Author Topic: ET v. Sight and Sound's 100 Greatest Films of All Time  (Read 50755 times)

Teproc

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Re: ET v. Sight and Sound's 100 Greatest Films of All Time
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2020, 08:17:05 AM »
I too appreciate Fassbinder's talent for composition in Ali, but I was disappointed by what the script evolves into (or maybe what it doesn't), though I agree about that first scene, it's quite striking and an excellent way to rope the viewer into the film and its peculiar mood.
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MartinTeller

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Re: ET v. Sight and Sound's 100 Greatest Films of All Time
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2020, 08:51:20 AM »
Regarding IoL (and I'll shut up after this, promise): I just think it's a little unfair to condemn a 1959 film for casting a white girl as a black girl who passes. This kind of representation policing is a very new thing, it didn't exist back then (perhaps partly because back then people had no way of researching Susan Kohner's ethnic background). Two years later we had Mickey Rooney's utterly shameful yellowface, and 11 years later we've got Dustin Hoffman starring as a Native American. Your heart is in the right place, but I feel like you're missing the forest for the trees. There are very few films addressing racial issues at all during this period. To completely dismiss the sensitive and progressive messages of IoL because it's not perfectly woke by 2020 standards is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

It's too bad All That Heaven Allows (another Sirk film!) isn't on this list so you could compare & contrast with Ali.

Teproc

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Re: ET v. Sight and Sound's 100 Greatest Films of All Time
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2020, 08:59:41 AM »
I haven't seen Imitation of Life, but what MartinTeller points out is quite relevant here: works that engage with racial issues (or other issues which we view extremely differently now) tend to be the most problematic even when they're well-intentioned when looking at them with 2010s (well, 2020s now) eyes, whereas works that don't even broach the subject don't suffer from that, which creates a bit of a paradoxical situation.
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Bondo

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Re: ET v. Sight and Sound's 100 Greatest Films of All Time
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2020, 09:37:51 AM »
I would like to note that in watching the Pioneers of African-American Cinema box set, there are a lot of passing drama there. A lot is about how people who can pass basically are betraying their people, which is something Imitation of Life hits on as well I guess. It isn't necessarily the most wholesome message. The article et linked has a link to a bell hooks piece criticizing Imitation of Life, but my (negative) view of bell hooks was kind of cemented in an English class in college where we read an essay of hers that I thought was kind of junk and did a lot of dismissing AA people who acted white.

Eric/E.T.

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Re: ET v. Sight and Sound's 100 Greatest Films of All Time
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2020, 12:04:42 PM »
My last two cents, without the intention of undermining what anyone is saying here. I appreciate the conversation.

Regarding IoL (and I'll shut up after this, promise): I just think it's a little unfair to condemn a 1959 film for casting a white girl as a black girl who passes. This kind of representation policing is a very new thing, it didn't exist back then (perhaps partly because back then people had no way of researching Susan Kohner's ethnic background). Two years later we had Mickey Rooney's utterly shameful yellowface, and 11 years later we've got Dustin Hoffman starring as a Native American. Your heart is in the right place, but I feel like you're missing the forest for the trees. There are very few films addressing racial issues at all during this period. To completely dismiss the sensitive and progressive messages of IoL because it's not perfectly woke by 2020 standards is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

It's too bad All That Heaven Allows (another Sirk film!) isn't on this list so you could compare & contrast with Ali.

You have a much greater perspective on cinema's timeline than I do with lots and lots more films seen than I have, so I appreciate you bringing up this context. Where you and I disagree are in how progressive the message actually is and its worth compared to some of (in my view) the damaging decisions made by the director. I do view the films I watch through a modern lens, which I think is appropriate when evaluating the films in the context of a poll that last came out in 2012.

And just because All That Heaven Allows isn't on the list, doesn't mean I can't add it to my watchlist! Considering my appreciation and enjoyment of Ali, and Sirk's documented influence on Fassbinder, I think it would be worthwhile, especially when I have the time to watch more Fassbinder films as well. Plus, your recommendations carry a lot of weight with me.

I haven't seen Imitation of Life, but what MartinTeller points out is quite relevant here: works that engage with racial issues (or other issues which we view extremely differently now) tend to be the most problematic even when they're well-intentioned when looking at them with 2010s (well, 2020s now) eyes, whereas works that don't even broach the subject don't suffer from that, which creates a bit of a paradoxical situation.

