Author Topic: Dune (2021)  (Read 2255 times)

MrAlfredKralik

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Dune (2021)
« on: November 03, 2021, 11:59:10 AM »
I am hoping to get some discussion of Dune going.

I watched it the weekend it came out on HBO Max. This would have been a must-see at the theater, if not for the whole COVID thing,

Anyhow, I found this to be a pretty amazing film.

Things I liked:

* The visuals are just stunning and I really felt like I had stepped in to another reality.
* The story is both (somewhat) complex yet the big picture plot is pretty easy to grok (the boss takes something away from Party A and gives it to Party B so that Party B can then be destroyed by Party A in retaliation)
* The movie doesn’t depend on action but the action scenes really propel the plot forward.
* The action scenes remind me a bit of Fury Road, in the way they really move the plot forward and in the way that they are just really intense and interesting. This isn’t two superheros beating one another up for 35 minutes.
* The characters are memorable and the acting is really good. All the on screen talent is really good, even if Chalamet is kind of bland.

Things I disliked:

* Chalamet’s character is very passive, although this is partly by design. However, I find it problematic when the main character of a film (or a series of films) are just passive characters tossed this way and that.
* The ending isn’t really bad per se, but it certainly leaves you wanting more in a way that will feel unfulfilling to many.
* Some of the information presented at the beginning doesn’t ever really become very relevant and kind of muddles the exposition.

Anyhow, anyone have thoughts?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 12:01:12 PM by MrAlfredKralik »

Eric/E.T.

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Re: Dune (2021)
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2021, 08:12:21 PM »
Have you read the book? Just wondering. I've read it twice, though the first time was a very fragmented experience; the more recent reading felt like a first reading in many regards. Anyway.

I saw it in the theater, and think I came down more favorable because of it. It is quite a vivid portrayal of the desert in one of several ways the film and story bare resemblance to Lawrence of Arabia (a film I don't particularly like, but think, as many, that the cinematography is top notch).

In the book, one of the more challenging things for me to visualize was "the voice" used by the Bene Gesserit to control people. I am a bit conflicted on its portrayal in the film. I never envisioned it being such a direct/overt act in its use; it's almost violent in the film. I figured it was more in the realm of a Jedi Mind Trick, a little more subtle.

There are two other visual elements I was curious about: the shields and, of course, the worms. I think Villeneuve and his crew nailed both. I really like the idea of the thin, barely perceptible, but immensely strong shield, and the red and blue was a fun sci-fi touch. I felt that the combination of the worms and some of the voiceovers regarding the worms/makers from the opening cast them in a more religious/holy light that I appreciated. To take the point further, the solemnity of the Fremen and their relationship with their land and the worms helps maintain a sparse and serious tone into which I could invest myself, making the whole endeavor seem more worthwhile. The movie may be vastly humorless, but I think that, in a sense, differentiates it from Star Wars and Lord of the Rings (two oft-read comparisons), while not making it less worthy of one's time or inferior.

Where I disagree with you is on the character work. I thought it was shoddy. Thufir Hawat is not given enough due or development. Leto Atreides is inflexibly solemn and uninteresting (but also kind of that way in the book), Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halleck are even more straightforward archetypes than in the book, and both Liet-Kynes and Stilgar get too little meaningful screen time. When a good deal of these characters are killed off, I felt very little emotion compared to when they are killed off in the book. In that regard, I think Dune has some of the same problems as the Harry Potter series, as the book version of both feature rich character work that the films fail to develop.

I'd also agree on Chalamet. He has a lot of personality, and while I don't think he's bad here, I don't know how well we can expect him to do such a serious role, full-on. I think Villeneuve and company would have been better casting a lesser-known/unknown actor in that spot. I also don't think a talent like Oscar Isaac is necessary for the role of Leto. Take lesser-knowns with lesser expectation and baggage from a movie star's career and use them to form the acting foundation. In this light, the worst piece of casting was Jason Momoa as Duncan Idaho. I don't need to see Chalamet and Aquaman going back and forth in that stilted sort of way. It was weird.

Overall, this thing is like a B-/C+ for me. I hear what you and a lot of people are saying about the ending, but as someone who really likes the book, I think it's near-perfect. The stage is set for an amazing second half. I look forward to seeing what Zendaya will actually bring to the Chani role, as I think she is one of the more interesting characters in the book that breaks the the mold of the worshipper and the worshipped that's so important to the narrative.
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Bondo

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Re: Dune (2021)
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2021, 08:59:38 PM »
I just wanted more about the politics. True of Phantom Menace and true of this. Less action, just politics!

