Author Topic: Politics  (Read 227632 times)

mañana

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Re: US Politics (and Transition)
« Reply #1360 on: August 19, 2009, 01:07:36 PM »
Matt, that's why you provide a 2-tier system.
Take that shit to Alberta, buddy!  ;)

For the record I am not a liberal, I have never voted liberal. I am an NDP member (sort of like voting for Ralph Nader in the US) and have been for 15 years.
I think Bill is using the term liberal differently than you. In the US liberal is synonymous with progressive or left wing, wheres we don't use it that way as much because it gets confusing with there being a Liberal Party (and as you know that's not a lefty part but instead a big tent with right and left caucuses). To make matters worse, in classical political and economic theory, liberal is closer to what would be popularly thought of as a conservative.

BYW, a New Democrat in Alberta? Talk about a lonely party (just kidding I know they have support in Edmonton).

Quit talkin' sense matt. Don't you know this is politics! :) (Well said, btw)

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edgar00

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Re: US Politics (and Transition)
« Reply #1361 on: August 19, 2009, 01:09:08 PM »



I don't really care whether you find it or not, he said it, and has said stuff just as stupid and worse than Beck. But, don't let me stop you from your liberal trolling, long live the liberal agenda after all.


Are you serious?

Yes, ignoring any and all slights against the liberal system to propagate the idea that somehow the conservative system is a million times worse is liberal trolling. Beck is a moron, so is Moore, once you come to grips with this you will be on the path to true objectivity.

Um, I said in my first post that Moore has been guilty of stretching the truth and hyperbole. However, its is beyond hilarious that you accuse me of trolling when I am using facts. Your main argument is that Moore said something he did not say. Sorry but I am not the one trolling.

For the record I am not a liberal, I have never voted liberal. I am an NDP member (sort of like voting for Ralph Nader in the US) and have been for 15 years.

The NDP are not like Nader. And the NDP ARE liberal. They just aren't Liberal. In fact, they are much more liberal than the Liberals.

Were the NDP a party in the States, it would be the most liberal thing the Americans had ever seen. In Canada, it's more like 'that party on the left that won't get elected'.
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Clovis8

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Re: US Politics (and Transition)
« Reply #1362 on: August 19, 2009, 01:10:34 PM »
Which is fine, if I were talking about Health Care. I just mean in general. They are both, more or less businesses. A government just has more means to assure that their business interests thrive.
Not exactly, FLY. In one sense you're right, since the 1980s public sectors in most Western countries have taken steps to operate in a more "businesslike" fashion in an effort to achieve a greater degree of efficiency (eg: New Public Management in Thatcher's UK, Osborne and Gaebler in the USA); essentially the whole "doing more with less" thing. With that said however, there are fundamental differences between what is expected from a public organizations as opposed to a private one. The mandate and goals of a public organization are more varied, complex, and at times contradictory, while private organizations are chiefly responsibility to its shareholders.

You're right that both require a degree of financial health, but how that financial health is assessed very much varies from public to private. Furthermore, and specifically related to your statement, a public organization can and does engage in activities where no clear profit is generated, activties that private company would enter into or would do so in a much different manner. So to say that public and private organizations are more or less businesses really ignores how different they are and the complexity of it all.

So when there is debate about something like health care, what the debate is really about is what is the best model for service delivery. And "best" is defined by how views about the market and the state are valued, a private model provides a degree of care relative to what the user can pay, while a public system assures a good baseline level for all. What's lost with the public system is market efficiency, but what's gained is greater equity, therefore there is a crucial difference between the private and public.      

Great post. I think the key is profit. In my opinion, healthcare is a right and should not be a for profit enterprise. This will obviously be a very simplistic analysis but I like to think of it like this (These are "back of the napkin" calculations at best):

US healthcare costs: 2.5 trillion
Standard business profit: ca. 20%
percent of cost which is profit: $500 million
number of people covered: 250 million
number of people which could be covered with the profit removed: 300 million (roughly 50 million more)


Clovis8

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Re: US Politics (and Transition)
« Reply #1363 on: August 19, 2009, 01:13:57 PM »

I think Bill is using the term liberal differently than you. In the US liberal is synonymous with progressive or left wing, wheres we don't use it that way as much because it gets confusing with there being a Liberal Party (and as you know that's not a lefty part but instead a big tent with right and left caucuses). To make matters worse, in classical political and economic theory, liberal is closer to what would be popularly thought of as a conservative.

BYW, a New Democrat in Alberta? Talk about a lonely party (just kidding I know they have support in Edmonton).


The Nader analogy is not a great one I agree. I was just trying to illustrate the "third party" status of the two. Yes the NDP would be more liberal (in the progressive sense) than the US has ever seen.

