Author Topic: Avengers: Endgame  (Read 553 times)

FLYmeatwad

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Re: Avengers: Endgame
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2019, 09:44:39 PM »
Figure it's to just be a sweeping thing, especially if it drains one so much just making a blanket wish. But who knows.

There really isn't a traditional post-credits thing, and I imagine it can be nothing, I did like how it subverted that. The mid-credits thing is just pictures of the actors's signatures under images of their characters. At the very end though you hear some metal banging. Sounded like a hammer to me, but I had read people saying it was similar to the sounds of RDJ making the Iron Man suit in the first film. Which, of course, could also just be a throw back to how everything started, and not have any real implications.

oldkid

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Re: Avengers: Endgame
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2019, 10:04:02 PM »
I think Endgame was not a movie, but the final episode of a series.  For that, it works remarkably well.  It is MASH's Goodbye, Farewell and Amen, providing a layer of character buildiling, but also giving every major character an adieu.  It is the direct continuation of Infinity War, but it is the capstone of the whole 22 film experiment.  To miss a piece of the whole set, is to miss the depth of this movie, because there are references to almost every one of the films.  In this film, you can see the project as a whole, and this is it's fitting conclusion.  But it cannot stand on it's own.

But like the MASH finale, it is touching, it has depth, it has a sad humor.  It anticipates our grief and so causes it, even as we have moments of bittersweet joy.

But why time travel?  Does it have to be time travel?  I am so tired of this trope because it is so easy to have lazy writing and contradictions.  They chose to be right with the characters, but the time travel itself was inconsistent.  Sure, all the stones were put back... but there are multiple timelines.  How does the scientfic magic put Cap or anyone else in the correct timeline to put the stones back to get that timeline on track?  When Cap went back to have his happy ending, did he create another alternative timeline?  If so, how did he get back to Sam and Bucky's timeline?  Did Cap live through all of the stuff he could have prevented (Hydra's infiltration of SHEILD, for example) and just sit on his hands through it all because it'll get handled in the end.  Time travel only works by following some very strict rules and I don't know that they completely followed their rules.

That, and the death of Black Widow, are my only real complaints about the film. Everything else is wonderful.  I love the fact that they are all allowed to experience the trauma of the events, and that each of their PTSD looked different.  I loved pretty much everybody's end, especially Stark's and Thor's.  I loved that Paltrow got her moment in the end, although she'd been forgotten outside of Iron Man films.  I honestly think that they couldn't have done a better final episode.  I doubt they can top this, although I'll be happy to see them try.

Expectations as to who would die?  I knew about Cap and Stark.  Wouldn't have been surprised if Thor went.  Between Black Widow and Hawkeye, I thought Hawkeye would go.  But I guess they couldn't because he's a family man.  Black Widow got cheated, I think.

I loved the length, I thought the big battle was kinda cool, but mostly fan service, and I think Thanos was really well done, when you look at his character as a whole.  I really, really hope that Gomorrah will have a chance to get some healing in the next Guardians movie.

And Tom Holland is the best and I just can't wait for the next Spidey movie.  "That's nice."
"It's not art unless it has the potential to be a disaster." Bansky

1SO

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Re: Avengers: Endgame
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2019, 01:44:46 AM »
Anyway, I also thought I had read Black Widow was getting a stand-alone, so now sure how that goes now. I suppose it's prior to this point in the timeline because magic. I get that they had to go with Black Widow because Hawkeye has family to reunite with, but on the other hand Hawkeye is the worst and should have died.
When they announced the movie they said it would be about her pre-Stark adventures with Hawkeye.


Anyway, I really liked this. It is in that top tier of the MCU with Black Panther, Captain Marvel and Ant Man. It also accomplishes the feat of making me like Infinity War more.
Hard to believe you would make such a turnaround because you HATED Infinity War.


*If the stones can as easily just dust Thanos' crew or a random 50% of all life in the universe, why do a random 50% of life on the universe? Why kill half of endangered animals? If overpopulation is an issue, why not be selective about who you reduce? Why not dust white supremacists, bank executives or people who walk slow in front of you?
Thanos answers this in Infinity War when talking to Doctor Strange. He didn't want to set himself up as judge of who should live and die, but simply reduce the numbers by half with no prejudice or passion. That said, the amount of death suggests he overshot the mark by about an additional 20-30%.
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1SO

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Re: Avengers: Endgame
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2019, 01:53:33 AM »
I think Endgame was not a movie, but the final episode of a series.
My point of comparison is Deathly Hallows pt. 2 but everything else your wrote fits the same.

I think they chose time travel so they can play around with iconic moments in the 22-film story. That said, it ends up creating a flurry of problems like the ones you mentioned.

I loved pretty much everybody's end, especially Stark's and Thor's. 
What about Thor felt like an end? He's teamed up with the Guardians and left the door wide open for further adventures, which I read are in development.

Black Widow got cheated, I think.
Agree. The scene itself doesn't work, and it cheapens the nice PB&J scene between her and Steve Rogers. She doesn't get to find peace.

And Tom Holland is the best and I just can't wait for the next Spidey movie.  "That's nice."
You never knew there was a right way to play Peter Parker until he came along. I worry that he will have difficulty shedding the role, like how Daniel Radcliffe is so closely identified with Harry Potter.
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Beavermoose

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Re: Avengers: Endgame
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2019, 02:06:49 AM »
My favorite part was the little anti-capitalist quote of when Howard Stark tells his son that he has regrets about how he got rich by only caring about himself.
Also drunk Thor yelling at Fortnite kids and The Hulk doing an awkward dab.

oldkid

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Re: Avengers: Endgame
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2019, 04:10:55 PM »
I think Endgame was not a movie, but the final episode of a series.
My point of comparison is Deathly Hallows pt. 2 but everything else your wrote fits the same.