Sandy

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Re: Dune (2021)
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2021, 09:32:52 PM »
I really enjoyed the movie and the actors' portrayals. Chalamet is a favorite in my house and can do no wrong (That is the perspective of a 16 year old, but I can't fault her adoration.). I even liked the on-the-nose Apocalypse Now homage from Stellan Skarsgård.

This may be a question to Sam, but anyone is free to help me see the point of this plot point.

If the Emperor wanted to destroy Altreides, why bother putting him on Arrakis? Seems like a convoluted way to go.

Sam the Cinema Snob

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Re: Dune (2021)
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2021, 10:18:46 PM »
They have a one-off line about how there are no satellite over Dune and that's why they choose it. In the book they make it sound more like the Emperor is expected to give over Dune to another house and he picks the Atredies because they are getting too powerful and he plots with the Harkonnens to wipe them out, figuring the rest of the houses will fall in line as long as the spice continues to flow.

That's the real flaw with this film, the fact your don't really get the true sense of scale of why the spice is important and why there's this power struggle over it. If you control the spice you quite literally have the power to stop all interstellar travel and the fact that tons of the elite are addicted to spice. In the book there are lots of spice addicted characters and it's shown how the rich and powerful need spice not only to sustain their powerful economy but also to insight indulge in it recreationally. And spice withdrawal is supposed to be horribly painful.

I mean, Dune is in some ways an unfilmable story because Herbert writes it in a way that leans into the advantages of the medium of text with lots of dense, interconnected details that are just lost in visual storytelling.

MrAlfredKralik

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Re: Dune (2021)
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2021, 09:09:35 AM »
They have a one-off line about how there are no satellite over Dune and that's why they choose it. In the book they make it sound more like the Emperor is expected to give over Dune to another house and he picks the Atredies because they are getting too powerful and he plots with the Harkonnens to wipe them out, figuring the rest of the houses will fall in line as long as the spice continues to flow.

That's the real flaw with this film, the fact your don't really get the true sense of scale of why the spice is important and why there's this power struggle over it. If you control the spice you quite literally have the power to stop all interstellar travel and the fact that tons of the elite are addicted to spice. In the book there are lots of spice addicted characters and it's shown how the rich and powerful need spice not only to sustain their powerful economy but also to insight indulge in it recreationally. And spice withdrawal is supposed to be horribly painful.

I mean, Dune is in some ways an unfilmable story because Herbert writes it in a way that leans into the advantages of the medium of text with lots of dense, interconnected details that are just lost in visual storytelling.

This is a good point about the film not really emphasizing how important the Spice really is. I mean, you get a sense of it, but only in that short bit of exposition.

MrAlfredKralik

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Re: Dune (2021)
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2021, 09:10:57 AM »
Have you read the book? Just wondering. I've read it twice, though the first time was a very fragmented experience; the more recent reading felt like a first reading in many regards. Anyway.

I saw it in the theater, and think I came down more favorable because of it. It is quite a vivid portrayal of the desert in one of several ways the film and story bare resemblance to Lawrence of Arabia (a film I don't particularly like, but think, as many, that the cinematography is top notch).

In the book, one of the more challenging things for me to visualize was "the voice" used by the Bene Gesserit to control people. I am a bit conflicted on its portrayal in the film. I never envisioned it being such a direct/overt act in its use; it's almost violent in the film. I figured it was more in the realm of a Jedi Mind Trick, a little more subtle.

There are two other visual elements I was curious about: the shields and, of course, the worms. I think Villeneuve and his crew nailed both. I really like the idea of the thin, barely perceptible, but immensely strong shield, and the red and blue was a fun sci-fi touch. I felt that the combination of the worms and some of the voiceovers regarding the worms/makers from the opening cast them in a more religious/holy light that I appreciated. To take the point further, the solemnity of the Fremen and their relationship with their land and the worms helps maintain a sparse and serious tone into which I could invest myself, making the whole endeavor seem more worthwhile. The movie may be vastly humorless, but I think that, in a sense, differentiates it from Star Wars and Lord of the Rings (two oft-read comparisons), while not making it less worthy of one's time or inferior.

Where I disagree with you is on the character work. I thought it was shoddy. Thufir Hawat is not given enough due or development. Leto Atreides is inflexibly solemn and uninteresting (but also kind of that way in the book), Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halleck are even more straightforward archetypes than in the book, and both Liet-Kynes and Stilgar get too little meaningful screen time. When a good deal of these characters are killed off, I felt very little emotion compared to when they are killed off in the book. In that regard, I think Dune has some of the same problems as the Harry Potter series, as the book version of both feature rich character work that the films fail to develop.

