Author Topic: #660: The Last Jedi / Call Me By Your Name  (Read 159 times)

pixote

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#660: The Last Jedi / Call Me By Your Name
« on: December 15, 2017, 04:51:08 AM »


If 2015’s “The Force Awakens” was an explicit attempt to resurrect the rousing adventure and sly humor of the original Star Wars, then it was reasonable to assume that the latest installment in the franchise - Rian Johnson's THE LAST JEDI - might follow in the footsteps of the series’ darkest chapter: “The Empire Strikes Back.” On this week’s show, Adam and Josh discuss a film that finds clever ways to acknowledge what has come before, while making a mark as a fresh, stylish and distinct new entry in the saga. Plus, thoughts on two Golden Brick candidates, LADY MACBETH and LOVING VINCENT, and Luca Guadagnino's acclaimed new film CALL ME BY YOUR NAME.

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I think I'd love how awkward it'd be, or how awkward it should be.

AliceGuyBlache

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Re: #660: The Last Jedi / Call Me By Your Name
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2017, 12:43:46 PM »


If 2015’s “The Force Awakens” was an explicit attempt to resurrect the rousing adventure and sly humor of the original Star Wars, then it was reasonable to assume that the latest installment in the franchise - Rian Johnson's THE LAST JEDI - might follow in the footsteps of the series’ darkest chapter: “The Empire Strikes Back.” On this week’s show, Adam and Josh discuss a film that finds clever ways to acknowledge what has come before, while making a mark as a fresh, stylish and distinct new entry in the saga. Plus, thoughts on two Golden Brick candidates, LADY MACBETH and LOVING VINCENT, and Luca Guadagnino's acclaimed new film CALL ME BY YOUR NAME.

mp3 | episode details

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AliceGuyBlache

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Re: #660: The Last Jedi / Call Me By Your Name
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2017, 10:29:13 PM »
*SPOILERS FOR CALL ME BY YOUR NAME FOLLOW HERE ON IN MY CONVERSATION WITH ADAM AND JOSH*

I was a little disappointed by the review of CALL ME BY YOUR NAME, specifically this discussion over the morality of hedonism. I feel it misses the forest for the trees a little bit. It seems as both of you fail to acknowledge that this is set in the 1980s Italy where homosexuality, despite being a legal activity, was still heavily looked down upon. Did you both miss that long take where Elio makes his intentions known with Oliver that then tilts up to look at the cross of the Catholic church? The entire monologue at the end isn't just affirming that homosexuality is OK with the Dad, but saying that homosexuality is OK in all contexts, that love ultimately matters more than what society thinks. This is also highlighted by the subtle reconciliation between Elio and Marzia - she's sympathetic because she knows that he had this homosexual experience and that, whether or not it's acceptable by society, it's still painful because the relationship has to fight to be acknowledged.

This whole "argument for hedonism" is a little shortsighted when you take the context of the story fully into view. If homosexuals weren't persecuted for their sexuality back in 1980s Italy and US, then I could understand that argument, but when so much pain and fear surrounds what it means to be gay, it makes little sense.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 08:04:28 PM by AliceGuyBlache »

Josh

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Re: #660: The Last Jedi / Call Me By Your Name
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2017, 12:30:39 PM »
I was a little disappointed by the review of CALL ME BY YOUR NAME, specifically this discussion over the morality of hedonism. I feel it misses the forest for the trees a little bit. It seems as both of you fail to acknowledge that this is set in the 1980s Italy where homosexuality, despite being a legal activity, was still heavily looked down upon. Did you both miss that long take where Elio makes his intentions known with Oliver that then tilts up to look at the cross of the Catholic church?

I did notice that shot, which was sly and elegant and especially impressive for being slid into that bravura long take. Interestingly, I've heard other critics praising the movie for allowing Elio and Oliver to exist in a space that is relatively tolerant, even if they must hide their relationship and speak in code. Basically these critics expressed relief that the movie didn't become mostly about forces they had to fight against. For me, that's all somewhat removed from the comments I made about hedonism, which I didn't relate to sexual orientation.

AliceGuyBlache

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Re: #660: The Last Jedi / Call Me By Your Name
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2017, 05:50:44 PM »
I was a little disappointed by the review of CALL ME BY YOUR NAME, specifically this discussion over the morality of hedonism. I feel it misses the forest for the trees a little bit. It seems as both of you fail to acknowledge that this is set in the 1980s Italy where homosexuality, despite being a legal activity, was still heavily looked down upon. Did you both miss that long take where Elio makes his intentions known with Oliver that then tilts up to look at the cross of the Catholic church?

I did notice that shot, which was sly and elegant and especially impressive for being slid into that bravura long take. Interestingly, I've heard other critics praising the movie for allowing Elio and Oliver to exist in a space that is relatively tolerant, even if they must hide their relationship and speak in code. Basically these critics expressed relief that the movie didn't become mostly about forces they had to fight against. For me, that's all somewhat removed from the comments I made about hedonism, which I didn't relate to sexual orientation.