Someone sticking their neck out to do an issues-based melodrama is also a valid concept to consider. It requires a lot more care in handling characters and their truths than making a film lighter on this type of substance. It doesn't move me on this particular film, but it is a point well-taken. Ali, which is a good 46 years old though still made 15 years later, might actually be less well-intentioned or less obvious about its intentions, yet get the racial issues essentially right (though probably not perfectly). Interestingly, Fassbinder was influenced by Sirk.

I would like to note that in watching the Pioneers of African-American Cinema box set, there are a lot of passing drama there. A lot is about how people who can pass basically are betraying their people, which is something Imitation of Life hits on as well I guess.

That justifies Sarah Jane's landing spot a bit better. I've read back/read through your marathon, it seems like a fairly surreal, but rewarding experience. I'd have to bring a different disposition to that than the one I normally take, I think.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 12:07:33 PM by etdoesgood »
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Antares

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Re: ET v. Sight and Sound's 100 Greatest Films of All Time
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2020, 01:34:13 PM »
11 years later we've got Dustin Hoffman starring as a Native American.

Not entirely true. He played a white man who had been raised by either a Sioux or Cheyenne tribe, I can't recall which one it was. And in that film, he wasn't playing a stereotypical Indian type. In fact, the Native Americans are treated as the sane group of people, as opposed to the whites in that film.
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MartinTeller

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Re: ET v. Sight and Sound's 100 Greatest Films of All Time
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2020, 03:06:40 PM »
Ah, my mistake. I haven't seen it. Still, there are plenty of others.

Eric/E.T.

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Re: ET v. Sight and Sound's 100 Greatest Films of All Time
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2020, 11:43:18 PM »
Touki Bouki
MAMBETY, 1973
3 STARS OUT OF 5

Ever sit down to watch a film with someone and find that maybe your selection doesn't fit your audience? Today, I watched Touki Bouki for the first time, with my father, who is a great sport and just likes to watch movies; however, it was kind of awkward for me because of what Touki Bouki is. And what it is, is a strange series of scenes and images that cycle and recycle, which create this odd and surreal fantasy of two lovers, Mory (Magaye Niang) and Anta (Myriam Niang), seeking a way to get to France and away from their home of Dakar, Senegal. It's disorienting and, at times, baffling, in terms of meaning. Is it good? I'm going to ask myself three key questions, questions that David Friedman told fellow critic and journalist Ann Hornaday she should ask herself before writing a review:

1. What was the artist trying to achieve?
2. Did they achieve it?
3. Was it worth doing?

In the introduction to Touki Bouki on the Criterion Channel, Martin Scorsese talks about how Mambety was going through a difficult time when conceiving this film and wanted to "make a lot of things explode." Suffice to say, he was looking to make something that was a drastic departure from traditional cinema, even as it was being made in Africa. It's clear that he sought to make the viewer uncomfortable, while also exhibiting what seems to be a multi-generational desire in Senegal, the urge to get away and make a better life in France (see: his niece Mati Diop's Atlantics, which came out last year).

Now did he achieve this, or didn't he? This level of interpretation is easy if you're watching Long Shot, just take the humor, the politics, and how the characters develop, a distinct three-act plot, very few surprises in regards to cinematography and editing, and voila - you decide if we needed another bro-tastic comedy where the guy gets a way too smart, way too pretty gal. But with Touki Bouki, how do you even know? Here's as far as I'm willing to go until I become a Touki Bouki scholar (way off in the far future, or possibly another life):

It succeeds at the beginning and the end, through the imagery of butchering the zebu, to show a raw, anxious, angry feeling about simply being in Dakar. It somewhat succeeds between the opening and closing scenes in its dizzying sequences showing the couple try to pull of absurd schemes to get money for their Paris trip. My dad is still singing "Paris, Paris, Paris," and I think the point was to get that stuck in your head, which is this dusty old tune in French that talks about how heavenly the city is, and is perfect for the fantasies dancing around in Mory and Anta's heads. There are a lot of strange omissions of action throughout, and I'm not ready to assign them all high artistic merit. For example, Mory and Anta go to a stadium where there is are people - looks like probably wealthy people - watching men wrestle in the dirt and cheering along, so that they can rob the stadium of the money. When they creep up on the police officer guarding the money, they look at the trunks next to him to discern which is the one with the dough. And then, we see the trunk they chose on the top of a taxi, driving who knows where, and how they got it or where they're going with it not explained at all. In another, they steal some clothes, and suddenly end up in a parade waving at admirers. The post-wrestling sequences is inscrutable, but the parade sequences has a humor and lightness about it that does a good job reflecting the joy in the characters, and when it continues with the people from their village, it gets even zanier, though feeling a little silly and indulgent, even for this film.

