Author Topic: The Last Jedi  (Read 4247 times)

1SO

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #110 on: June 04, 2018, 10:40:41 PM »
Further evidence that you and I watch movies in very different ways. Monomyth, Carl Jung and Robert A Johnson never enter into my thinking when I'm being entertained by the adventure. The video largely plays the argument that Force Awakens fails because it too closely resembles A New Hope while Last Jedi fails harder by not following expectations. Ultimately, the same video supports why I like The Last Jedi so much and why Benecio del Toro's DJ might be the best character in all of Star Wars.

The video connected to something called Why Star Wars: The Last Jedi is a Complete Cinematic Failure, which is as overinflated in its opinion as the title suggests. And yet, look past the constant negativity and general poor manners and the points made in that video is the best argument I've seen yet against the film. I don't agree with it, but I very much understand it and how it could lead someone to view the series as fanboy knock-offs.
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oldkid

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #111 on: June 05, 2018, 12:17:46 AM »
I like the video and generally agree with the analysis of how Johnson is trying to break down the binary viewpoint and affirming that the Force is self-balancing.  But I think the final third of the film re-affirms the fact of the Force self-balancing.  If Rey had agreed with Ren to rule the galaxy together, it would have only been superficially a balance.  In reality, the dark side would have been in charge, with both seeking power without balance.  The balance is in the conflict.  Thus, for the Force to achieve balance, the Force had to re-establish the power of the good, and the conflict must continue. 

What I would love to see is the conflict happening in something other than war or destruction, but that is kinda the calling card of the dark side, so I guess not.
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Will

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #112 on: June 05, 2018, 03:36:00 PM »
I like the video and generally agree with the analysis of how Johnson is trying to break down the binary viewpoint and affirming that the Force is self-balancing.  But I think the final third of the film re-affirms the fact of the Force self-balancing.  If Rey had agreed with Ren to rule the galaxy together, it would have only been superficially a balance. In reality, the dark side would have been in charge, with both seeking power without balance.  The balance is in the conflict.  Thus, for the Force to achieve balance, the Force had to re-establish the power of the good, and the conflict must continue. 

What I would love to see is the conflict happening in something other than war or destruction, but that is kinda the calling card of the dark side, so I guess not.

Would it, though? This scene is preceded with Kylo killing Snoke and the two killing the rest of the guards. Kylo is willing to explore a middle ground that Luke alluded to (true balance) but this was crushed with her deciding not to join him, so the two will always have to fight, the cycle begins again, meaning that the poor will be continue to be exploited through the myth that salvation will come through the light side (but it never really comes for them - as we have seen, the Jedi Order was thoroughly incompetent once they had absolute power). If the Jedi Order had control during the prequels (and lost) then the Sith had control in the original trilogy (and lost), then are all we going back to is a complete reiteration of the original trilogy?

oldkid

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #113 on: June 06, 2018, 03:02:21 PM »
I think Ren lied about his motivation in the red room.  If he didn't, why did he spend the final third of the film trying to eradicate the rebellion, to eradicate the light?  Because Ray said "no"?  I think he pursued the eradication of the light because he felt that he could be the personification of the balance on his own, but his actions say that he is on the dark side.  If he wasn't the dark side, the force wouldn't have called up Ray from nowheresville.

Ren, of course, is excellent at deceiving, at hiding his thoughts.  So I suspect that he was doing the same with Ray, but that Ray suspected what his real motivation was-- to put her aside as a competitor.  And the final part of the film showed that Ren's real motivation was to eradicate the light side.
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Will

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #114 on: June 06, 2018, 03:13:53 PM »
I think Ren lied about his motivation in the red room.  If he didn't, why did he spend the final third of the film trying to eradicate the rebellion, to eradicate the light?  Because Ray said "no"?  I think he pursued the eradication of the light because he felt that he could be the personification of the balance on his own, but his actions say that he is on the dark side.  If he wasn't the dark side, the force wouldn't have called up Ray from nowheresville.

