love

Poll

Which is the greater epic film?

Spartacus
2 (18.2%)
Patton
6 (54.5%)
Haven't seen both
3 (27.3%)

Total Members Voted: 11

Author Topic: Spartacus v. Patton  (Read 1519 times)

oldkid

  • Objectively Awesome
  • ******
  • Posts: 19044
  • Hi there! Feed me worlds!
Spartacus v. Patton
« on: October 23, 2018, 06:03:05 PM »
Yesterday I had a day off and I was ambitious.  Both Spartacus and Patton was sitting before me, needing to be watched, so I watched both of them.  (Well, I finished the final hour of Patton this morning).

Both are biographies of famous generals.  Both have powerful war scenes.  Both are about three hours.  And both are crazy ambitious and cinematic.

Spartacus is among the finest of the sword-and-sandal Roman epics.  Kirk Douglas has that chiseled-heroic look, but he can actually act (as opposed to some other heroic leads of this genre).  I quickly forgot that this was a Kubrick film and was comparing it to The Robe, Gladiator and Ben-Hur. While it doesn't have the thrilling action as Ben-Hur, it holds together better and deals with more complex, thorny ethical issues.  How do we respond when a whole society is built on immorality?  If the only opportunity for freedom is criminal activity, should we choose that?  How do we respond when confronted with unwanted, but very forward, sexual advances?  Of course, this is just history, nothing we need to worry about today.

Spartacus is also cinematic.  We are all familiar with the great, but too short, "I am Spartacus" scene.  But there is the rolling balls of fire, the rebellion at the gladiator compound, the contrast between two kinds of training.  It is stunning.  But only sometimes.  There is also politics and long periods of talking that didn't always capture my attention.  I know epics were a big thing when this film was made, but I feel that this film would be so much better if an hour were cut from it.  Still great, but it drags.

As opposed to Patton. There is barely a moment is which every ounce of cinematic juice that isn't distilled and pushed into every moment.  Every scene has a powerful, memorable image that one cannot turn away from.  The opening scene is so very well known that it would seem dull.  Not at all.  It is the perfect introduction to a man who tried to make himself as big as possible, and a film that tried to be as big as he saw himself.

I love these scripts that only keep the big scenes and we have to fill in the gaps ourselves.  They move so quickly and demand that we pay attention or lose track. The supporting cast is marvelous and solid, but this is George C. Scott's film and his charisma works perfect.  He can be the most charismatic jerk, and his manner and face almost shout the need for fame and power.  Everything about Patton is over-the-top, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Still, there is strong discomfort here.  This film wants me to appreciate a man who is the military equivalent of Trump.  His demand that others pay for his aching need, the casual speech that he blows off, the disregard for any code of ethic except his own, which he makes up on the fly.  I am glad Karl Malden is there to both appreciate the man, but also insist upon limits that Patton cannot give himself. If it weren't for his voice, I don't know that I could bare the film.  But with him, not only do I bare it, but I glory in the foolishness and destruction.  I know that there were real people, real lives that were harmed in this real-life drama, but I can rest my conscience in the wonderfully gruff voice of Karl Malden.

Although the ethical considerations will draw me back to Spartacus, my vote will go to the stunning Patton.
"It's not art unless it has the potential to be a disaster." Bansky

Smoke

  • Junior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 61
    • band website
Re: Spartacus v. Patton
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2018, 09:28:31 PM »
I only saw Spartacus once, and I enjoyed it, though as you say it's a bit long and Kubrick certainly went on to better things. Have seen Patton a number of times, starting on television at about 10 years old and most recently within the last year (age 48) when I showed it to my own son. Loved it every time. Without the moral ambiguities it might be another Hollywood hero-worshipping epic, as difficult as they are I can't imagine the film without them.

Teproc

  • Elite Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3529
Re: Spartacus v. Patton
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2018, 01:50:42 AM »
I like both without loving either, but I don't remember Patton as asking you to like or admire its central character really. Didn't feel didactiv at all to me, as Patton and Montgomery both come off as "nothing but a bunch of boys" as Claire Foy might say.
Legend: All-Time Favorite | Great  |  Very Good  |  Good  |  Poor  |  Bad

Letterbox'd

oldkid

  • Objectively Awesome
  • ******
  • Posts: 19044
  • Hi there! Feed me worlds!
Re: Spartacus v. Patton
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2018, 07:25:00 PM »
I think Patton is supposed to be a redeemed bad boy.  He's a jerk and a narrow minded bigot, but he's charming and he did the necessary dirty work in the last year of WWII.  That's how I read it.
"It's not art unless it has the potential to be a disaster." Bansky

Antares

  • Godfather
  • *****
  • Posts: 5013
Re: Spartacus v. Patton
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2018, 02:06:56 PM »
a narrow minded bigot

It's been a while since I've watched it, but I've watched it enough to know it well, where does he show bigotry?
Masterpiece (100-91) | Classic (90-80) | Entertaining (79-69) | Mediocre (68-58) | Cinemuck (57-21) | Crap (20-0)

oldkid

  • Objectively Awesome
  • ******
  • Posts: 19044
  • Hi there! Feed me worlds!
Re: Spartacus v. Patton
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2018, 07:42:37 PM »
Bigotry against the mentally ill or those with PTSD.  Although it was already well documented, he is constantly belittling, abusing them.  Bigotry against anyone considered an "enemy" of the US.
"It's not art unless it has the potential to be a disaster." Bansky

Antares

  • Godfather
  • *****
  • Posts: 5013
Re: Spartacus v. Patton
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2018, 06:18:44 AM »
Bigotry against the mentally ill or those with PTSD.  Although it was already well documented, he is constantly belittling, abusing them.  Bigotry against anyone considered an "enemy" of the US.

I never saw that as bigotry. Throughout the film, the point is re-iterated that he's an anachronism. A 14th century warrior, living in the 20th century. In his mind, PTSD is cowardice and when you look back throughout the history of man, and military history, it was a view shared by all military leaders. Just 80 years earlier, that soldier would have been branded with a hot iron on his forehead, if he would have been in the Union army during the Civil War. https://taskandpurpose.com/10-brutal-punishments-used-legal-military/
Masterpiece (100-91) | Classic (90-80) | Entertaining (79-69) | Mediocre (68-58) | Cinemuck (57-21) | Crap (20-0)

jdc

  • Godfather
  • *****
  • Posts: 7799
  • Accept the mystery
Re: Spartacus v. Patton
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2018, 07:50:43 PM »

Spartacus is among the finest of the sword-and-sandal Roman epics.  Kirk Douglas has that chiseled-heroic look, but he can actually act (as opposed to some other heroic leads of this genre).  I quickly forgot that this was a Kubrick film and was comparing it to The Robe, Gladiator and Ben-Hur.

I really got into Kubrick back in high school in the 80's and watched everything I could find at the local video store, some multiple times. But when it came to Spartacus, something seemed off and didn't seem like the Kubrick I knew and loved. Then later when I read a few books about him, then I realized why, it really is more a Douglas film with Kubrick on hire to replace the original director.

I think this and Fear and Desire are the only of his films that I have watched just once but I should rewatch this since it has been 30 years. But won't ever watch Fear and Desire again.
"Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."  Homer S.
“The direct use of physical force is so poor a solution to the problem of limited resources that it is commonly employed only by small children and great nations” - David Friedman

 

love