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Author Topic: Top 100 Club: etdoesgood  (Read 18769 times)

smirnoff

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Re: Top 100 Club: etdoesgood
« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2021, 05:41:50 AM »
Offside

I haven't watched a lot of Iranian cinema. A Separation, The Salesman, Persepolis... that's about all I can think of. Even if they aren't about oppression directly, they all exist in an oppressive environment. As a viewer I find watching characters stuck in that environment very frustrating. Is this Gilead? Am I watching a Handmaid's tale? No, it's worse than that since there's no prospect of revolution... at least not in the timeframe of the story being told.

Here the goal is simply to see a soccer game in person, as a woman (dressed as a man). Perhaps the only hopeful thing in the film is that the agents of oppression that we meet don't themselves seem especially against the act of women attending a game in person... they just enforce the rule. Actually that's extending them a bit too much credit. Given the power to set the rules I don't get the impression any of them would change the status quo. Their annoyance at having to enforce this particular rule has little to do with the rule itself and everything to do with not wanting to be working. It's a bunch of young men begrudgingly fulfilling an obligation of military service. They'd all rather be somewhere else.

I don't get the impression that this episode in their lives will shift their beliefs towards something more progressive. If anything probably the opposite. People often grow to resent and hate those who make their work more difficult, not the system which precipitated the conflict. The next person they encounter pays for their frustration, and so on in a exponential sort of way. In time they come to feel the rule IS justified because of their experiences, meanwhile their increasingly zealous enforcement increases their rank to the point they are in a position of power to make or change rules, at which point they choose to doom the next generation of young men to repeat the process they just experienced.

I have a question for you et, but I don't quite know how to ask it. It's about the film's ambitions. Do you find them satisfying personally, or do you appreciate them relative to the audience the film is intended for? I find I'm struggling with the film. I find it bleak and sad and hopeless, and I'm not really sure if there's any takeaway for me. What do you take away from it?

Bondo

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Re: Top 100 Club: etdoesgood
« Reply #101 on: March 23, 2021, 08:35:19 AM »
What I WOULD like to see is a Bondo Top 100 albums of all-time, or Top Twenty musical artists, or Top 250 songs or something.

Not ranked, but when I went through my iTunes library over the past year and rated everything I ended up with 260 5-star songs so I was able to quickly output that to Google Sheets. There are undoubtedly many 5-star songs I don't own but this should give a certain perspective. One thing I will say is I connect to music first as a vocalist and Smith's music isn't the most dynamic or challenging from that standpoint. Anyway, I'll put together an artist or album ranking or something for the music subforum soon.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 09:48:19 AM by Bondo »

Eric/E.T.

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Re: Top 100 Club: etdoesgood
« Reply #102 on: March 23, 2021, 10:51:22 PM »
What I WOULD like to see is a Bondo Top 100 albums of all-time, or Top Twenty musical artists, or Top 250 songs or something.

Not ranked, but when I went through my iTunes library over the past year and rated everything I ended up with 260 5-star songs so I was able to quickly output that to Google Sheets. There are undoubtedly many 5-star songs I don't own but this should give a certain perspective. One thing I will say is I connect to music first as a vocalist and Smith's music isn't the most dynamic or challenging from that standpoint. Anyway, I'll put together an artist or album ranking or something for the music subforum soon.

Hmm, I think Smith's vocals are excellent. He's not a classically trained vocalist, more of a instrumentalist, song-writer, and lyricist, but the three-track layered vocals that are part of his signature create a very warm, ambient feel to go with his introspective lyricism. Part of it is certainly production, part of it is in the intonation and the overall expressive quality.

I looked through your list. Certainly quite a difference between us, but some overlap (Regina Spektor (Samson is my favorite song of hers!), Cat Stevens, for instance). It's an interesting list, though, a good read in and of itself. I will say this, though: If you're going to hold Elliott Smith to a high standard on vocals, well, a lot of the artist on your list don't have the greatest singing abilities, either, they rely a lot on production (Dua Lipa, who I also like, comes to mind, as well as Miley Cyrus; but I'm also suspicious of anyone that's been on American Idol). Not to war over tastes, just something I thought was relevant because of your comment on Smith.