Yeah, I guess I just don't understand your argument then. The whole speech given by the father at the end is explicitly about Elio's relationship with Oliver, not only does he accept Oliver's homosexuality, but he makes it a point to love someone as much as you can and not be scared of that love. I don't think there's anything explicit about hedonism there, to me, it's more or less a plea to his son to allow himself to feel this loss of love. There's so much fear in this movie - fear from Elio's side. As David Ehrlich points out in his review, the "Is it better to speak or die?" reading given by the mom earlier is the thesis of the movie. Elio spoke and his father is reassuring him that speaking was the right thing to do and that it's okay to have loved and lost than not to have loved at all.

Josh

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Re: #660: The Last Jedi / Call Me By Your Name
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2017, 05:55:01 PM »
I was a little disappointed by the review of CALL ME BY YOUR NAME, specifically this discussion over the morality of hedonism. I feel it misses the forest for the trees a little bit. It seems as both of you fail to acknowledge that this is set in the 1980s Italy where homosexuality, despite being a legal activity, was still heavily looked down upon. Did you both miss that long take where Elio makes his intentions known with Oliver that then tilts up to look at the cross of the Catholic church?

I did notice that shot, which was sly and elegant and especially impressive for being slid into that bravura long take. Interestingly, I've heard other critics praising the movie for allowing Elio and Oliver to exist in a space that is relatively tolerant, even if they must hide their relationship and speak in code. Basically these critics expressed relief that the movie didn't become mostly about forces they had to fight against. For me, that's all somewhat removed from the comments I made about hedonism, which I didn't relate to sexual orientation.

Yeah, I guess I just don't understand your argument then. The whole speech given by the father at the end is explicitly about Elio's relationship with Oliver, not only does he accept Oliver's homosexuality, but he makes it a point to love someone as much as you can and not be scared of that love.

That's certainly a part of what he's saying, but he also tells his son in that monologue to pursue what pleasures he can before he gets old and (paraphrasing) "no one wants to look at you anymore." That's hedonism, verging on nihilism, and is all about self-centered desire rather than relational love.

AliceGuyBlache

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Re: #660: The Last Jedi / Call Me By Your Name
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2017, 06:14:41 PM »
I was a little disappointed by the review of CALL ME BY YOUR NAME, specifically this discussion over the morality of hedonism. I feel it misses the forest for the trees a little bit. It seems as both of you fail to acknowledge that this is set in the 1980s Italy where homosexuality, despite being a legal activity, was still heavily looked down upon. Did you both miss that long take where Elio makes his intentions known with Oliver that then tilts up to look at the cross of the Catholic church?

I did notice that shot, which was sly and elegant and especially impressive for being slid into that bravura long take. Interestingly, I've heard other critics praising the movie for allowing Elio and Oliver to exist in a space that is relatively tolerant, even if they must hide their relationship and speak in code. Basically these critics expressed relief that the movie didn't become mostly about forces they had to fight against. For me, that's all somewhat removed from the comments I made about hedonism, which I didn't relate to sexual orientation.

Yeah, I guess I just don't understand your argument then. The whole speech given by the father at the end is explicitly about Elio's relationship with Oliver, not only does he accept Oliver's homosexuality, but he makes it a point to love someone as much as you can and not be scared of that love.

That's certainly a part of what he's saying, but he also tells his son in that monologue to pursue what pleasures he can before he gets old and (paraphrasing) "no one wants to look at you anymore." That's hedonism, verging on nihilism, and is all about self-centered desire rather than relational love.

Trying to find the script because I dislike talking over paraphrases, but I remember that line more like him saying that you only have so much time to chase the things you truly love before your heart is all used up. His father deeply regrets that he didn't chase either the things or the people he truly loved because he feels that age slowly deters you away from that passion to do so.

The text from the book is the closest thing we have right now:

“In my place, most parents would hope the whole thing goes away, or pray that their sons land on their feet soon enough," said Mr. Perlman, "But I am not such a parent. In your place, if there is pain, nurse it, and if there is a flame, don’t snuff it out, don’t be brutal with it. Withdrawal can be a terrible thing when it keeps us awake at night, and watching others forget us sooner than we’d want to be forgotten is no better. We rip out so much of ourselves to be cured of things faster than we should that we go bankrupt by the age of 30 and have less to offer each time we start with someone new. But to feel nothing so as not to feel anything—what a waste!”

pixote

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Re: #660: The Last Jedi / Call Me By Your Name
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2017, 06:35:30 PM »
Wow, spoilers.

pixote
I think I'd love how awkward it'd be, or how awkward it should be.

Adam

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Re: #660: The Last Jedi / Call Me By Your Name
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2017, 07:44:49 PM »
*Spoilers*

Had this same conversation with Josh in the parking lot and am with you pixote completely. There's a lot going on in that monologue but suggesting he's telling his son to always and forever embrace pleasure, regardless of the pain it may cause you or others, as opposed to trying to assure him the experience and pain was worth it because to live otherwise is to close yourself off from the world, is a big stretch for me. We only have limited time. We certainly only have limited time for these types of experiences. (Oliver has already started down the path of marriage and "adulthood" by the end.) Don't regret it; be glad you had it. That text from the book is only slightly different from what's in the movie and there's not even a mention of pleasure - it's about being the fullest version of yourself for "someone new," not your next fling.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 07:53:53 PM by Adam »
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DarkeningHumour

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Re: #660: The Last Jedi / Call Me By Your Name
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2017, 09:36:47 AM »
Isn't Revenge darker than Empire? There's a whole lot of death in that movie.
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