Author Topic: #148: The Dead Girl / Jesus Camp / Oscar Picks  (Read 16876 times)

Bucho

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Re: #148: The Dead Girl / Jesus Camp / Oscar Picks
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2007, 11:23:43 PM »
I couldn't follow the reasoning in one part of the review of Jesus Camp. Adam and Sam agreed there is an inherent hypocrisy in the film because it simultaneously displays the alarming nature of evangelical delusion and some supposed impotency that comes with that delusion. That because these people believe in ludicrous things somehow they aren't a threat to the logical way of thinking. The scale of their power doesn't hinge on their ability to reason, it hinges on their numbers and their conviction. Earlier one of the boys had mentioned 80 million americans fall into this category.

The idea that the movie sabotages itself in some way because it shows the threat as being based in irrationality makes no sense to me. (For the record I haven't seen the movie).

Apart from that, I liked the show as usual.
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jeffdaddy

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Re: #148: The Dead Girl / Jesus Camp / Oscar Picks
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2007, 12:24:19 PM »
The scale of their power doesn't hinge on their ability to reason, it hinges on their numbers and their conviction. Earlier one of the boys had mentioned 80 million americans fall into this category.

The idea that the movie sabotages itself in some way because it shows the threat as being based in irrationality makes no sense to me. (For the record I haven't seen the movie).

Where it truly sabotages itself and shows its propagandic colors relates to how they paint those 80 million with a broad brush.  In his review, Adam said:

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“I think that anybody who argues that this film is blatantly anti-Evangelical propaganda saw a different movie than I did.”

I saw a different movie than Adam did.

I would agree that the filmmakers definitely want to appear impartial, but they clearly are not; the tonal choices alone -- the music especially -- clearly show their hand, as Sam and Adam discussed.  I have to commend both of them highly for not being as blind as most critics were, the majority of which not only praised Jesus Camp but described it as “objective” and “impartial”.  Please.

I have no qualms with the actual footage shown, or even how it’s cobbled together (for the most part).  It is what it is, and any Evangelical who thinks and acts like Becky Fisher and her clan would do well to watch this film; it may be the first time in their lives they’ve been able to, in a sense, objectively view their own conduct.  (My heart sank as I watched those kids.)  It may make them truly self-aware in ways they haven’t been before, and at the end of that process honestly ask themselves “Is this life and world-view really imitating Jesus?”  And if that happens, then the filmmakers truly have done a good service.

All that said, this is propaganda, and is explicitly so for one reason: the on-screen statistics.

Ewing and Grady carefully cite and place numerical statistics about American Evangelicals throughout the film. They continually juxtapose these statistics about the very broad Evangelical culture up against what takes place at one specific camp, thus implying that all evangelicals act, think and believe like this.  This isn’t just crassly manipulative; it’s intellectually bankrupt.

An example (from memory): one home-schooling mother states her own personal views ("science doesn't prove anything") and then the film shows the statistic "75% of all home-school families are Evangelical", thus implying that all Evangelical home-schooling parents believe and act just like this one mother does. This is stereotyping of the grossest order, and the film does this again and again and again.

It is the equivalent of showing an African-American gang committing violence and then showing a statistic "There are over 40,000,000 Black people in America today." In essence, what Jesus Camp does is more commonly known as propaganda.  Leni Riefenstahl would be proud.

Just like any minority or sub-culture the Evangelical community is diverse, ranging from people like Becky Fisher to, yes, the National Association of Evangelicals that has long been a pro-environment advocate that has directly challenged the Bush administration about its policies as well as also challenging them on issues of torture.  Differences in the Evangelical culture have become more public within the last couple of years as old-school leaders like Dobson and Falwell have famously clashed with more progressive minded -- and influential -- Evangelical leaders like Rick Warren (who indeed is not only representative of a huge segment of Evangelicalism but is also radically different from radicals like Becky Fisher).

Ewing and Grady’s fear-mongering would have you believe otherwise, and the tactics they use to do it have long been condemned when used against any other minority or group.  So, too, should they be condemned here.