You make me want to make more music lists now!
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Eric/E.T.

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Re: Top 100 Club: etdoesgood
« Reply #103 on: March 23, 2021, 10:58:46 PM »
I've written more than you, but I am excited that you watched these two movies. I think you might get a great deal out of 3 Faces, as I think it fits the high concept Sam talks about with Offside, although it also has strong meta elements and docudrama feel of This Is Not a Film. I very much understand your reaction to that film, even if I don't necessarily share it, but I think you might find that it actually goes places with 3 Faces. Sometimes the camera points at Panahi, but it's when it points beyond him that the magic happens.
I wasn’t expecting such a dense puzzle of a film, and I found myself more frustrated by it than I was delighting in all the layers. Probably the effect of being largely a non-fan. It starts with that high-concept, but gets lost in the meta/docudrama. I see how this can be the most dazzling blend of Panahi telling a story without making a movie, but for me he pulled anchor early on and let the current take him whichever way. Really liked the beginning and ending.

Was worth a shot, at least it wasn't a total bust! I have picked apart a lot of the layers here, writing about this film a lot in my journal when I first saw it. This is three generations of women movie-makers/stars/creatives (the "short film" in the beginning being a nice way to start with a film within a film, which should tip viewers off right away that this is complicated) being captured by a man in what is to me the best way he could do it. The actual reclining of the seat so the camera can see the old woman's house and catch the shadows of them dancing is to me quite a magical shot while also being overtly feminist on the part of its male creator. Like, "I have the camera, yes, and I'm being oppressed by this tyrannical government, but you know what, let's talk about you, because you have felt this and been in this situation WAY longer than I have." It's the shot that clinched the film for me. And then the ending just did it again 100 times over.

Crazier talk? This is the first Panahi that I saw. I then lined all the rest of them up and went to work. I'm telling you, the last 4 years have been a cinematic awakening!
A witty saying proves nothing. - Voltaire

1SO

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Re: Top 100 Club: etdoesgood
« Reply #104 on: March 23, 2021, 11:13:30 PM »
Crazier talk? This is the first Panahi that I saw. I then lined all the rest of them up and went to work. I'm telling you, the last 4 years have been a cinematic awakening!
That is crazy. You always look for the right entry into someone's filmography, and this is from the deep end. I think The Mirror is where most people start.

Eric/E.T.

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Re: Top 100 Club: etdoesgood
« Reply #105 on: March 23, 2021, 11:28:20 PM »
Offside

I haven't watched a lot of Iranian cinema. A Separation, The Salesman, Persepolis... that's about all I can think of. Even if they aren't about oppression directly, they all exist in an oppressive environment. As a viewer I find watching characters stuck in that environment very frustrating. Is this Gilead? Am I watching a Handmaid's tale? No, it's worse than that since there's no prospect of revolution... at least not in the timeframe of the story being told.

Here the goal is simply to see a soccer game in person, as a woman (dressed as a man). Perhaps the only hopeful thing in the film is that the agents of oppression that we meet don't themselves seem especially against the act of women attending a game in person... they just enforce the rule. Actually that's extending them a bit too much credit. Given the power to set the rules I don't get the impression any of them would change the status quo. Their annoyance at having to enforce this particular rule has little to do with the rule itself and everything to do with not wanting to be working. It's a bunch of young men begrudgingly fulfilling an obligation of military service. They'd all rather be somewhere else.

I don't get the impression that this episode in their lives will shift their beliefs towards something more progressive. If anything probably the opposite. People often grow to resent and hate those who make their work more difficult, not the system which precipitated the conflict. The next person they encounter pays for their frustration, and so on in a exponential sort of way. In time they come to feel the rule IS justified because of their experiences, meanwhile their increasingly zealous enforcement increases their rank to the point they are in a position of power to make or change rules, at which point they choose to doom the next generation of young men to repeat the process they just experienced.

