Author Topic: Politics  (Read 231332 times)

Beavermoose

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Re: Politics
« Reply #6340 on: February 20, 2020, 06:02:46 AM »
If you donít get a majority of delegates, you donít have anything to get stolen. The convention works like a runoff or ranked choice voting...gotta get delegates off non-viable candidates and get a majority to win.

Which is looking like it might happen.

etdoesgood

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Re: Politics
« Reply #6341 on: February 20, 2020, 11:17:07 AM »
etdoesgood: The bully pulpit theory is that the President can use his public position to raise popular support for his priorities and push Congress to act. It is more than just setting the topic for debate. The reality is when a President publicizes an agenda, it makes partisans dig in and makes it less likely Congress will act. This is as true for Trump as it was for Obama.

No, there is no such specific and agreed upon definition as that. The bully pulpit is the president's (or any major leader's) elevated platform to speak out or set an agenda. It generally has to do with swaying public opinion. Trump uses it to galvanize his base, a base his fellow Republicans need to keep their positions. The wall, tarrifs, anti-free trade policies, friendliness with Putin, these weren't exactly Republican talking points until he started publicly blasting away. Even before presidency, he used his position of influence with the media to start the birther conspiracy theory that got the POTUS to show his birth certificate. I would hope that a President Sanders (or President Anyone) would use it to bring a swell of support for Medicare for All or College Debt Forgiveness to states where Democratic senators are waffling and make his case, pressure them to get on board. Get that 50-50 vote and let the vice cast the tie-breaker in a post-filibuster world. It may be a long-shot, but we can't afford to keep kicking all these cans down the road.
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Will

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Re: Politics
« Reply #6342 on: February 20, 2020, 01:50:15 PM »
I think shock might win out on TikTok and many other platforms.

Had students last year use the Soviet flag as their Google avatar/picture last year, and it kind of unnerved me. Talked to them about it, they knew nothing about the Soviet Union, Stalin, Cold War, etc.

Look at it this way: their early embrace of communist symbols means that their parents (mostly X-generation but probably a few millennials) no longer strongly hold to the anti-Soviet propaganda that their own GG/Boomer parents were raised on. It's a good thing, meaning that historians can finally start illustrating how the Cold War was used by the Republicans as a political marketing tool to infringe on labor rights, reduce taxes on the super-rich, and  make the word "socialism" a universally unnerving word.

FLYmeatwad

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Re: Politics
« Reply #6343 on: February 20, 2020, 08:40:21 PM »
And how the Cold War served as a basis for some great MGS lore.

At this point, I feel like Klobuchar is my dark horse to get the nomination, assuming Biden completely falls off by then and she has the funds to stick it out to convention. She plays the party line, isn't 70, and doesn't have as many direct lines of attack as the other moderates. At this point one assumes Sanders heads in with a delegate lead, so it really depends if the DNC lay down and go full Trump with him or want to stop him at any cost.

etdoesgood

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Re: Politics
« Reply #6344 on: February 20, 2020, 11:17:53 PM »
The Soviet flag will always be a symbol of totalitarianism, oppression, and purges for people who seek freedom and justice on the most fundamental levels. I understand the red scare was weaponized by conservatives/Republicans against their adversaries to the degradation of our country, something I obviously think people need to learn. I don't think we have to trade one understanding for the other.
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Will

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Re: Politics
« Reply #6345 on: February 21, 2020, 01:13:53 PM »
The Soviet flag will always be a symbol of totalitarianism, oppression, and purges for people who seek freedom and justice on the most fundamental levels. I understand the red scare was weaponized by conservatives/Republicans against their adversaries to the degradation of our country, something I obviously think people need to learn. I don't think we have to trade one understanding for the other.

Are you talking about the Soviet flag? Or the American one? Because this can easily be described for the bulk of American history, especially if you're not a white person.

Honestly, if you fully consider the pros of the Soviet Union and the cons of the American Empire, the difference becomes infinitesimal. I've talked to people who left countries that were previously part of the USSR to come to the US. They said it only truly became unlivable once it collapsed which wouldn't have happened if the West didn't treat the USSR like an existential threat.

jdc

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Re: Politics
« Reply #6346 on: February 21, 2020, 05:34:16 PM »
Iím likely older than you, but Iíve known a reasonable amount of people that left either Russia or some of the former republics before the collapse and would have a very different opinion about what it is like.  It was livable maybe in a literal sense but they certainly wouldnít think the two systems were compatible.  My Flat mate left the Georgian republic under Soviet rule but eventually returned afterwards.  At least for those outside of the Russia territory, they certainly had no desire that there still be the USSR today.

I wonder how you feel about the HK protestors or should China exert their full control? This can always be a much more sensitive topic in my household, be it HK, Taiwan or Tibet. 


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etdoesgood

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Re: Politics
« Reply #6347 on: February 21, 2020, 06:00:50 PM »
Started this before jdc's post, posting after. The point on Hong Kong is well-taken.
The Soviet flag will always be a symbol of totalitarianism, oppression, and purges for people who seek freedom and justice on the most fundamental levels. I understand the red scare was weaponized by conservatives/Republicans against their adversaries to the degradation of our country, something I obviously think people need to learn. I don't think we have to trade one understanding for the other.

Are you talking about the Soviet flag? Or the American one? Because this can easily be described for the bulk of American history, especially if you're not a white person.