Adam

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Re: #148: The Dead Girl / Jesus Camp / Oscar Picks
« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2007, 12:34:55 PM »
Jeff, I actually have a response to this I wanted to get into on the show, but we can't find the time... I will post something in here when I can...
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Adam

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Re: #148: The Dead Girl / Jesus Camp / Oscar Picks
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2007, 01:10:32 PM »
Just like any minority or sub-culture the Evangelical community is diverse, ranging from people like Becky Fisher to, yes, the National Association of Evangelicals that has long been a pro-environment advocate that has directly challenged the Bush administration about its policies as well as also challenging them on issues of torture.  Differences in the Evangelical culture have become more public within the last couple of years as old-school leaders like Dobson and Falwell have famously clashed with more progressive minded -- and influential -- Evangelical leaders like Rick Warren (who indeed is not only representative of a huge segment of Evangelicalism but is also radically different from radicals like Becky Fisher).
Well, I guess I don't have a great response based on this paragraph... my point was going to be that the comparison between evangelicals and African Americans doesn't work because while all African Americans certainly do not all walk, talk and think the same... can't we say that most evangelicals probably do (more or less, of course)? After all, isn't there a doctrine they live by? The fact that what defines them is not genetics but the principles by which they have chosen to live their lives makes it possible, I think, for the filmmakers to generalize. Is every single evangelical home school parent as clueless an instructor as the mom we see here? Probably not. But isn't it likely they are teaching essentially the same things about evolution, the environment, etc?

You obviously know more than I do, and if there really is a vital progressive-minded Evangelical movement out there, that pretty much destroys my argument... It seems the distinction the directors fail to draw is the one between Evangelicals and Fundamentalists -- less wiggle room with the Fundamentalists, which is what Fisher and her crowd clearly are.

Of course, we ultimately see eye to eye on the film... you just think the propaganda is more blatant than I do.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 01:13:11 PM by Adam »
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jeffdaddy

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Re: #148: The Dead Girl / Jesus Camp / Oscar Picks
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2007, 01:11:19 PM »
Cool, I'd love to hear your thoughts (as well as other listeners/posters).  In addition, I feel compelled to amend a statement from my original post...

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I have to commend both of them highly for not being as blind as most critics were

...to say "I have to commend both of them highly for not being blind like most critics were."  Honestly, the clarity you guys brought to analyzing the film's tone and intent was a breath of fresh air.

jeffdaddy

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Re: #148: The Dead Girl / Jesus Camp / Oscar Picks
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2007, 02:10:15 PM »
Quote
the comparison between evangelicals and African Americans doesn't work because while all African Americans certainly do not all walk, talk and think the same... can't we say that most evangelicals probably do (more or less, of course)?

Not quite, actually, although your point (“The fact that what defines them is not genetics but the principles”) does make me think of a more relevant analogy than African-Americans:  Muslims. 

While many would like to couch Islam into the confines of radical terrorists, clearly the global state of Islam is a very diverse one even as all Muslims hold true to some fundamental tenants and read from the same Qur’an. 

Just as we can’t generalize about Muslims, we can’t generalize about American Evangelicals.  I mentioned Rick Warren earlier as a credibly different (and representative) Evangelical than Becky Fisher.  Another prominent one is Jim Wallis, author of “God’s Politics”, a leader in what has been dubbed the Evangelical Left; he is founder of “Sojourners” and a member of “Red-Letter Christians”, two organizations known for their emphasis on social justice and the environment over polarizing political issues like gay marriage. Yet people like Wallis wear the Evangelical label proudly, and they are a part of the large statistics that Jesus Camp employs.

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It seems the distinction the directors fail to draw is the one between Evangelicals and Fundamentalists -- less wiggle room with the Fundamentalists, which is what Fisher and her crowd clearly are.

Bingo.  That basically nails it.  Jesus Camp would have us believe that all Evangelicals are Fundamentalists, and nothing could be further from the truth.  Again, a docu that painted all Muslims as radical terrorists would be laughed out of the screening room.  And so what makes the Jesus Camp directors propagandists is that, ultimately, it would’ve been so easy for them to paint an accurate, diverse picture of Evangelicalism -- but in their laziness (and apparent prejudice) Becky Fisher becomes their poster girl.

Or to put it in terms Sam would admire, Ewing and Grady are just Babeling.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 02:20:51 PM by jeffdaddy »

thew

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Re: #148: The Dead Girl / Jesus Camp / Oscar Picks
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2007, 05:37:07 PM »
First, is there a better thread for discussing Jesus Camp?  I searched but the search functions on this forum are beyond useless.

I just saw Jesus Camp last night for the first time.  I have not heard the Filmspotting review, but plan to listen to it in the near future.

My initial reaction during viewing was that the movie is blatantly the lowest form of anti-religious propaganda.  These people were being painted in the poorest possible light.  And then I realized that I was bringing my own prejudices to the movie.  The movie was simply showing them how they thought of themselves, indeed, how they wished to be seen.  I was the one who was painting them in a bad light.  The people featured in the film believe it portrays them accurately and they support the film.  They even maintain a blog at http://www.jesuscampers.com/ in which they support the film but defend themselves from accusations people throw at them which are totally unsupported by the material in the film.  For example, the film clearly shows that the one family is being home-schooled in Creationism.  On the blog they proudly declare that they are creationists.  But people have been accusing them of being anti-science by indoctrinating their kids against natural selection.  But this is not true and not supported by what is shown in the film.