I have a question for you et, but I don't quite know how to ask it. It's about the film's ambitions. Do you find them satisfying personally, or do you appreciate them relative to the audience the film is intended for? I find I'm struggling with the film. I find it bleak and sad and hopeless, and I'm not really sure if there's any takeaway for me. What do you take away from it?

I like your observations and sort of where this film led you to think, just in general. I think that's how "the system" works, it gets us to resent people that are very much in a similar station in life, and thus not think about the bigger issues that keep the people at the top in power. Also, there's the power of religious indoctrination at work here, too. I think through the body language and actions of the younger soldiers here, they seem, like you say, more blase about the fact that these women tried to get in vs. them just being a pain in their asses, BUT they (at least through the education system and the words of the people in power, if not through their own families) have also been taught the inferiority of women since they were born.

To your question: I find the ambitions very satisfying personally, on an artistic level as well as a sociopolitical level (the perfect blend for me in many instances). I like my Italian neorealist-influenced dramas to seem as "street" level (kind of how I think about a docudrama) as possible, the less of a wall between you and the protagonists (and antagonists) the better. At the same time, you could analyze this frame-by-frame (I haven't done exactly that, but did watch it once just to admire the frames), and there's plenty of interesting information there, too. But this sounds more like appreciation, and basically C-minus appreciation. Nevertheless, those techniques allow me to get closer to the people in the film (mostly about the people themselves, but obviously the context of the situation they're in matters), and the satisfying thing about this film is in the people, and partially the audacity of what Panahi was attempting (and that he pulled it off with so many days of filming truly coming off as a single day in the film). These women are resisting oppression while wearing the colors of their country, and Panahi's capturing it in a way I feel close to the struggle. I empathize, even if these things to happen so far away. I become emotionally invested in their struggle, to the point that their attempts to escape, or their overall treatment, matters to me. It's also fun to see how the male soldiers are when they want to let their guards down, and you start to see the cracks at the foundation of the Islamic Republic. The people just can't stop being who they are. Then the ending really put it over the top for me. Getting off the bus with the firecrackers to mingle with their brothers and sisters of Iran after an amazing win to qualify for the World Cup is such a poignant final shot to me. It's humanity resisting and overcoming the oppression of the ruling class, if at least for a few moments, maybe one party. I don't see it as sad, bleak, or hopeless at all. Panahi himself making this film just shows how possible resistance and sticking your neck out there for good is (make sure you have friends in a few free countries before you do it, though.) At the most personal level, I've always been inspired by people fighting back against oppression in whatever ways they can. I have only dealt with it minorly in real life (#redfored, teacher's strike!), because I'm a white dude who grew up in a middle class home in suburban Ann Arbor and suburban Cleveland, but it seems to me that resistance is possibly the the time that people can be their best selves (save utopia, which I have design for, as well). Even as the women are detained outside of the stands, they still try to find ways to get the score from the guards, get a little play-by-play here and there. They joke, they mess around. The van ride to the station (where they never went) was kind of a joke in and of itself, lots of social norms broken on this magical night. The power and magic of camaraderie due to a "meaningless" sports event. Anyway, it's close to bed, and I think I'm going to let this mass of words stand for my answer, or at least my impressions.

Maybe a shorter version is, this film isn't about oppression, but about resisting oppression however one may do it. I dig that biiiiiig time.
A witty saying proves nothing. - Voltaire

Eric/E.T.

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Re: Top 100 Club: etdoesgood
« Reply #106 on: March 23, 2021, 11:34:36 PM »
Crazier talk? This is the first Panahi that I saw. I then lined all the rest of them up and went to work. I'm telling you, the last 4 years have been a cinematic awakening!
That is crazy. You always look for the right entry into someone's filmography, and this is from the deep end. I think The Mirror is where most people start.

You know, I just didn't know anything about the guy or the film. I read up on Panahi a little bit before seeing it, but this was at the dawn on my "Live at the theater on weekends" time of life that was ripped from me by the pandemic.