FroHam X

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Re: US Politics (and Transition)
« Reply #1364 on: August 19, 2009, 01:16:38 PM »



I don't really care whether you find it or not, he said it, and has said stuff just as stupid and worse than Beck. But, don't let me stop you from your liberal trolling, long live the liberal agenda after all.


Are you serious?

Yes, ignoring any and all slights against the liberal system to propagate the idea that somehow the conservative system is a million times worse is liberal trolling. Beck is a moron, so is Moore, once you come to grips with this you will be on the path to true objectivity.

Um, I said in my first post that Moore has been guilty of stretching the truth and hyperbole. However, its is beyond hilarious that you accuse me of trolling when I am using facts. Your main argument is that Moore said something he did not say. Sorry but I am not the one trolling.

For the record I am not a liberal, I have never voted liberal. I am an NDP member (sort of like voting for Ralph Nader in the US) and have been for 15 years.

The NDP are not like Nader. And the NDP ARE liberal. They just aren't Liberal. In fact, they are much more liberal than the Liberals.

Were the NDP a party in the States, it would be the most liberal thing the Americans had ever seen. In Canada, it's more like 'that party on the left that won't get elected'.

LOL. So true. They never will. Jack Layton is a douche.



I think Bill is using the term liberal differently than you. In the US liberal is synonymous with progressive or left wing, wheres we don't use it that way as much because it gets confusing with there being a Liberal Party (and as you know that's not a lefty part but instead a big tent with right and left caucuses). To make matters worse, in classical political and economic theory, liberal is closer to what would be popularly thought of as a conservative.

BYW, a New Democrat in Alberta? Talk about a lonely party (just kidding I know they have support in Edmonton).


The Nader analogy is not a great one I agree. I was just trying to illustrate the "third party" status of the two. Yes the NDP would be more liberal (in the progressive sense) than the US has ever seen.

And the NDP aren't actually the third party. They're fourth. Don't forget the Bloc.
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mañana

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Re: US Politics (and Transition)
« Reply #1365 on: August 19, 2009, 01:18:06 PM »
Were the NDP a party in the States, it would be the most liberal thing the Americans had ever seen. In Canada, it's more like 'that party on the left that won't get elected'.
Stop using the word liberal that way, lefties aren't liberals!

In Canada, it's more like 'that party on the left that won't get elected'.
They get elected provincially and have defined the federal agenda in Liberal minority situations. Don't dismiss that edgar. But I digress, I'm now not following the title of this thread.  

Great post. I think the key is profit. In my opinion, healthcare is a right and should not be a for profit enterprise.
I agree with your position, but I'm often hesitant to make the case about rights. I'd argue that good shelter is also a basic human right, but with that said there is little support for state intervention into the housing market beyond what already exists. I think you can convince more opponents by making an economic argument, which is what you were more of less doing with your "napkin calculations" in favour (for public health and housing supports); you gotta speak the language of your opposition if you want to move forward.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 01:21:50 PM by matt the movie watcher »
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FroHam X

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Re: US Politics (and Transition)
« Reply #1366 on: August 19, 2009, 01:20:27 PM »
Except that there is help for finding shelter. The problem is that people need healthcare and often cannot get it. Insurance companies help, but also harm.
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mañana

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Re: US Politics (and Transition)
« Reply #1367 on: August 19, 2009, 01:24:38 PM »
Except that there is help for finding shelter. The problem is that people need healthcare and often cannot get it. Insurance companies help, but also harm.
There's limited help, Canada and US rank at the bottom of G7 countries in terms of housing intervention. And I think we're in agreement about health care for the most part, I just mentioned housing as an example of how the rights augment, in practice, only goes so far.   
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FroHam X

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Re: US Politics (and Transition)
« Reply #1368 on: August 19, 2009, 01:25:42 PM »
Except that there is help for finding shelter. The problem is that people need healthcare and often cannot get it. Insurance companies help, but also harm.
There's limited help, Canada and US rank at the bottom of G7 countries in terms of housing intervention. And I think we're in agreement about health care for the most part, I just mentioned housing as an example of how the rights augment, in practice, only goes so far.   

Well. In a perfect world we'd all be communist ;)
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smirnoff

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Re: US Politics (and Transition)
« Reply #1369 on: August 19, 2009, 01:42:02 PM »
LOL. So true. They never will. Jack Layton is a douche.

You're crazy! I wish he would switch parties so I could vote for him. The guy is a natural. So much better than that weaselly Harper.

This guy is our PM... I mean come on :( ;)


This guy has a mustache. Done deal.