Author Topic: Politics  (Read 511102 times)

oneaprilday

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #360 on: September 04, 2008, 12:44:49 PM »
I find the way the media is delving into her family life disturbing and out of bounds. Her piccadillos as mayor are fair game (hiring a lobbyist dedicated to acquiring congressional earmarks) but her pregnant kid is not.

I think the issues as both sides view them are incendiary enough without dragging a pregnant teenager into it. Instead of listening to what one sides says the other side is going to do - why not listen to what each candidate says?

It is indeed disturbing, and the viciousness of it makes me really sad. I can't imagine what her daughter must be feeling.


The idea is to relieve the pressure for people to move up in economic class not to maintain the status quo. Financial equality should be the goal.

I'm most definitely for relieving pressure on those who need it most with the intent of opening doors for them. I'm wondering about your financial equality statement, Marty. Is that really what you want? I'm not attacking the statement or anything; I'm really just curious.


I understand and maybe this is a rare lucid moment for me - but in the end - such actions only have the effect of energizing your side and causing a backlash from the other. You won't gain any converts by being so...unseemly...no matter how appropriate those comments seem to you. I don't need to convince my own team - I want to convince the other side. Otherwise it's just a grown-up game of mudslinging.

Taking the high road, staying above the fray - that's the right path and it's hard for me as I get quite passionate about politics - but it's the only way you win converts. ;)

Nicely put, Marty.

St. Martin the Bald

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #361 on: September 04, 2008, 01:26:46 PM »
OAD - On financial equality - smacks of socialism doesn't it?

In a system like ours where money literally talks, the balance of power has shifted irrevocably. This is no longer a government of the people, for the people or by the people - it's for lobbyists/special interests with the deep pockets. That's why we have privatized our national defense - that's why we have stalled in offering government incentives for alternative energy programs/vehicles in spite of the fact that we know oil is a finite energy source that is primarily controlled by nations not friendly to us - that's why we let insurance companies literally make healthcare decisions for us instead of our doctors. All of those groups have big money and are pouring it into Washington and our state/local governments.
Nobody is going to turn away that money and it's foolish to think so - they may make token legislative moves but there will always be loopholes to exploit.
It's human nature.
It's greed.
So if we can't get rid of the special interest money then it falls upon our government/leaders to level the playing field because the needs of the few are over riding the needs of the many.  I am not advocating hand out but rather a hand up - loans, education, jobs. Sure there will always be a few who abuse the system but you already have that on the top end. For the most part they are hit with a slap on the wrist and a sigh: "boys will be boys"...
Can you blame those further down the ladder trying to get their piece of the pie as well?
Allowed to run unchecked - the system is creating the situation where we have the haves controlling the have nots through financial leverage. Basic compassion and altruism are rare in the corporate world where all decisons are based on the bottom line - so if there is no profit in it - why help society? Self interest is the pervading doctrine.

With that in mind - we need deliberate government programs designed to help rectify that injustice and it is an injustice. Someone needs to take up the fight for me, for my family because so far, the past 8 yrs have only pushed us further down the ladder - corporations take priority, banks, private contractors not normal people.
Laissez faire, unchecked free markets, trickle down economics, ownership society - these are all terms that encourage exploitation of the poor by the rich - IMHO of course.
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jbissell

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #362 on: September 04, 2008, 01:50:52 PM »
I'm with the bald guy on this one.

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #363 on: September 04, 2008, 02:34:56 PM »
Alright. Consider me convinced. Can I still laugh at the jokes about her?
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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #364 on: September 04, 2008, 02:47:47 PM »
This is of course the fundamental difference in our thinking.  Justice is equity not equality.  I am with you though on seeking to take the money out of the system. Regulations should be in place so that market forces are always maintained in precarious balance where-in the blind scales of justice can lean either way based on popular support instead of loaded springs.  

The concept of "the corporation" is the second greatest invention in human history (Tivo being the first ;D) as it allows for the extension of causes and ideas and the capitol to fulfill those aims beyond the lifespan of us mere mortals.  Doctors are often quite as bad as Insurance Companies when it comes to maintaining the bottom line - but that line is a personal one whereas a corporation's is its shareholders.  This is why it is so strange that someone with the means to do so would choose not to participate in the stock market and not only share in the wealth but also in the defining of direction and missions of that corporation.  Yes, it has been made deliberately confusing over the years to do so through the greed of those who seek more power & education in this particular area is sorely needed to be imparted to every citizen.

Instead of buying a Hummer, buy a sedan and a couple hundred shares of GM.  Conserve oil but use those extra funds to snatch up the record profits of Exxon.  When a more diverse cross section of people have a say in the way the special interests are run then they will cease being so special.

oneaprilday

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #365 on: September 04, 2008, 03:28:09 PM »
OAD - On financial equality - smacks of socialism doesn't it?

 :) I thought you might wonder if I was freaking out about that. But no, I'm not afraid of socialism, I was really just curious about exactly what you meant and, I suppose, how you see it working.