Had I seen The Mirror first, I'd certainly have been onboard. The one I think would've made it tougher for me might be This Is Not a Film (the one I saw LAST, just in our Docember). It doesn't capture the breadth of his storytelling, it's more a frank, "This is the shit I'm in in Iran" type of movie, and I think he builds on that with subsequent films like Closed Curtain and Taxi, which I believe he mastered with 3 Faces. I also think some of he's pre-ban films are his best: The Mirror, The Circle, and Offside are all triumphs to me. This is Not a Film is more about what it's about/exposing. The subsequent achievements he had go past that and tried to work it conceptually into what he was making.
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smirnoff

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Re: Top 100 Club: etdoesgood
« Reply #107 on: March 24, 2021, 06:20:53 AM »
Offside

I have a question for you et, but I don't quite know how to ask it. It's about the film's ambitions. Do you find them satisfying personally, or do you appreciate them relative to the audience the film is intended for? I find I'm struggling with the film. I find it bleak and sad and hopeless, and I'm not really sure if there's any takeaway for me. What do you take away from it?

To your question: I find the ambitions very satisfying personally, on an artistic level as well as a sociopolitical level (the perfect blend for me in many instances). I like my Italian neorealist-influenced dramas to seem as "street" level (kind of how I think about a docudrama) as possible, the less of a wall between you and the protagonists (and antagonists) the better. At the same time, you could analyze this frame-by-frame (I haven't done exactly that, but did watch it once just to admire the frames), and there's plenty of interesting information there, too. But this sounds more like appreciation, and basically C-minus appreciation. Nevertheless, those techniques allow me to get closer to the people in the film (mostly about the people themselves, but obviously the context of the situation they're in matters), and the satisfying thing about this film is in the people, and partially the audacity of what Panahi was attempting (and that he pulled it off with so many days of filming truly coming off as a single day in the film). These women are resisting oppression while wearing the colors of their country, and Panahi's capturing it in a way I feel close to the struggle. I empathize, even if these things to happen so far away. I become emotionally invested in their struggle, to the point that their attempts to escape, or their overall treatment, matters to me. It's also fun to see how the male soldiers are when they want to let their guards down, and you start to see the cracks at the foundation of the Islamic Republic. The people just can't stop being who they are. Then the ending really put it over the top for me. Getting off the bus with the firecrackers to mingle with their brothers and sisters of Iran after an amazing win to qualify for the World Cup is such a poignant final shot to me. It's humanity resisting and overcoming the oppression of the ruling class, if at least for a few moments, maybe one party. I don't see it as sad, bleak, or hopeless at all. Panahi himself making this film just shows how possible resistance and sticking your neck out there for good is (make sure you have friends in a few free countries before you do it, though.) At the most personal level, I've always been inspired by people fighting back against oppression in whatever ways they can. I have only dealt with it minorly in real life (#redfored, teacher's strike!), because I'm a white dude who grew up in a middle class home in suburban Ann Arbor and suburban Cleveland, but it seems to me that resistance is possibly the the time that people can be their best selves (save utopia, which I have design for, as well). Even as the women are detained outside of the stands, they still try to find ways to get the score from the guards, get a little play-by-play here and there. They joke, they mess around. The van ride to the station (where they never went) was kind of a joke in and of itself, lots of social norms broken on this magical night. The power and magic of camaraderie due to a "meaningless" sports event. Anyway, it's close to bed, and I think I'm going to let this mass of words stand for my answer, or at least my impressions.

Maybe a shorter version is, this film isn't about oppression, but about resisting oppression however one may do it. I dig that biiiiiig time.

I'm curious, are there any other films with the "resisting oppression (in whatever way they can)" theme that scratch that same itch for you? I imagine there would be more documentaries that fit into that subgenre than feature films. Does a film as grand (and existing in a fictional setting) like V for Vendetta scratch that itch too or is it too... much. I get the impression that it's not the ultimate outcome that you respond to most but rather the act of resistance itself. Does resistance against a particular type of oppression appeal to you more than others? Race, gender, class, religious, sexuality. That's a weird question, haha.

Bondo

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Re: Top 100 Club: etdoesgood
« Reply #108 on: March 24, 2021, 08:56:50 AM »
a lot of the artist on your list don't have the greatest singing abilities, either, they rely a lot on production (Dua Lipa, who I also like, comes to mind, as well as Miley Cyrus; but I'm also suspicious of anyone that's been on American Idol).