Ren, of course, is excellent at deceiving, at hiding his thoughts.  So I suspect that he was doing the same with Ray, but that Ray suspected what his real motivation was-- to put her aside as a competitor.  And the final part of the film showed that Ren's real motivation was to eradicate the light side.


Ah, but he wasn't moving forward to eradicate the Light side. He was moving forward to eradicate the Rebellion. Remember DJ? How he saw that the Rebellion bought their weapons from the same manufacturer as the First Order? The Rebellion should be destroying the manufacturers, the rich - but their goal IS absolute power over the First Order, not a direct challenge to destroy the systems that help create then benefit these two opposing sides. Rey's arc in the first movie was to believe that her parents would still come for her. Rey's arc in this is, again, her belief that the Rebellion is the correct side. She is, in many ways, a conservative or a neoliberal, believing that the solution is ultimately the eradication of the Sith and that that would solve everything, but as we have seen with THE FORCE AWAKENS, everything just slid back into place.

I think the point that you can come back to me with is that - ok, Kylo should eradicate the Rebellion, but he should also eradicate his own First Order. That's what remains to be seen, but he already took the first steps to do so.

Will

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #115 on: June 06, 2018, 03:21:32 PM »
Something dawned on me that Rey needs to lead Kylo to the path of the upper 1% - the manufacturers - and perhaps that's the arc of the third movie in this trilogy. I ultimately doubt that this would happen, but it could serve as the major counterpoint. What Kylo sees is utter destruction of everything, what Rey sees is destruction of the systems that got them there. Is there a third viewpoint?

DarkeningHumour

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #116 on: June 06, 2018, 04:00:17 PM »
I think Ren lied about his motivation in the red room.  If he didn't, why did he spend the final third of the film trying to eradicate the rebellion, to eradicate the light?  Because Ray said "no"?  I think he pursued the eradication of the light because he felt that he could be the personification of the balance on his own, but his actions say that he is on the dark side.  If he wasn't the dark side, the force wouldn't have called up Ray from nowheresville.

Ren, of course, is excellent at deceiving, at hiding his thoughts.  So I suspect that he was doing the same with Ray, but that Ray suspected what his real motivation was-- to put her aside as a competitor.  And the final part of the film showed that Ren's real motivation was to eradicate the light side.

I disagree. I think Ren attacked the rebels out of spite. He threw one of his tantrums to get back at Ray by annihilating the people she chose over him. You make him seem calculating when he is unhinged.
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oldkid

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #117 on: June 06, 2018, 05:24:09 PM »
And now we get bogged down in motivations, etc, which isn't going to be determined except in our own assumptions.

An attack on the manufacturers would be great, but I agree, I don't think that's going to happen. 

Nevertheless, Rian Johnson injected so many new ideas, I think there are a number of excellent directions to go.
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DarkeningHumour

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #118 on: June 07, 2018, 03:12:18 AM »
And we all know how JJ Abrams likes to take franchises into new, bold directions.

(one might say, boldly go where no man has gone before)
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oldkid

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Re: The Last Jedi
« Reply #119 on: June 08, 2018, 12:36:57 AM »

I disagree. I think Ren attacked the rebels out of spite. He threw one of his tantrums to get back at Ray by annihilating the people she chose over him. You make him seem calculating when he is unhinged.

Thought about this today.

Ren is much like Anakin, impulsive, moving toward the light one minute and dark the next, in no way the kind of person who can help bring balance.  The dark side seems to like impulsive young men and older men who thirst after power.  How could such an impulsive, bitter young man be partner to Ray's good side?  How could this bring balance?  Perhaps Ray was looking for a partner in the force, or she just liked his abs, but in the end, he would be an abusive partner.  She should absolutely say no.  And, again, the final third of the movie shows why.
"It's not art unless it has the potential to be a disaster." Bansky