was a water truck!" Paul Rudd is very funny.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 08:08:26 AM by verbALs »
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verbALs

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2016, 03:10:06 PM »
All 3 of the "disasters" stated as reason for the Sukovia Accords involved a greater good argument.

I loved those clips of the hulk burying people in rubble and the Helicarriers causing the Potamac to engulf bystanders.

Each case; an alien invasion, a super weapon/ AI mass murder and an ELE (Busta Rhymes great album) would have caused exponentially greater casualties. I like that this argument is sidelined. It creates dramatic conflict and Starks guilt has now built to crippling levels. It does explain Caps attitude in one way. You might expect a soldier to be the first to get in line. Rhodes always does. Sam follows Cap like a commanding officer.

Cap still living in the 40s. He understands "why we fight" The greater good is an instinctive reaction. He acts somewhat like it isn't something he needs to explain....and this isn't a Nolan film.
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Paul Phoenix

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2016, 03:25:04 PM »
....and this isn't a Nolan film.

There's the problem. ;D

Jokes aside...
Cap still living in the 40s. He understands "why we fight" The greater good is an instinctive reaction. He acts somewhat like it isn't something he needs to explain

This is a good point. Wish you would have brought it up from the beginning. :P Might think about this during a rewatch.
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to end up all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is ending up with people who make you feel all alone." - Lance Clayton (played by Robin Williams), World's Greatest Dad

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verbALs

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2016, 03:37:01 PM »
Sorry. I'll attempt to do better next time.  ;D

No, I'm still thinking about the film. I can understand anybody losing interest and not giving a film any more time. It happens the same for me all the time. I have the minimum expectation that a film will keep me engaged until it ends. Then you might have a chance to really see what the film is trying to explore. To say. But if it's boring who cares.
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Corndog

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2016, 01:10:27 PM »
I don't think there is resolution needed to the collateral damage problem. As verbALs has pointed out, this collateral damage, especially to Cap's perspective, is a necessary evil that is less than the necessary evil of third party oversight put forth by the accords. WWII experience definitely informs this position.

Really liked this one. Perhaps Marvel's best to date.
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verbALs

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2016, 01:49:28 PM »
What you hope from Cap are some very unique elements; man out of time, inate leadership and qualities that inform that particular era. The holocaust and the justification of a-bombing Japan. These are unique moral instances. They represent absolute ideas of evil but also absolute ideas of justice; the correct application of military power. So many other undeniably powerful images like the Blitz, the Dresden firebombing, the massacre of the Warsaw ghetto, DDay or Leningrad. A succession of images that go beyond explanation as reasons for fighting or using power. Cap actually needs to show the attitudes of an age because if he tells it he does so in this "sophisticated" age of cynical Tony Stark. Caps character should build towards an unspoken authority but I doubted these films could do that because it took decades of stories to achieve. I think this film puts those ineffable ideas in light where they become clearer. It's gratifying to see. It's also a film that a ten year old might be able to see. I'm very happy with that two speed aspect to the film.
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1SO

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2016, 08:52:19 PM »
I notice some of my points are being discussed already, but I need to brain dump my thoughts. This is going to be a lot to take in at once.



The action in Winter Soldier was the perfect level of grand scale without being overstuffed or overly-frenetic. I wonder how much further Marvel can push it because it went right up to the edge several times here. You can start right at the beginning, which would occasionally go to Bourne style editing, especially during the fight with Crossbones. What were those things on his arms and how did they work? We never get a good look at them. The guy just seemed to have large amounts of firepower coming off both shoulders.

The Russo Brothers do such a good job keeping so many characters engaged in the battles, but I noticed Scarlet Witch and Vision tend to spend more time on the sidelines, appearing for last minute rescues. There's already too much with people leaping and falling from great distances without injury. (There's a moment where Cap gets out of a flipping car that's like something I saw in a hilarious Indian or Turkish film, only here it's better edited.) I like these moments and small doses and when done in a reasonably convincing manner, but here everybody's doing it all the time. Spider-Man survives bone-breaking tosses and Black Panther doesn't even flinch while an attack chopper sprays him with bullets.

Getting back to Vision and Scarlet Witch, they're too powerful for these sequences. I like their relationship, and the way Scarlet is like Elsa in Frozen, so powerful everyone is afraid of her. But when Captain America has her draw all the gas grenade smoke from the building, it's cheating. Might as well drag the men outside too. Seems like most of these battles could've been over instantly with her freezing everyone in place. Meanwhile Vision passes through everything and fires a beam of unknown power, though it seems like it would slice Captain America's shield in half... or Tony Stark if it cared too.

Moving forward I would be all for Vision and Scarlet Witch getting killed. Just to level the field a little. For much of the film there was a feeling that the MCU has reached the point where it could start killing off some characters we care about. The film could've benefitted from some death. But they even back away from Bucky, perhaps the most obvious choice for creating peace through sacrifice. Where's Joss Whedon when you need him?

I get that we're now of an age when we don't want our heroes claiming no responsibility for the death and destruction in battle. This all still seems to be fallout from Man of Steel. But do I want to see action movie being so responsible? I don't like taking events like the epic climax of Avengers Assemble and placing the blame on our heroes for inviting such chaos. The inciting incident with Crossbones is the fault of Crossbones, but Cap even takes the blame for that one.

