Author Topic: #615: Rogue One / 2016's Best Performances and More  (Read 630 times)

Totoro

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Re: #615: Rogue One / 2016's Best Performances and More
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2016, 04:23:20 AM »
I read the whole article, but still I disagree with the premise that this is the first STAR WARS film to acknowledge it's about war, it's just the first STAR WARS film to say that war is messy and morally ambiguous.

Unless you don't think there's a film out there about war that isn't inherently anti-war.

Teproc

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Re: #615: Rogue One / 2016's Best Performances and More
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2016, 04:34:05 AM »
I read the whole article, but still I disagree with the premise that this is the first STAR WARS film to acknowledge it's about war, it's just the first STAR WARS film to say that war is messy and morally ambiguous.

Unless you don't think there's a film out there about war that isn't inherently anti-war.

Well Rogue One sure isn't, so there's one. It practically plays as a call to war, while acknowledging what rebellion means in a way that no SW movie has done before. I'd argue it's just as manicheist morally : there's no doubt about the righteousness of their cause and the evilness of their enemies, at any point. The ends justify the means, because that's what war is, and that is how it differs significantly. Really we agree I think, it's just that I don't think "having war in the title but playing it as purely adventure" = "acknowledging it's about war"

Totoro

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Re: #615: Rogue One / 2016's Best Performances and More
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2016, 05:25:00 AM »
I read the whole article, but still I disagree with the premise that this is the first STAR WARS film to acknowledge it's about war, it's just the first STAR WARS film to say that war is messy and morally ambiguous.

Unless you don't think there's a film out there about war that isn't inherently anti-war.

Well Rogue One sure isn't, so there's one. It practically plays as a call to war, while acknowledging what rebellion means in a way that no SW movie has done before. I'd argue it's just as manicheist morally : there's no doubt about the righteousness of their cause and the evilness of their enemies, at any point. The ends justify the means, because that's what war is, and that is how it differs significantly. Really we agree I think, it's just that I don't think "having war in the title but playing it as purely adventure" = "acknowledging it's about war"

What about if it's in the opening crawl? Or if characters actively talk about the war? Or what if people are actually fighting battles that are part of the war? It's not just that. All of these films are war films.

I don't understand what the point is? Adam expressed shock that this was a STAR WARS war film, but all of the films so far have been placed within a setting of war and they all use war film tropes.

Teproc

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Re: #615: Rogue One / 2016's Best Performances and More
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2016, 06:53:43 AM »
In the setting of, yes. War movie tropes though ? The Star Wars movies are adventure films, not war films. Look at the climax to Return of the Jedi : you have Han Solo prancing around and tapping stormtroopers on the shoulder : that's not war. I guess there is the battle of Yavin in the first one... but even then it's pretty abstracted and focused on Luke's personal journey, Han sweeping in etc.

Here's the thing. I'd call Rogue One a war film. I wouldn't call any of the other films in the franchise war films. Would you ?

Adam

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Re: #615: Rogue One / 2016's Best Performances and More
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2016, 07:19:47 AM »
The whole 'but it's called Star Wars' argument is silly because it's pretty clear that 99% of it, maybe more, is just typical trolly semantics bullshit - "We caught you saying something that seems kind of dumb. Everybody jump on this." You can adjust this percentage as it relates to you personally, but it's an interesting thing to watch people see a common theme expressed in reviews of this movie and the kneejerk response isn't, 'hey, these are generally thoughtful people who must be responding to something the movie is actually conveying.'
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 07:22:26 AM by Adam »
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kwikle

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Re: #615: Rogue One / 2016's Best Performances and More
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2016, 09:52:11 AM »
I think I have a very different impression of this film from The Force Awakens. TFA had massive opportunity to break new ground with new characters, new arcs, and new ways of approaching the canon, but Abrams elected to do a dance remix instead. I liked the new characters from Star Wars TFA, but it felt like the film was basically just a rehash of Episode IV that relied on the nostalgia of Han/Leah/Luke/Chewie to ensure it had a positive vibe. If anything that film dragged whenever it relied on them (old star wars), and soared when it involved the new characters. Plus the massive NEW death star was more pointless and less imaginative than anything in Rogue One.