I think they chose time travel so they can play around with iconic moments in the 22-film story. That said, it ends up creating a flurry of problems like the ones you mentioned.

I loved pretty much everybody's end, especially Stark's and Thor's. 
What about Thor felt like an end? He's teamed up with the Guardians and left the door wide open for further adventures, which I read are in development.

Black Widow got cheated, I think.
Agree. The scene itself doesn't work, and it cheapens the nice PB&J scene between her and Steve Rogers. She doesn't get to find peace.

And Tom Holland is the best and I just can't wait for the next Spidey movie.  "That's nice."
You never knew there was a right way to play Peter Parker until he came along. I worry that he will have difficulty shedding the role, like how Daniel Radcliffe is so closely identified with Harry Potter.

I have many of the same issues about calling  Deathly Hallows 2 a movie as well.   With both of these films, though, everyone who saw a portion of the previous films must see the end.  Wow, what moneymakers.

My “Why time travel” wasn’t a real question, but more along a whine.  I’m used to the sloppy storytelling in Marvel films, but  any time a time travel story pops up it tells me exactly how sloppy it will be (with some rare exceptions, e.g. 12 Monkeys).  Sure, it was fun to revisit scenes from past movies and to get otherwise impossible scenes.  But as far as stakes go, we all know it will all work out as soon as they say “time machine”

Thor’s story was an end because he is putting behind Asgard and that whole sequence of stories.  He’s starting anew.  Sure, we’ll see him again, but it won’t be the same, which is great and sad.

Tom Holland may not ever get a chance to really be anyone else.  But he will give us a true, memorable Spider-man character.  Just like Harry Potter.  Spider-Man’s true character remained in the realm of  comic books until Holland showed us how it’s done.
"It's not art unless it has the potential to be a disaster." Bansky

Bondo

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Re: Avengers: Endgame
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2019, 07:18:11 PM »
Thanos answers this in Infinity War when talking to Doctor Strange. He didn't want to set himself up as judge of who should live and die, but simply reduce the numbers by half with no prejudice or passion. That said, the amount of death suggests he overshot the mark by about an additional 20-30%.

If you accept his premise of overpopulation, this seems like one of those Kantian stances like somehow if you don't choose you have no responsibility. Like letting the train run over five people because at least you didn't flip the switch to make it run over only one. Never Thanos, Never Biden, Never Kant!

Dave the Necrobumper

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Re: Avengers: Endgame
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2019, 06:09:16 AM »
Thanos is not deigning he has responsibility, at no time did he suggest he did not consider himself responsible. This is just simply not wanting to be judge, because to be judge would require setting out a standard of what is acceptable and what is not and as soon as you set such a standard there are going to be edge cases that will be very difficult to decide.
How do you determine if a dog or a cat or a housefly meets the standard.
At what level of consciousness do you require to have the standard applied?
Does a person with an IQ of 50 have the same standard applied?
Do Klingon's have the same standard applied as humans?
Do you use a conservative religious standard or a liberal progressive one?

Red Dwarf (a British TV show) had an episode where they came across a judgement ship and it determined only a person's own morals could decide if you were guilty and if so how guilty. So if you thought yourself as having done bad things you would be punished, but another person who had done exactly the same things would not be if they did not think them bad.

I will use an image rule as an example of the problems with setting a standard. Base rule: "no nude images of children". Seems quite reasonable until you ask questions about the rule. What is nude? Topless, bottomless, front only, back only. Is any exposed skin acceptable? How much? Is a photo of a nude child suffering from napalm burns acceptable, is it acceptable if it is not the iconic one from the Vietnam war, and on and on and on. 7 volumes later you may have an acceptable set of rules to determine if the photo is acceptable under the "no nude images of children" rule, then you move onto the next rule.

I completely understand why he went with the I am not the judge. His goal was to depopulate the universe, so the various populations had a better chance to survive, judging who lives and who dies does little to nothing to achieve that goal.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2019, 08:44:28 PM »
Watched it again. Liked it more or less the same. Not as dense as Infinity War so there was little new to think about except that the Soul Stone heist doesn't work at all. It's not in the film and I can't imagine how the conversation over who goes after it would've gone when dividing up teams. Assuming they're unsure that death is necessary in retrieving it, I would like to know how the job feel to Clint and Natasha.

2 other sticking points I haven't read in any other Spoiler talk...

1. At the beginning, Nebula says she knows where Thanos is because he talked about "The Farm". Next scene, they found Thanos used the stone's again (two days ago, why not "a couple of hours ago"?) and track the stone's energy to find his location. So, did Nebula help narrow the search or was her talk about the farm unnecessary since it was his using the stones that gave away his location?

2. How does 2014 Nebula, with no Pym Particles, bring Thanos through the quantum realm for the finale? And not just Thanos, but his ship and his massive crew of warships and soldiers.
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Bondo

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Re: Avengers: Endgame
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2019, 09:36:27 PM »
Nebula has Pym Particles for her return trip that they acquire by making her head go all funny and capturing her. Apparently that was enough for the whole lot.