I agree that big companies and corporations have been allowed to oppress the poor and I agree that somehow those who are poor and oppressed should be protected and helped. I guess I'm just not sure that absolute financial equality is the answer and I'm not sure how that would even be possible at the practical level. I guess I do react a little against tax increases for those with an income of $250,000+, mostly because I personally know many families in that bracket - they are mostly hard-working farmers (dairy farm and berry farms in this area surrounding, mostly north of, Bellingham) - many of them came over from Holland with nothing (and some very close friends of our from Switzerland) and worked to make a better life for themselves and their children and they have. They've become successful and their children are comfortable (and also hard-working - many of the guys I went to high school with always had farm work to do before anything else - it was just their life). But you would not look at these families and say they are wealthy (even if they fall in that 250K bracket) nor that they are hard-nosed and unsympathetic towards people who have less than they do - the ones I know give much of their income to community projects and charities and they are incredibly generous on a personal level. Anyway, my reaction is just personal on the level of my experience (and therefore limited, of course) and I suppose I just worry about people like these that I know being penalized, for all their work, past and current, along with big greedy corporations - in the interest of trying to make everyone financially equal. I don't know - I guess I just feel these people have earned the level of comfort they've achieved.

I guess I'm with Keith in that I would like to talk about justice rather than equality.


St. Martin the Bald

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #366 on: September 04, 2008, 08:50:42 PM »
I think I mention righting an injustice in my diatribe.

I like to think we are sympatico and just quibbling over terms, By equality, I mean it's time for our government to take up the battle against poverty. This involves more than just handing out money, it means raising awareness. It means a uniform educational system that pays teachers what their worth but also weeds out teachers who who are not flexible and/or take into account their students socio-economic background and tailor their lessons accordingly. It's time to do away with standardized tests that reward students who test well but punish those who don't even though they might actually know the material. My brother was one of those kids - he was not stupid but he did not take those tests well and was subjected to LD classes - ridiculous. I see my girlfriend's son put through the same garbage.

Sorry - off topic for a sec...

I don't think $250,000 puts your friends in the top 5% but I think their 250K trumps my 50K and so they should be prepared to pay more taxes - it's a simple rule - the more money you make, the more you pay but yet it seems as though the more you make, the easier it is for you to afford a competent tax lawyer who will provide you will some loopholes to avoid this burden. This only becomes more glaringly apparent as we creep up the financial brackets.
And here is the irony of this system: these people who are hard at work avoiding taxes (which help fund our government and keep it operational) are the ones with the loudest voices, the most pull in the system, as we have agreed that those with most money have a disproportionate say in the way this country is run. OAD - this is not aimed at your friends and in no way am I trying to imply anything negative. What I am saying is that the system helps the rich/well off to avoid paying taxes but yet gives them the loudest voice in our government. There is something inherently wrong with that and if there is a candidate that even implies the he/she might change this - then I am willing to give them a chance because I know where the other path leads.
In my mind - John McCain is that other path. He might present himself as maverick but he has been a cog in that same system for some time now and for him to have any success in it he must be quite comfortable with it's ways. I'll take an outsider who is an idealist (and with your perceived lack of experience) over someone who has been in bed with the devil and over the past 2 years only gotten cozier with him. Maybe McCain has snuggled up with the extreme right just to get elected as Keith implied, or maybe he just sees this as his last chance for the top job and he is willing to sell himself and his ideals (torture anyone) out. All you have is your word, honor and integrity - a relationship with an entire electorate is the same as one other person. You should not be given a pass for compromising the ideals that you have held onto for so long - it says something about your character and that's all I need to know.
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oneaprilday

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #367 on: September 04, 2008, 09:50:18 PM »
I think I mention righting an injustice in my diatribe.

I like to think we are sympatico and just quibbling over terms, By equality, I mean it's time for our government to take up the battle against poverty. This involves more than just handing out money, it means raising awareness. It means a uniform educational system that pays teachers what their worth but also weeds out teachers who who are not flexible and/or take into account their students socio-economic background and tailor their lessons accordingly. It's time to do away with standardized tests that reward students who test well but punish those who don't even though they might actually know the material. My brother was one of those kids - he was not stupid but he did not take those tests well and was subjected to LD classes - ridiculous. I see my girlfriend's son put through the same garbage.

Sorry I overlooked the injustice reference and thanks for clarifying; I think you're right in terms of our being sympatico - I do agree with all of the above.

As to the tax stuff, thanks for taking the time to expand on your thoughts - you've given me some good stuff to mull over. It's still hard for me to see that either candidate is offering a solution, but I definitely see more clearly now where you're coming from.



St. Martin the Bald

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #368 on: September 05, 2008, 09:10:52 AM »
McCain's speech last night is indicative of his willingness to change his spots.
For months he has been riding on GWB's coattails energizing the base of the GOP now - *POOF!* - he's the old maverick John McCain, reaching out across the aisle, scolding his party for "allowing Washington to change them..." ???

Who will he be if he's elected?
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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #369 on: September 05, 2008, 09:28:03 AM »
An eye-opening podcast is the 8-27-08 Fresh Air ep, "Lobbying for the Presidency". 

http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=13&prgDate=8-27-2008


James Thurber of American University who worked with McCain and Obama on the lobbying reform bill reviews the lobbyists' role in each campaign.

We should all hear it and keep the info in mind when voting.
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