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Author Topic: Politics  (Read 511110 times)

ˇKeith!

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #720 on: October 19, 2008, 10:59:58 PM »
I completely agree with you on that EXCEPT that 1) a McCain admin would not be just republicans and 2) bush burned through the NeoCons there are quite a few wings of the Rep party (Rockefeller Republicans, Libertarians, Fiscal conservatives, moderates, hell even the Log Cabin kids given his obvious Atheist leanings) that (would have) felt very safe with McCain though the campaign likely has turned quite a few of even them off.

There are more groups and bits and pieces of each party available than you may realize - there have to be as we only have two of 'em.  Bush's leadership posts were mostly made up of social conservatives and neocons who have very distinct world views that don't represent the views of these other factions within the GOP - much like the discussion we had about the Dems and Lieberman a few days ago.  

That said (and as I said in response to your first post) I likely not vote for either the Rep or Dem candidate this time round and instead waste my vote on some loony 3rd party no chance hack (sarcasm).  Frankly they both piss me off policy wise.

Clovis8

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #721 on: October 19, 2008, 11:04:34 PM »
I completely agree with you on that EXCEPT that 1) a McCain admin would not be just republicans and 2) bush burned through the NeoCons there are quite a few wings of the Rep party (Rockefeller Republicans, Libertarians, Fiscal conservatives, moderates, hell even the Log Cabin kids given his obvious Atheist leanings) that (would have) felt very safe with McCain though the campaign likely has turned quite a few of even them off.

There are more groups and bits and pieces of each party available than you may realize - there have to be as we only have two of 'em.  Bush's leadership posts were mostly made up of social conservatives and neocons who have very distinct world views that don't represent the views of these other factions within the GOP - much like the discussion we had about the Dems and Lieberman a few days ago. 

That said (and as I said in response to your first post) I likely not vote for either the Rep or Dem candidate this time round and instead waste my vote on some loony 3rd party no chance hack (sarcasm).  Frankly they both piss me off policy wise.

These parts of the party do not exist anymore. I wish they did. I actually consider myself a small C conservative libertarian. All positions of power in the current republican party are filled by the neocons. It will be VERY hard for Mcain to change that.

One more reason to not vote republican.....




ˇKeith!

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #722 on: October 19, 2008, 11:43:01 PM »
yeah - I am a big fan of Bill from a fiscal perspective. But you also have to take into consideration that bush 1 had a democratic congress and that clinton had a republican one for the majority of his time.  also that bush 1 had a recession while clinton had a boom, high tide raises all ships. 

Of course the president can influence fiscal policy thru the treasury dept but its congress that actually controls spending and thus the surplus and defect of the budget.  Again those were different Republicans.  I don't believe big government conservatism is in any way sound but when Gingrich/Dole and Clinton went to war to essentially claim victory over the same thing, a balanced budget agreement in 1996 it was a win/win for this country.  Though I agree with certain aspects of Keynesian economics (given that this country hasn't run a deficit surplus since the Jackson administration) I don't think he had these levels of deficit spending in mind when he made his arguments - especially the amount of cash that isn't even accounted for in the figures on that chart or the calculator in NYC.  I also don't think its right as more and more of that debt is being gobbled up by non-americans,  one will never call in a debt on ones self, but i don't doubt someone else would if it suited their purposes. 

skjerva

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #723 on: October 20, 2008, 10:05:51 AM »
thanks for the reminder of why i don't like visiting this thread :p
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St. Martin the Bald