I'd also agree on Chalamet. He has a lot of personality, and while I don't think he's bad here, I don't know how well we can expect him to do such a serious role, full-on. I think Villeneuve and company would have been better casting a lesser-known/unknown actor in that spot. I also don't think a talent like Oscar Isaac is necessary for the role of Leto. Take lesser-knowns with lesser expectation and baggage from a movie star's career and use them to form the acting foundation. In this light, the worst piece of casting was Jason Momoa as Duncan Idaho. I don't need to see Chalamet and Aquaman going back and forth in that stilted sort of way. It was weird.

Overall, this thing is like a B-/C+ for me. I hear what you and a lot of people are saying about the ending, but as someone who really likes the book, I think it's near-perfect. The stage is set for an amazing second half. I look forward to seeing what Zendaya will actually bring to the Chani role, as I think she is one of the more interesting characters in the book that breaks the the mold of the worshipper and the worshipped that's so important to the narrative.

I can’t disagree with you that the character work is thin, but what I was trying to say was that I did find them *memorable*, which I find important in these sorts of film, which have fairly large casts.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2021, 09:12:54 AM by MrAlfredKralik »

Sandy

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Re: Dune (2021)
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2021, 07:28:15 PM »
They have a one-off line about how there are no satellite over Dune and that's why they choose it.

Haha! Is that all they gave me to work with?! No wonder if felt not enough.

Quote
In the book they make it sound more like the Emperor is expected to give over Dune to another house and he picks the Atredies because they are getting too powerful and he plots with the Harkonnens to wipe them out, figuring the rest of the houses will fall in line as long as the spice continues to flow.

It's still an odd back door premise, but a story has to have some kind of reason to be. After all, the eagles could have easily dropped the ring into Mount Doom and saved Frodo and friends a long road trip. :)

Quote
That's the real flaw with this film, the fact your don't really get the true sense of scale of why the spice is important and why there's this power struggle over it. If you control the spice you quite literally have the power to stop all interstellar travel and the fact that tons of the elite are addicted to spice. In the book there are lots of spice addicted characters and it's shown how the rich and powerful need spice not only to sustain their powerful economy but also to insight indulge in it recreationally. And spice withdrawal is supposed to be horribly painful.

I mean, Dune is in some ways an unfilmable story because Herbert writes it in a way that leans into the advantages of the medium of text with lots of dense, interconnected details that are just lost in visual storytelling.

Thanks for filling in these details. I appreciate knowing them!



This is a good point about the film not really emphasizing how important the Spice really is. I mean, you get a sense of it, but only in that short bit of exposition.

Welcome, MrAlfredKralik! Happy to see you here. :)

oldkid

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Re: Dune (2021)
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2021, 10:33:06 PM »
What I read most in the critiques of this film above is “not enough”.  Cmon, folks, it’s already 2 1/2 hours long and it is trying to give as much time as possible to fan favorites.  I don’t think it can give more, without being a tv series.

Im a person who read the book four times and the first time I struggled through it for two years in high school.  What I think this movie does far better than the previous adaptations (movie and mini-series) it to express the mythic nature of the story.  It loves to make the memorable stuck in the mind, and while the characters aren’t fully developed (they couldn’t be compared to the book), we remember them. Each is distinctive and wonderful.  This is the mythos of Dune, this secular gospel.   This film, as well, gave me a whole large audience to speak to this universe with, which has filled so many of my hours.

Something about the Emperor’s plan.  In the book, the Emperor was no longer the strongest house in the system.  The Atreides house was building a stronger, more versatile army, and their nobility was capturing the loyalty of many other houses.  House Hakonnen had a stranglehold on spice, the “oil” of the system.  By giving the Atreides the planet Arakkis, and then plotting their overthrow with the Harkonnens, the Emperor can’t lose because both houses are weakened, and the rest of the houses are filled with the fear of the Emperor.

Another point— I’ve been seeing many cut scenes referred to and shown.  I’m hoping for an extended version of this film that might fill some of the gaps, noticed or unnoticed.  Like more background on Dr. Yueh.
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Sam the Cinema Snob

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Re: Dune (2021)
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2021, 08:18:48 AM »
I guess I'd be more ready to give some slack that nuances were dropped if the film didn't add a whole prologue section to the film in Cladan which felt kinda pointless when scenes from the book cut could have established the same relationships while also giving us more details about the conflict on Dune.