The genre is becoming self-reflecive in a way I can no longer enjoy. So even during the airport fight, which is completely abandoned, I start mentally calculating the cost of all the smashing. Or during Black Panther's highway chase, I'm now thinking of innocent drivers who suffered injuries and vehicular damage when the overpass came crashing down. This is also going to place extra handcuffs on the writers who must now carefully consider locations for all future battles.

The two Avenger films both suffer by placing the real objective somewhere inside an army of pawns. I like ditching the hoards of similar enemies for smaller character-specific battles. That's partly why the airport battle rocks, we know everyone. They all have weight, which is why it's such a kick to see them have at each other. Even the ones who have never met before. (Hawkeye has a great line about that and almost everyone is surprised by Ant-Man.) The Airport Battle may be the greatest battle the MCU will ever produce. It's the pinnacle of what these films can do. I honestly don't know how they can hope to top it.

But...

Is the motivation for the battle any more grounded than in Dawn of Justice? Their are differences of opinion that have been building for a couple of films now, but these are not characters who will come to lethal blows over these differences. The film hits a point - right around Peter Parker's intro - where the Civil War no longer flows naturally but is meeting the promise made by the poster and title. I don't believe most of these people would choose a side and defend it with force, when they can see the other person's point. There's something false about Hawkeye trading blows with Black Widow while asking, "we're still friends, right?" Spider-Man doesn't have regrets about taking on a legendary Avenger like Captain America? He doesn't even question it? I think the only person looking to actually kill is Black Panther going after Bucky Barnes. So isn't the epic battle more of a Superhero workout? And if that is true, why is there so much lethal force being used? Captain America would have to know about Spider-Man to know what he's doing isn't going to kill the kid. Ant-Man is mucking about in the Iron Man suit, but for all he knows he could pull the wrong wire and kill Stark.

Let's talk about Zemo's plan, and maybe I just need some clarification here. He's trying to find out about the mission back in 1991, but does he already have the surveillance video of the auto crash? It seems that he's had this master plan of turning Cap and Iron Man against each other for a while, but when we first meet him, he's trying to learn about Bucky's mission in 1991. In order for his plan to make sense and for him to have the deep access and knowledge, he would have to know about Stark's father before the film begins.

-- I agree with everyone else that Tom Holland and the MCU take on Spider-Man is really something else. I'm ready to see ho he'll play at feature length. I also think Chadwick Boseman is ready to burn up the screen as Black Panther. I wasn't interested in this character before, but I'm excited to see his solo movie now.

-- The humor, which continues to give Marvel a colossal edge over DC. This may be less joke-filled than Age of Ultron and that's probably a good thing. The airport battle is one of the funniest scenes of the year, but I love the small scenes, like Bucky asking Sam if the seat on the VW moves up. Who would think to give The Winter Soldier some comedy? So nice. Ant-Man is funnier here than in his entire movie.

-- There's debate about whether this is a true Captain America or Avengers 2.5. I think it's as much Iron Man 4 as anything. I'd like to see a screen time clock, because I think Downey gets more than Evans, and he mostly wrestles with the responsibilities of his actions just like in his solo films.

-- I miss S.H.I.E.L.D. It gave Captain America a home base, something he could anchor his patriotism too. The reason why this doesn't feel enough like a Captain America film is there isn't enough of him going on missions for Nick Fury. He's on his own too much, and he's not even conflicted about it. There's too much globetrotting, and America only becomes an important part of a group mission.
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1SO

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2016, 11:23:57 PM »
it forgets an important theme that's set up in the first act - the collateral damage the superheroes have caused the people. Where did that plot-point fly off to?
Yes. They talk around it, but they don't use the debate beyond saying to the audience "we're aware of the and we will be mindful of it in the future." The moment Steve brings up the possibility of a world-threatening menace and the Avengers not being legally allowed to fight it, I thought "that's exactly where I thought we were headed," but instead we get a lone nut who's able to circumvent a lot of security and Stark doing his usual thing of needing to realize that he needs a keeper. Tony realizes he made it personal... again. And there's not thought that he might actually grow from it this time and not fly off the handle again. Stark doesn't grow, but instead repeats the same mistakes.

And again, it's not his movie. We should be dealing with Steve having to defend a best friend who can be turned into a destructive weapon if a few words are spoken. The personal conflict should be Cap having to defeat and possibly kill his best friend in order to serve his country. In the trailer, Downey does an amazing line delivery:

"He's my friend."
"So was I."

There's hurt and betrayal in his voice. That's powerful. In the movie, the tone is different and the line becomes a quip preceding a mighty blow.


Because honestly, after a grudge match between Tony and Steve, the film ends almost immediately without talking about what The Avengers should do about the death toll at all, leaving me hanging. I'm not kidding!
Yes. What are they going to do the next time Hulk is part of the team? Try explaining all this to him.


Also, there is one biased complaint against Spidey - he's a government fink, siding against Cap. I really wanted to see Spidey being sensible enough to at least see that Steve might not be a bad guy...
I mentioned something like this in my post, so it's not just you.
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