Honestly, if you fully consider the pros of the Soviet Union and the cons of the American Empire, the difference becomes infinitesimal. I've talked to people who left countries that were previously part of the USSR to come to the US. They said it only truly became unlivable once it collapsed which wouldn't have happened if the West didn't treat the USSR like an existential threat.

The United States has never been under totalitarian rule, and the Soviet Union was. Only one party was legal in the Soviet Union, the Communist Party, where in America other parties have always been legal. The United States has never had a purge of its dissidents, and the Soviet Union did, the Great Purge or Great Terror. Stalin was responsible for the death of 20 million of his own people. One-party, autocratic rule plus the killing of dissidents is oppression on a scale we haven't known since slavery (which ended here just four years after it ended in Russia). I made my statement knowing that the first two items were true of the Soviet Union and not the United States, while the third (oppression) was greater in the Soviet era (due to totalitarian rule and methods used to quell dissent) than at any point in the U.S.A. (saying a lot considering our past use of internment, Jim Crow, and of course the red scare and detention of possibly communists and communist sympathizers.), because I am aware that people try to equivocate the two when there is absolutely no comparison to be made.

Were I articulate and motivated and overall more talented, I could write a book on the ills of American imperialism and free market capitalism. The Gilded Age was a real horror show, though that was over by the rise of the Soviet Union. Overall, comparing the U.S.A. to the Soviet Union, especially in terms of overall freedom and democracy, make the U.S.A. look like a utopia in comparison.

I don't even get the point in trying to defend this comparison, when there are economic and political systems in the world right now that we can aspire to, i.e. in various Scandinavian and Western European countries, where democracy is optimal and human suffering (at least per freedom and economic equality measures) is minimal.
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FLYmeatwad

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Re: Politics
« Reply #6348 on: February 22, 2020, 04:08:34 PM »
Riveting Saturday evening TV with yet another ridiculous caucus happening.

EDIT: So strange that CNN just has Yang on to break things down now. I get why it's beneficial for both of them in theory (maybe it draws his dedicated followers, he gets to potentially maintain his new found level of notoriety), but it's weird to me each time he's there talking.

EDIT 2: Not about how Yang is perpetuating the 'Bernie is winning with 25%' narrative, especially as he's showing a pretty commanding (very early) lead today. Maybe all the votes from Amy would have went right to Pete in NH (New Hampshire) if he was the only one left, but I feel like there are intangible factors for each candidate (theoretically, anyway) that make it a little more complex than moderate goes to moderate, moderate votes totaled more than Sanders, This Is How moderate Wins.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 04:24:27 PM by FLYmeatwad »

Will

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Re: Politics
« Reply #6349 on: February 23, 2020, 03:33:51 PM »
Started this before jdc's post, posting after. The point on Hong Kong is well-taken.
The Soviet flag will always be a symbol of totalitarianism, oppression, and purges for people who seek freedom and justice on the most fundamental levels. I understand the red scare was weaponized by conservatives/Republicans against their adversaries to the degradation of our country, something I obviously think people need to learn. I don't think we have to trade one understanding for the other.

Are you talking about the Soviet flag? Or the American one? Because this can easily be described for the bulk of American history, especially if you're not a white person.

Honestly, if you fully consider the pros of the Soviet Union and the cons of the American Empire, the difference becomes infinitesimal. I've talked to people who left countries that were previously part of the USSR to come to the US. They said it only truly became unlivable once it collapsed which wouldn't have happened if the West didn't treat the USSR like an existential threat.

The United States has never been under totalitarian rule, and the Soviet Union was. Only one party was legal in the Soviet Union, the Communist Party, where in America other parties have always been legal. The United States has never had a purge of its dissidents, and the Soviet Union did, the Great Purge or Great Terror. Stalin was responsible for the death of 20 million of his own people. One-party, autocratic rule plus the killing of dissidents is oppression on a scale we haven't known since slavery (which ended here just four years after it ended in Russia). I made my statement knowing that the first two items were true of the Soviet Union and not the United States, while the third (oppression) was greater in the Soviet era (due to totalitarian rule and methods used to quell dissent) than at any point in the U.S.A. (saying a lot considering our past use of internment, Jim Crow, and of course the red scare and detention of possibly communists and communist sympathizers.), because I am aware that people try to equivocate the two when there is absolutely no comparison to be made.

Were I articulate and motivated and overall more talented, I could write a book on the ills of American imperialism and free market capitalism. The Gilded Age was a real horror show, though that was over by the rise of the Soviet Union. Overall, comparing the U.S.A. to the Soviet Union, especially in terms of overall freedom and democracy, make the U.S.A. look like a utopia in comparison.

I don't even get the point in trying to defend this comparison, when there are economic and political systems in the world right now that we can aspire to, i.e. in various Scandinavian and Western European countries, where democracy is optimal and human suffering (at least per freedom and economic equality measures) is minimal.

Honestly can't believe you would call the US never totalitarian when Jim Crow extended into the prison system and more than half of the country didn't have political rights until the 20th Century.

That said,

I don't think this conversation would proceed in a productive way if I were to truly respond to every single point. I feel like you are understating the impact of many crimes against humanity the US casually committed in the twentieth century so I think it would just serve as a waste of time for both of us to review them.