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Author Topic: Re: #MeToo: Sexual Harassment  (Read 3812 times)

Bondo

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Re: Re: #MeToo: Sexual Harassment
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2020, 10:21:50 PM »
So the next time Jacob Wohl comes out saying he has a woman claiming some liberal politician assaulted her I should believe her, in spite her association with a known liar?

The principal of believing women doesn’t demand asking no questions.

MartinTeller

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Re: Re: #MeToo: Sexual Harassment
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2020, 11:08:34 PM »
Believe women*

*When it's convenient

This condescending attitude got tiresome enough in the Politics thread. You don't need to bring it here too.

oldkid

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Re: Re: #MeToo: Sexual Harassment
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2020, 11:17:18 PM »
In this case, "believe women" isn't the correct response.  It is, "Who is listening to these women and reporting their statements accurately?"  I'm with Bondo.  We need some decent reporting.
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Bondo

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Re: Re: #MeToo: Sexual Harassment
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2020, 12:15:01 AM »
Just a few general points:
1. This thread is in the Movie Talk section, so arguably unless the person involved is in the film world, it is inapt. Probably we should just move the thread to non-movie talk.

2. I am in the legal world. I recognize that the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard is poorly suited to these types of crimes and that social evaluations can reasonably operate on a lower threshold such as the civil court standard of more likely than not. I do not think it inverts completely where that only if you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the allegation is incorrect do we give it less weight.

3. YouTuber ContraPoints, earlier this year, did a (very long) video on Canceling that touches on certain risks that both "believe women" and "believe minorities" hold if taken as absolutes, namely that they can be abused by bad faith actors. This happens in intraleft conflict but especially by conservatives against liberals. Jacob Wohl is a prime example of that. I'd argue that to some degree the attacks on Ilhan Omar over alleged antisemitism and the attacks on Elizabeth Warren over her understanding of her heritage were instances of "believe minorities" being used in bad faith. These are successful against those on the left specifically because they (rightly) hold the broad principle of believing disadvantaged groups and to try to question it can risk claims of hypocrisy.

4. We live in an age of informational warfare. Trump may use "fake news" to mean news he doesn't like, but there really is a lot of dubious crap floating around the internet. We know that Russia in particular engages in informational warfare. We know that The Intercept is relatively Russia friendly...see their heavy insistence that Democrats focus on Russia was red-baiting and such (even though the intel very clearly implicates Russia). The previous story about Reade went to Matt Taibbi, another journalist who was dismissive of Russian interference. So setting aside whether Reade herself has been pro-Russia, it is convenient that those breaking her story that serves the long-established Russian goal of hurting Biden in favor of Sanders and Trump appeared in two media venues that have been most protective of Russia. That Biden has a history of inappropriate physicality (heretofore stopping short of overt assault) just helps make it an easier target.

5. It is possible that Reade's account is entirely accurate. I am not dismissing that at all. I just have I think reasonable concerns before I make further conclusions. We also cannot ignore broader political contexts. Let's look at Al Franken. One thing that made it so easy to hold him accountable is that if he resigned he would be replaced by a Democrat. I argue that Democrats should have removed Clinton for his behavior for a similar reason...Al Gore would have become President. But say Franken would have been replaced by a Republican and it would have shifted the balance of power in the Senate. Was his offense severe enough that you embrace the real harms that Republican power would exact on the world? I would say no. I'm a utilitarian...I have to care both about the women harmed by Franken AND the people harmed by Republicans. It baffles me that the Republicans stuck by Kavanagh and Trump...the alternative wasn't Democrats, it was some equally conservative justice and Mike Pence. Perhaps letting either impeachment succeed would damn the party to defeat in the next election (especially with Trump where there may be people who are so attached to him as an individual personality they would blame the party), but at least with Franken, the Democrats were able to easily hold that seat.

So like, it's complicated and cannot be sorted out by just chanting believe women.

Sam the Cinema Snob

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Re: #MeToo: Sexual Harassment
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2020, 09:08:02 AM »
Good points. I certainly agree we need to watch out for bad faith actors. I guess to me it's the number of the reports against Biden that gives me pause and makes me consider it might be true, even if the sources are not as reliable.

I'll have to do more research. Right now I have more political issues with Biden which is beyond the scope of this thread.
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Bondo

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Re: #MeToo: Sexual Harassment
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2020, 02:29:58 PM »
Vox has now done some additional reporting on the matter and provided additional information that would make it categorized as rape. It provides some additional context that I wasn't finding in the prior reporting (to the degree that this can include the prior reporting as part of the story). I believe it and it firmly plants us in #5, how to balance the moral implications. I do not think we should just blindly stick with Joe Biden, but I also do not think that Bernie Sanders, having been strongly rejected by voters in heads-up contests, can just be defaulted into the candidacy. It is a tricky situation. I'd feel more confident in letting the convention delegates decide and basically letting the Party decide, but many Sanders supporters are manic conspiracy theorists in less sticky situations. Would have been much more useful to have THIS information drop in the fall.

smirnoff

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Re: Re: #MeToo: Sexual Harassment
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2020, 02:39:15 PM »
but many Sanders supporters are manic conspiracy theorists in less sticky situations. Would have been much more useful to have THIS information drop in the fall.

That's why they're waiting till fall to drop the bomb on Sanders.


Sam the Cinema Snob

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Re: #MeToo: Sexual Harassment
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2020, 03:04:18 PM »
If the Dems stick with Biden I think I'll have a hard time considering them justified in every critiquing sexual misconduct from a Republican candidate again. Clean your own house first.
"It's all research." -roujin

Bondo

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Re: #MeToo: Sexual Harassment
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2020, 03:16:13 PM »
I mean, I guess there is a logic of a drop of blood ruins a pool of water, but I would say that even if neither house is clean, clearly one is much cleaner.

FLYmeatwad

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Re: #MeToo: Sexual Harassment
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2020, 06:21:58 PM »
The stock on Cuomo being the democratic nominee has risen in the past few days, think even higher than Sanders at this point, though both are very far behind Biden.