What we have here is an example of an insular community whose views and actions are positively reinforced within the community.  Of course it looks strange to people who are not a part of that community.     



   

Quote
the comparison between evangelicals and African Americans doesn't work because while all African Americans certainly do not all walk, talk and think the same... can't we say that most evangelicals probably do (more or less, of course)?

Not quite, actually, although your point (“The fact that what defines them is not genetics but the principles”) does make me think of a more relevant analogy than African-Americans:  Muslims. 

While many would like to couch Islam into the confines of radical terrorists, clearly the global state of Islam is a very diverse one even as all Muslims hold true to some fundamental tenants and read from the same Qur’an. 

Just as we can’t generalize about Muslims, we can’t generalize about American Evangelicals.  I mentioned Rick Warren earlier as a credibly different (and representative) Evangelical than Becky Fisher.  Another prominent one is Jim Wallis, author of “God’s Politics”, a leader in what has been dubbed the Evangelical Left; he is founder of “Sojourners” and a member of “Red-Letter Christians”, two organizations known for their emphasis on social justice and the environment over polarizing political issues like gay marriage. Yet people like Wallis wear the Evangelical label proudly, and they are a part of the large statistics that Jesus Camp employs.

While lumping this particular group in with all Evangelicals is a bit dishonest, your point breaks down anyhow.  Certainly one can't generalize about American Evangelicals or Muslims, but one can't compare Muslims to American Evangelicals because they're not at the same level.  That's like comparing Southern Baptists to all of Judaism.  One is a particular branch of Christianity, and one is a broad religion encompassing many different faiths.  I'd offer a more apt comparison, but I am no expert in faith, and so anything I could try to offer would be crude and inaccurate.

I think the real problem here is the vague meaning of Evangelical.  To some (mostly Europe) it means simply protestant.  To some (specifically in Germany) it means Lutheran in particular.  Of course, when we talk of American Evangelicals it means something different.  But what exactly one means when one says "American Evangelicals" is hard to put one's finger on exactly.  You bring up the point that there are people who self-identify as Evangelicals who do not share the same views as those featured in the movie.  I think this is self-evident, and therefore it is not misleading when they use statistics like X% of home schooled children are Evangelicals.  No one in their right mind would think that all Evangelicals think and act like those in the movie.

The filmmakers here set out to tell a story.  Their hook for this story is this one camp for evangelicals.  And what a fascinating story they do tell.

jeffdaddy

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Re: #148: The Dead Girl / Jesus Camp / Oscar Picks
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2007, 09:42:32 PM »
one can't compare Muslims to American Evangelicals because they're not at the same level.  That's like comparing Southern Baptists to all of Judaism.  One is a particular branch of Christianity, and one is a broad religion encompassing many different faiths. 

The comparison isn't meant to be equal across-the-line.  It is made, simply, for the broader point that generalizing about a community/race/subculture is unfair, reductionist, overly simplistic to the point of falsity, and the tools of propaganda.

I think the real problem here is the vague meaning of Evangelical.  But what exactly one means when one says "American Evangelicals" is hard to put one's finger on exactly. 

Which is exactly why it is irresponsible of the directors to juxtapose statistics that encompass all Evangelicals up against the actions of a specific, select few.

You bring up the point that there are people who self-identify as Evangelicals who do not share the same views as those featured in the movie.  I think this is self-evident, and therefore it is not misleading when they use statistics like X% of home schooled children are Evangelicals.

Self-evident?  How is that so, particularly in this politically charged culture that commonly groups Evangelicals with hard-right Christian conservatives (a stereotype this film clearly panders to)?  More to the point in critiquing this film: the way it's constructed, the people and places documented are used as evidence to support and represent the statistics shown throughout.  You disagree, so I'll simply let others who are reading this and have seen the film come to the conclusion of which perspective they find more credible.

Besides, the "self-evident" defense is irresponsible journalism.  It's not a responsible excuse for credible documentation, particularly when the subject is so unfamiliar to those who don't consider themselves Evangelical.

No one in their right mind would think that all Evangelicals think and act like those in the movie.

