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Author Topic: Alternative Voting Filmspots 2007 - Cast your Official Unofficial Ballot NOW  (Read 12607 times)

pixote

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I don't think I'll be voting if only because if I've invested all this time in the wrong ballot, I don't really want to know. ;)

pixote
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skjerva

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The part of this system that scares me (and one of the reasons we didn't use it for the Filmspots) is that casting a ballot becomes equivalent to making a wager in Final Jeopardy.  Let's say the race for Best Picture comes down to our two ballots, and Atonement and No Country for Old Men are tied for first.  And let's say that I think No Country is an A+ film and Atonement a C-, but you're practically the opposite, thinking Atonement is an A+ film and No Country is a C+.  I fill out my ballot honestly, giving No Country a 10 an Atonement a 4.  But you, feeling the need to act as a corrective to how overrated you perceive the Coen Brothers to be, give No Country a 0 on your ballot and Atonement a 10.  As a result, Atonement wins Best Picture, even though in truth the group preference was for No Country.  But you were able to game the system and, in a sense, disenfranchise me.

pixote

but i did the same thing with my Official ballot - if i knew/figured my nominee would not win and figured it would be between A and B i cast my vote for my Lesser of Two Evils candidate - this happens all the time in voting.

i reckon there are other arguments that could be made, but that one seems the easiest :)
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skjerva

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I don't think I'll be voting if only because if I've invested all this time in the wrong ballot, I don't really want to know. ;)

pixote

are you really not going to vote an alternative ballot?  c'mon, pretty please.
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pixote

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but i did the same thing with my Official ballot - if i knew/figured my nominee would not win and figured it would be between A and B i cast my vote for my Lesser of Two Evils candidate - this happens all the time in voting.

That's one reason why we went with a system that attempts to limit that kind of ballot gaming, in terms of the number of determinations a voter needs to make (30 vs. 158) and the connotations thereof.  It might not hold up to close analysis, but instinctually I am more comfortable with a false positive choice (the assertion of preference between the lesser of two evils) than a false negative choice (undervaluation).  It might just be semantics, but I can live with that.

When the Filmspots were over, I had planned to see if you were still interested in comparing voting systems and, if so, suggest that you ask people to cast weighted preference votes in the five categories that were most closely contested on the official ballots.  This, I think, would have lessened the possible confusion about the relationship of your 'official unofficial' ballot to the Filmspots.  I also think it would have been less overwhelming for people to vote (again) in just a handful of categories rather than in all thirty.  But you beat me to the punch.

sorry - you are averaging.  right?  slightly more representative than simple plurality though not as representative as weighted preference.

Sounds like you've already arrived at your conclusion. ;)

By the way, votes on the Filmspots ballot are also weighted based on how informed a choice the voter is making in a given category.  Elitist?  Meritocratic?  I'll leave that for you and sdedalus to hash out.

pixote
« Last Edit: February 16, 2008, 03:37:13 PM by pixote »
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choatime

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Do we have any superdelegates? 

How is the fact that there is the option of not expressing an opinion (that is, not giving a vote to something you haven't seen) taken into account?  For example, who wins based on these three ballots?

Ballot 1
9  Atonement
9  Juno
7  No Country for Old Men
  Ratatouille
There Will Be Blood
10  Zodiac

Ballot 2
9  Atonement
9  Juno
10  No Country for Old Men
  Ratatouille
There Will Be Blood
8  Zodiac

Ballot 3
9  Atonement
Juno
10 No Country for Old Men
  Ratatouille
10 There Will Be Blood
  Zodiac


skjerva

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Do we have any superdelegates? 

How is the fact that there is the option of not expressing an opinion (that is, not giving a vote to something you haven't seen) taken into account?  For example, who wins based on these three ballots?

Ballot 1
9  Atonement
9  Juno
7  No Country for Old Men
  Ratatouille
There Will Be Blood
10  Zodiac

Ballot 2
9  Atonement
9  Juno
10  No Country for Old Men
  Ratatouille
There Will Be Blood
8  Zodiac

Ballot 3
9  Atonement
Juno
10 No Country for Old Men
  Ratatouille
10 There Will Be Blood
  Zodiac



the plan is to offer two results - using this alternative ballot isn't about a winner per se, but in illustrating how different ways of voting and counting produce different results, which i think is a worthwhile thing to think about :)  From the ballots you offer, it seems you know where this is heading.

if we average the totals from all ballots cast Atonement and No Country for Old Men have the highest averages. 

if we average all scores There Will be Blood has the highest average. 

it is unclear what the Filmspots would show since Ballot 3 is not allowed to like No Country and Zodiac in equal measure, but that winner would likely include NC, Z, and TWBB in some combination.

seeing that each of the two ballots could be tabulated in two obvious ways each, thus producing four potential winners, seems pretty interesting to me :)
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skjerva

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When the Filmspots were over, I had planned to see if you were still interested in comparing voting systems and, if so, suggest that you ask people to cast weighted preference votes in the five categories that were most closely contested on the official ballots.  This, I think, would have lessened the possible confusion about the relationship of your 'official unofficial' ballot to the Filmspots.  I also think it would have been less overwhelming for people to vote (again) in just a handful of categories rather than in all thirty.  But you beat me to the punch.


I'm game for that.  Wanna try?

Though that does bring up two obvious issues.  First, if the Filmspot results are announced before the weighted preference ballots are cast, it might increase the chances of gaming by inspiring pronounced preferences.  Second, by using weighted preference only on the close contests distorts the grand differences of preference the different systems will reveal.

in the past, in the after school program i teach, we have had the students vote for "leaders of the week" by using different voting systems side-by-side.  it is always interesting to see how the different systems produce different results, which sometimes better illuminates what values are carrying the most importance.  as the students become more comfortable with all the systems and learn to game, and understand how others are gaming, everyone basically plays the same games.  great fun and great reality check.

anyway, if you (any you, but perhaps mostly pix and basil) are interested in comparing systems, maybe just have folks do the weighted preference voting in a few of the marquee categories.  thoughts?
But I wish the public could, in the midst of its pleasures, see how blatantly it is being spoon-fed, and ask for slightly better dreams. 
                        - Iris Barry from "The Public's Pleasure" (1926)

Junior

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I voted cuz:

1. I was bored
2. It's kinda fun
3. I wanted to force my opinion on others even more than I already have.

I don't remember my Filmspot votes, however. So I don't know if that will screw it up.
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skjerva

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nothing can get screwed up, the whole idea is fun (with a sprinkle of voting system education tossed in ;) )!
But I wish the public could, in the midst of its pleasures, see how blatantly it is being spoon-fed, and ask for slightly better dreams. 
                        - Iris Barry from "The Public's Pleasure" (1926)

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I do like the idea of comparing the contested categories. It's much more efficient.
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