One major issue I have with this film, is how Mory got out of his jam toward the beginning of the film, when he was roped up on their vehicle and driven through town. This occurs when he's going to find Anta at the university, and the point of the scene was likely to show the arbitrary mean-spiritedness of college revolutionaries at the time and criticize people who front as high-minded. But it's a part of the plot - yes, there is one - and feels disconnected from the rest of the story. Even if there is an answer to how this flows into other parts of the film, the transition is very poor, in a film that otherwise has its own internal rhythm and logic.

I'd say that Mambety probably achieved his aim, but I struggle with the view that the film is as accomplished as I've seen others assert, and which is obviously asserted by it being on this list.

The final question, Was it worth doing?, is probably yes for nearly every film on the Sight and Sound list. All of these are films with big dreams, and Touki Bouki probably has some of the biggest. It seeks to break a mold, to scald, to instigate trouble. It seeks to paint an honest picture of Dakar, with a tip of the cap to neo-realism in many of its shots, as it pursues its avant garde ends. And it wants to make us laugh, too. It's super funny. I probably could've laughed more, but was feeling a little of that pressure from subjecting my dad to this odd experience. Nevertheless, even he seemed to be interested in what this film was, as I started to read interpretations to him from my desk here. If anything, you will want to at least try to understand it. That's probably a good sign that it was worth doing.

I do find myself asking an uncomfortable question, though: Can the worth of any experimental film be justified using the reasoning I gave above? You can put just about anything to film, edit and stitch it together in a radical way, put it out to the masses, and if there are loaded images, ironic music, and crazy happenings, among any number of elements appreciated by others who are sick of the CINECAST!ing status quo, a person could say that you did something special, maybe even extraordinary. I think Mambety's vision is important because of what he's illustrating about his home, the difference in classes, and even contrasting it with the racist perspectives of several white European visitors. He pursued his vision wherever it took him, and he had the care to do the editing and bring in music that would support this surreal journey. Thus, I think you can discern the quality in Touki Bouki v. Another Random Experimental Film.

Last note that I couldn't fit in above: This film portrays homosexuality. It's way, way unexpected. It was made in 1973, the year my dad graduated high school, and my dad, whose gay, noted that nobody even around him in Michigan ever talked about the possibility of being gay. Touki Bouki portrays Charlie, the gay man, who beckons for Mory to join him in the shower as Mory steals his clothes and car, as just another person. Nothing he does seems to make fun of or demean gay people at all. It's another talking point definitely worth discussing in regard to this film.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 08:03:25 AM by etdoesgood »
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MartinTeller

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Re: ET v. Sight and Sound's 100 Greatest Films of All Time
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2020, 09:25:38 AM »
One of my top 250, here is my brief review. It's been a while since I've seen it, but I do seem to recall the portrayal of the gay character as somewhat demeaning. Perhaps I recall incorrectly.

Kino just announced they will be releasing Mambety's Hyenas on Blu-Ray in May. Also a very worthwhile -- albeit more "conventional" -- film.

Eric/E.T.

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Re: ET v. Sight and Sound's 100 Greatest Films of All Time
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2020, 03:00:44 PM »
One of my top 250, here is my brief review. It's been a while since I've seen it, but I do seem to recall the portrayal of the gay character as somewhat demeaning. Perhaps I recall incorrectly.

I'm usually pretty sensitive to such things, and I didn't think so. He tries to seduce Mory, but it's not in any way shown as abnormal. Mory does rob him while he beckons for Mory in the shower, so I think Mory comes out looking like the worse of the two.

Kino just announced they will be releasing Mambety's Hyenas on Blu-Ray in May. Also a very worthwhile -- albeit more "conventional" -- film.

Guy has a thing for hyenas, huh? Touki Bouki is "Journey of the Hyena". It'd be interesting to see another one of his and contrast it with Touki Bouki, because TB is certainly like nothing I've seen before, even among the few truly experimental films I've seen.
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