Author Topic: #151: Lives of Others / Birth of a Nation / Top 5 Voyeurs  (Read 15785 times)

Adam

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Re: #151: Lives of Others / Birth of a Nation / Top 5 Voyeurs
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2007, 11:42:12 PM »
This is consistent with what I have read... but incorporating them into a feature film and then in terms of its influence... that's Birth's legacy.
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sdedalus

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Re: #151: Lives of Others / Birth of a Nation / Top 5 Voyeurs
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2007, 12:52:11 AM »
Yeah, it's a great synthesizing or summarizing film.  It was also, like you said, the first blockbuster.  And the controversy around it only feed the box office (in cities where it wasn't banned) for the same reasons it does today.

But I think that because it was so famous (or notorious) it has assumed a larger place in film history than it really warrants.

Every one of the films you guys will be watching are as influential to film history, and none of them sparked the Klan revival of the 20s and 30s.

Anyway, I hate arguing about this film.  I think it may be the worst film I've ever seen.  It's a crime against humanity and a crime against cinema.  It's only value, only value, is in sparking discussion of the role of morality in art.  There are literally hundreds of better ways to learn about the art of the silent film in general and of DW Griffith in particular.
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Osprey

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Re: #151: Lives of Others / Birth of a Nation / Top 5 Voyeurs
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2007, 01:13:59 AM »
Because it sounds like a vile, mean spirited film that did a lot to set back social relations.  Why are we still watching it? Can we not appreciate that it advanced cinema in some fashion, but why do we need to watch or teach it?  It sounds about as morally bankrupt as it gets.  I imagine it would be hard for an African-American person to sit through it.  It says alot that a movie as brutal as this one sounds was such a popular success, as a bit of escapism...

BOAN is ridiculous now, but the fact that it was seen at the box office, won awards etc... shows that it was not ridiculous.  It was a successful film- not some techinically perfect exercise that no one saw.  The Merchant of Venice, Oliver Twist and Huck Finn are not taught in some schools for less virulent racism (it sounds like it doesn't get more virulent than BOAN) - so it's interesting that this continues to be part of the canon.
I'm sorry, I don't disagree... but I still don't completely get how it's reception at the time it came out (won awards?) has any bearing on anything.

And in response to sdedalus, who certainly sounds like he knows what he is saying... my research on Birth suggests otherwise. Yes, there is debate on the degree to which Griffith was being revolutionary (what really constitutes the first 'narrative' is certainly up for debate)... but I haven't found anything that says he wasn't being revolutionary.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 01:15:31 AM by Osprey »

sdedalus

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Re: #151: Lives of Others / Birth of a Nation / Top 5 Voyeurs
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2007, 01:28:37 AM »
I gets taught because it was taught to the people who do the teaching by people for whom it was taught to by people who didn't think there was anything wrong with a film valorizing the KKK.  It's taught because it's a film that you teach.  It's in the canon.  But it shouldn't be.

It's a vicious (literally) circle.

I'm gonna have to go watch Griffith's biopic of Lincoln now to try and get it out of my head.
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sdedalus

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Re: #151: Lives of Others / Birth of a Nation / Top 5 Voyeurs
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2007, 03:21:48 AM »
Well, that didn't really help.  He pretty much entirely avoids the subject of slavery, the cause of the War comes down to Walter Huston repeatedly glancing skyward and in a stentorian tone announcing that "The Union must be preserved!"

Visually, it's obviously an early sound film.  The sound quality was really terrible and the camera hardly ever moves (early sound cameras were to big to float around in the ways they did in the late silent era).  Griffith manages to condense Lincoln's entire life to an hour and a half, mainly by structuring the film as a collection of short scenes connected by fades.  Lincoln rarely has anything more to say on an issue than a sound bite or a short folksy anecdote.  Lincoln's most famous speeches are elided together or eliminated altogether: the "House Divided" line is inserted into the Lincoln-Douglas debates (which consist of, IIRC, 6 total lines), "Malice toward none and charity toward all" from the second inaugural is moved to some remarks before Our American Cousin starts (along with the final lines of the Gettysburg address).  The War is nothing but crushing defeats, until suddenly the North wins.

It's better than BOAN in that its not actively evil, and there are some very nice framings.  But Griffith's silent work was all movement and kineticism, both in camera and in editing.  This film just kind of sits there.
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Adam

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Re: #151: Lives of Others / Birth of a Nation / Top 5 Voyeurs
« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2007, 07:55:36 AM »
Anyway, I hate arguing about this film.  I think it may be the worst film I've ever seen.  It's a crime against humanity and a crime against cinema.  It's only value, only value, is in sparking discussion of the role of morality in art. 
Well put... we disagree... but well put. And I would add that the value you mention is a significant one.
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Adam

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Re: #151: Lives of Others / Birth of a Nation / Top 5 Voyeurs
« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2007, 07:58:51 AM »
Because it sounds like a vile, mean spirited film that did a lot to set back social relations.  Why are we still watching it? Can we not appreciate that it advanced cinema in some fashion, but why do we need to watch or teach it?  It sounds about as morally bankrupt as it gets.  I imagine it would be hard for an African-American person to sit through it.  It says alot that a movie as brutal as this one sounds was such a popular success, as a bit of escapism...
There are a lot of vile, mean spirited films that might be hard for any group of people to sit through. That doesn't mean we pretend they didn't exist, especially when they had as big of an impact as this one did. I would refer again to our question and what sdedalus wrote -- simply using it as a jumping off point for the content vs. craft debate and morality in art makes it worthy in my mind.
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winrit

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Re: #151: Lives of Others / Birth of a Nation / Top 5 Voyeurs
« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2007, 10:18:34 PM »
I like to think of it as history.  We don't ignore despicable ideas or acts when we study history because we want to bring meaning and context to our world.  It is better to bring meaning to it than to forget it because we all know it can't be forgotten; it is part of who we are as a society, it's our history.
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sdedalus

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Re: #151: Lives of Others / Birth of a Nation / Top 5 Voyeurs
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2007, 12:46:19 AM »
Absolutely.  It should be studied in the same regard as, say, the Dredd Scott decision is studied.

It's things like it showing up on the AFI list that bug me, though.
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