Rogue One if anything was braver and relied LESS on canon to make it go. The story relied on a fragment of Episode IV and did pretty well with it. I agree there were some clunky (non-working) plot elements with Cassian and Urso and "the mission" which I wonder if that came down to editing or what. But the end sequence and how they managed the handoff to Epsiode IV was fairly brave, and inventive.

Teproc

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Re: #615: Rogue One / 2016's Best Performances and More
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2016, 10:41:47 AM »
I would argue that Rogue One doesn't rely on nostalgia any less than TFA... and I much prefer the way TFA does it (with reservations on some stuff, mostly the Starkiller Base obviously). In TFA, nostalgia is basically what the film is about... it's a new generation having to pick things up from the old. In Rogue One, it's just winks, which is perhaps easier to overlook, but a heck of a lot more annoying. It's a small thing, but we get three shots of that sentry : those shots exist for no other purpose than "Remember that ?". Say what you will about TFA, but at least it tackled nostalgia head-on even if it didn't do it perfectly, Rogue One just uses it as a cheap trick.

Adam

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Re: #615: Rogue One / 2016's Best Performances and More
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2016, 10:44:36 AM »
I would argue that Rogue One doesn't rely on nostalgia any less than TFA... and I much prefer the way TFA does it (with reservations on some stuff, mostly the Starkiller Base obviously). In TFA, nostalgia is basically what the film is about... it's a new generation having to pick things up from the old. In Rogue One, it's just winks, which is perhaps easier to overlook, but a heck of a lot more annoying. It's a small thing, but we get three shots of that sentry : those shots exist for no other purpose than "Remember that ?". Say what you will about TFA, but at least it tackled nostalgia head-on even if it didn't do it perfectly, Rogue One just uses it as a cheap trick.
Exactly. The dance remix notion is completely lost on me. He took the larger mythos and inserted new, interesting characters into it and built a foundation for the next installments to build upon. RO is the untethered one that truly could've broken new ground.
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Totoro

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Re: #615: Rogue One / 2016's Best Performances and More
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2016, 02:30:00 AM »
I would argue that Rogue One doesn't rely on nostalgia any less than TFA... and I much prefer the way TFA does it (with reservations on some stuff, mostly the Starkiller Base obviously). In TFA, nostalgia is basically what the film is about... it's a new generation having to pick things up from the old. In Rogue One, it's just winks, which is perhaps easier to overlook, but a heck of a lot more annoying. It's a small thing, but we get three shots of that sentry : those shots exist for no other purpose than "Remember that ?". Say what you will about TFA, but at least it tackled nostalgia head-on even if it didn't do it perfectly, Rogue One just uses it as a cheap trick.

Well... it's a prequel that - and I've counted - is mostly three days til the event that is STAR WARS: A NEW HOPE, the winks, which are few, are more excusable here than THE FORCE AWAKENS which makes the case that this entire galaxy, with its millions and millions of stories, only truly centers around one or two families. Plus, it's set 30 years after, so I don't understand how everyone finds it excusable? The Millennium Falcon wink (the garbage will do) was far more eye-rolling/annoying than anything in the entirety of ROGUE ONE, and is a major sign that pretty much everything that goes on from that plot forward relies completely on knowledge of the Original Trilogy, so much so that the old characters take over the entire narrative's thrust. You won't find this kind of thing in THE PHANTOM MENACE or A NEW HOPE or even ROGUE ONE which contains so little time spent on the Rebellion or the larger context of things than just Jyn's story.

A little bit of a side note - what do you think about this?


Teproc

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Re: #615: Rogue One / 2016's Best Performances and More
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2016, 03:54:01 AM »
I'm not saying the references to the original trilogy in TFA are "excusable", I'm saying the film makes it its subject instead of only using it for cheap "remember this ?" moments, as Rogue One does. I'd argue that Rogue One is much more cynical and annoying in its use of nostalgia.