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #724 on: October 20, 2008, 10:12:24 AM »
Clovis - I understand your frustration but I also know that it wasn't only the GOP that got us into this financial mess. Clinton started the deregulation of the banking industry which ulitmately led us to this point. Yes - the GOP could have reigned in the madness as anyone with a brain could have saw where this was heading  several years back. In fact as a Realtor - I did notice how loose families were with their borrowing, fudging information so they could leverage themselves the maximum amount of money to buy a house, putting themselves into 80/20 ARMS, ARM's, fized mortgages w/o reading the fine print - it was a frenzy that can equally be blamed on the lenders and borrowers. A democratic congress could have checked FREDDIE MAC and FANNY MAE a could of yrs back. The GOP congress could have not allowed leveraging assets at the ratios that THEY did. Allan Greenspan most certainly saw this coming and assumed/hoped he would have been out of the public eye before it all caught up with him.
HUBRIS more than anything - by either party, by the banks, by the lenders led to this. This idea that there is such a thing as a friendly free market that magically moves along and is beneficial to anyone who competes in it is ridiculous - w/o strict oversight - all you get w/o regulation is the wealthy corporations and big business setting rules and buying influence. Not everything in this capitalist society (so-called) should be available for purchase. People, business wants deregulation up until the market tanks THEN they want the government to bail them out - sounds fishy to me.
People pride themselves on this outmoded, outdated, cold war philosophy of us against the commies/socialists but don't even realize that they are turning to those same principles when they need a handout and when their own precious ideals have put their backs to the wall. I hear this at all levels of society - not just the upper crust. It's frustrating when people will defend a way of living when it doesn't even include them, nor does it ever plan to. For this free-market to continue to exist, we will always need the haves (them) and the have-nots (us). It's this idea that someday they will be able to have that causes poor angry people to defend the rights of the wealthy and helps strengthen the GOP position and continue us down the path to financial ruin.
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Wowser

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #725 on: October 20, 2008, 10:53:05 AM »
Can I just speak as an outsider? Many, generally right-leaning American voters think the rest of the world should 'keep their noses out' of the US's business when it comes to their elections (as seen by the backlash against that recent 'If The Rest of the World Could Vote' website. But, bloody hell, it's not like the US is some isolated, obscure country somewhere - of course it's in the worlds' interest who becomes president of the United States.


I do despair sometimes, and thankfully Stephen Fry's recent (and wonderful) series 'In America' has helped restore my faith in what is a fantastic country. That and the weekend's Obama gains :)

ˇKeith!

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #726 on: October 20, 2008, 11:00:18 AM »
I do despair sometimes, and thankfully Stephen Fry's recent (and wonderful) series 'In America' has helped restore my faith in what is a fantastic country. That and the weekend's Obama gains :)

Did that cancel out the fact that Chihuahua spent two weeks at #1? ;)

FroHam X

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #727 on: October 20, 2008, 11:06:38 AM »
I do despair sometimes, and thankfully Stephen Fry's recent (and wonderful) series 'In America' has helped restore my faith in what is a fantastic country. That and the weekend's Obama gains :)

Did that cancel out the fact that Chihuahua spent two weeks at #1? ;)

You, sir, seem to be implying that Chihuahua spending two weeks at #1 was a bad thing.
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ˇKeith!

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #728 on: October 20, 2008, 12:07:55 PM »
I do despair sometimes, and thankfully Stephen Fry's recent (and wonderful) series 'In America' has helped restore my faith in what is a fantastic country. That and the weekend's Obama gains :)

Did that cancel out the fact that Chihuahua spent two weeks at #1? ;)

You, sir, seem to be implying that Chihuahua spending two weeks at #1 was a bad thing.

Not from my perspective - but this being a political thread I guess its possible that everyone isn't as enlightened as myself.

FroHam X

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Re: US Elections 2008 Edition
« Reply #729 on: October 20, 2008, 12:55:05 PM »
I do despair sometimes, and thankfully Stephen Fry's recent (and wonderful) series 'In America' has helped restore my faith in what is a fantastic country. That and the weekend's Obama gains :)

Did that cancel out the fact that Chihuahua spent two weeks at #1? ;)

You, sir, seem to be implying that Chihuahua spending two weeks at #1 was a bad thing.

Not from my perspective - but this being a political thread I guess its possible that everyone isn't as enlightened as myself.

Few are. I really wish you'd go back to your previous avatar. It was so perfect. The way the chihuahua sort of peek out of the avatar cut-off was beautiful.
"We didn't clean the hamster's cage, the hamster's cage cleaned us!"

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