Then David Edelstein is not in his right mind.  In his year-end wrap up he wrote, "Three terrific documentaries, Jesus Camp, Deliver Us From Evil, and Jonestown, made the best imaginable case for atheism."  Such a statement (egregiously) assumes those films made the best possible representation of God/Religion and that the representation was credibly found to be severely lacking.  I can't speak to the latter two films as I have not seen them, but as for Jesus Camp it's not a fair representation at all -- yet based solely on its content, Edelstein believes the case for atheism is all but open and shut.  So much for self-evidence.

The filmmakers here set out to tell a story.  Their hook for this story is this one camp for evangelicals.  And what a fascinating story they do tell.

The filmmakers most certainly set out to tell a story and it sure is a fascinating one, and if it were simply one about this camp then I wouldn't have any complaints.  In fact, I'd be applauding them.  But using those stats -- and so purposefully timed and placed, too -- against the backdrop of that singular story is what makes it propaganda.

I don't say all this to rant against you, thew, and I'll even go so far as to say I appreciate and respect your objective discernment.  But unfortnately not everyone views films with such an eye, especially those who harbor prejudice (even remotely) despite their level of intellect otherwise.  I simply disagree with your view, strongly, and I find it disheartening that most people do not see how the same treatment/filmmaking of another religion or specific group would be vilified rather than praised.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 09:58:22 PM by jeffdaddy »

thew

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Re: #148: The Dead Girl / Jesus Camp / Oscar Picks
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2007, 01:18:43 AM »


The comparison isn't meant to be equal across-the-line.  It is made, simply, for the broader point that generalizing about a community/race/subculture is unfair, reductionist, overly simplistic to the point of falsity, and the tools of propaganda.

We are in total agreement here.  I think where we disagree is the amount to which this movie succumbs to using these propagandistic techniques.  Or, for the sake of argument, if we accept that the movie is propagandistic in nature, is there anything worthwhile to be salvaged from it?  I guess in some ways I am used to looking at most media as propaganda in some way, and able to extract what is useful from it.  So I would answer yes.

I also agree that the juxtaposition of the statistics against the actions of this specific group is dishonest.  But as a person schooled in science myself, when I see the statistic of the percentage of home schooled children that are evangelicals, I don't automatically assume that all home schooled evangelicals are being taught in the same fashion as those depicted.  Likewise, when I see the footage of the congregation blessing the cutout of George Bush, I know that this is but a small part of the big picture that the film-makers chose to show me. 

The bottom line here is whether I think the film-makers were being intentionally manipulative or not.  I believe that with a few exceptions they were not.  I take the film-makers at their word; that they set out to simply chronicle this camp and use it as a springboard for talking about children with faith, specifically those who self-identify with the Evangelical movement.  When they saw that the message being delivered to these kids was frequently very political, divisive, and polarizing, it forced their hand.  They couldn't help but turn it into a political, divisive, and polarizing movie.  But I believe that there is still a worthwhile movie to be seen here.

Am I correct in understanding that you think the entire work is propagandistic garbage?

p.s. As you can see I'm very new to the boards here but have been a bit of a lurker for a while.  I'm amazed at the level of respectful dialog on this forum.  I value hearing your opinions, jeffdaddy, and I'm glad this hasn't devolved into a flamewar like most other boards would have by now.

jeffdaddy

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Re: #148: The Dead Girl / Jesus Camp / Oscar Picks
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2007, 12:45:23 PM »
p.s. I'm amazed at the level of respectful dialog on this forum.  I'm glad this hasn't devolved into a flamewar like most other boards would have by now.

Ditto!  I had ditched boards long ago for the very reason you stated, so to find the civility, respect AND intellect present here is refreshing and fun.

if we accept that the movie is propagandistic in nature, is there anything worthwhile to be salvaged from it?  I would answer yes.  Am I correct in understanding that you think the entire work is propagandistic garbage?

No, I don't believe it is, actually, even though the "statistic technique" is (which is substantial to the overall effect of the film). 

But yeah, there definitely is a value to the film.  In fact, I said this earlier in the thread:

"I have no qualms with the actual footage shown, or even how it’s cobbled together (for the most part).  It is what it is, and any Evangelical who thinks and acts like Becky Fisher and her clan would do well to watch this film; it may be the first time in their lives they’ve been able to, in a sense, objectively view their own conduct.  (My heart sank as I watched those kids.)  It may make them truly self-aware in ways they haven’t been before, and at the end of that process honestly ask themselves “Is this life and world-view really imitating Jesus?”  And if that happens, then the filmmakers truly have done a good service."

I simply wish they would've left their documentary at that and not indicted all Evangelicals via all-encompassing statistics, with the only narrative context being primarily the Becky Fisher camp.