This is alto erasure. I do think Miley is actually a really strong singer based on certain live performances I've seen of things like Zombie and Jolene, though I am less defensive about Dua Lipa. The thing is, production is good. I like a few Owl City songs and that is very autotuned (I mean, I can sing it non-autotuned but it's catchy stuff). So it isn't just who are the best singers. It's about which songs are the most fun to sing (and for me specifically to sing...someone like Queen loses a bit because Mercury goes so intricate it becomes less fun to sing). Something like Tegan and Sara is less about the vocals and more about lyrics...they write more specifically to my emotional register.

Eric/E.T.

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Re: Top 100 Club: etdoesgood
« Reply #109 on: March 25, 2021, 12:06:20 AM »
I'm curious, are there any other films with the "resisting oppression (in whatever way they can)" theme that scratch that same itch for you? I imagine there would be more documentaries that fit into that subgenre than feature films. Does a film as grand (and existing in a fictional setting) like V for Vendetta scratch that itch too or is it too... much. I get the impression that it's not the ultimate outcome that you respond to most but rather the act of resistance itself. Does resistance against a particular type of oppression appeal to you more than others? Race, gender, class, religious, sexuality. That's a weird question, haha.

Oh yeah, lots, with either resistance as a primary or secondary theme. Even Rushmore is about struggling against a system that purports to be meritocratic only to expel its student that displays the greatest merit (and the relative uselessness of core subjects and grades...to a point). With resistance also comes resilience in the case of Max Fisher. (Having a millionaire donor does not ultimately harm his case, but nor does it define him.) The Spirit of the Beehive is haunted by Franco, with its older central couple clearly very scarred, with love letter-writing and beekeeping their own passive forms of resistance, not to mention the mere act of growing up. Fight Club, that's a bit more of an active resistance with a dramatic act of wish-fulfillment closing it out. That might be more in the way of actual rebellion or revolution. With the regime in Iran and its oppression of artists, just about any film coming out of that country is an act of resistance, some more so (such as the work of Jafar Panahi post-20 year ban) than others (i.e. the work of Majid Majidi). I've always been a fan of the underdog in pretty much every aspect of life, and I also find my own socio-political positions as those of the underdog (but ultimately correct...who holds positions they think are wrong?), so I'm very drawn to resistance and humanity shining through the shit that's slung at it. I experience it on an everyday basis.

I think some people are more closely drawn to particular identities in storytelling, especially the ones they possess that are considered outside of the norm, so it's not an unreasonable question. With that being said, my "divergent" identities are atheism (and is it even really, nowadays?), having a moderately difficult mental health condition (Bipolar Disorder), and being a self-proclaimed (at any given time) collectivist/proponent of egalitarianism/communist/socialist/anti-capitalist (though maybe none of those totally strictly) but I'm not really that drawn to the first two in art (I actually dislike a good deal of films I see that feature a character with mental illness because the portrayals are total bullshit - best example: Silver Linings Playbook), though films with similar political ideologies do appeal to me. More than anything, I'm into films from other cultures that can show me situations or ways of being outside of my own. That's not totally reflective on my lists because soooooo many of the movies I see are American films by white, (assumingly) cisgender, male creators, because that's still who get the bulk of opportunities (though it's obviously changing a bit), but when I get a shot at acclaimed international films that find their way to a theater (or streaming service) near me, I suck them up.

Last note, because this is a worthy writing prompt, I ultimately feel like I'm an impossible situation squaring my particular ethics with the world/country/culture I'm in, so although I'm not a member of an oppressed race/ethnicity/gender/religion (not really), I still feel a bit like I resist just by working in the public sector with young people in a wonderful, however over-policed and crime-bitten neighborhood. Thus, watching other people resisting gives a feeling of comfort and camaraderie, even though the feats of the people I'm watching in movies are often a million times more amazing than anything I can imagine. And anyway, I just love watching people find meaning in the struggle.
A witty saying proves nothing. - Voltaire