Author Topic: Inglourious Basterds  (Read 61545 times)

Osprey

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Re: Inglourious Basterds
« Reply #270 on: September 15, 2009, 09:17:54 AM »
Not even remotely similar.

Remember, Shoshonna doesn't just kill a bunch of random Nazis.  It's the Nazi high command, and it'd be pretty hard to feel sorry for them.


in the same way it would be hard to feel sorry for killing W, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and that circle of fools, right?

skjerva

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Re: Inglourious Basterds
« Reply #271 on: September 15, 2009, 09:32:27 AM »
Not even remotely similar.

Remember, Shoshonna doesn't just kill a bunch of random Nazis.  It's the Nazi high command, and it'd be pretty hard to feel sorry for them.


in the same way it would be hard to feel sorry for killing W, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and that circle of fools, right?

why not?  i think T sets it up that way, the way the first basterds scene - really, the first lines delivered by Aldo - is a parroting of the hate-speech we get from Hitler&co.  really obvious.  funny we have two threads where you have missed the literal text of the film - not even subtext  :D  who are you?  :-*
But I wish the public could, in the midst of its pleasures, see how blatantly it is being spoon-fed, and ask for slightly better dreams. 
                        - Iris Barry from "The Public's Pleasure" (1926)

FroHam X

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Re: Inglourious Basterds
« Reply #272 on: September 15, 2009, 09:43:49 AM »
Remember, Shoshonna doesn't just kill a bunch of random Nazis.  It's the Nazi high command, and it'd be pretty hard to feel sorry for them.


in the same way it would be hard to feel sorry for killing W, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and that circle of fools, right?

Those guys did some bad things, and a lot of people have died, but they didn't exactly set out to complete wipe out the existence of a whole race or races of people.


I do believe the intent there, but I don't think it's fair to say both groups were equally abhorrent.

And really this is the point. We are supposed to on some level enjoy the fact that brutal revenge is taking place, because the people being killed really are just that terrible. But we are also left to question the idea that we would enjoy seeing anybody so brutally massacred, no matter who they are or what they've done.

It reminds me of Adolf Eichmann's execution in Israel. There has never been a death penalty in Israel, but when Eichmann was captured and put on trial he was given the death penalty. The man did things that were so horrible it was felt the only way to settle the matter was through retribution. Was it the right thing to do? I have no idea. Was it the right thing to do on a human level and on the level of moral standard? Possibly not. But it IS satisfying to know, to a certain extent, that the man who was responsible for devising the Final Solution is gone from this world.

That's exactly the kind of moral complexity Tarantino presents in the final chapter of the film. He offers no answers, and he doesn't really dwell on the matter, but its all there being thrown at you if you want to catch it.
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skjerva

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Re: Inglourious Basterds
« Reply #273 on: September 15, 2009, 10:16:14 AM »
Remember, Shoshonna doesn't just kill a bunch of random Nazis.  It's the Nazi high command, and it'd be pretty hard to feel sorry for them.


in the same way it would be hard to feel sorry for killing W, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and that circle of fools, right?

Those guys did some bad things, and a lot of people have died, but they didn't exactly set out to complete wipe out the existence of a whole race or races of people.


but not all nazis did, either.  just as there were plenty of americans not identified as nazis that were perfectly happy with the final solution.  and, major corporations helping make the holocaust possible.  and, that the holocaust was about more than wiping out a race of people - don't forget, it started with the extermination of disabled people.  when it was clear that people were letting tens of thousands of disabled people get shipped off and killed, it was clear that ramping up "production" was doable

anyway,  i agree with you that IB is asking us to question violence
But I wish the public could, in the midst of its pleasures, see how blatantly it is being spoon-fed, and ask for slightly better dreams. 
                        - Iris Barry from "The Public's Pleasure" (1926)

zarodinu

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Re: Inglourious Basterds
« Reply #274 on: September 15, 2009, 12:34:26 PM »
I think there are two questions here that you guys fail to separate.

1.  Did the Nazis deserve to die (within the movie universe)? 

The answers is yes.  These people obviously had it coming and needed to be killed for the common good.  I don't think anything in the movie suggests that Tarantino is opposed to the killing at the end.

2.  Why do we as an audience, ENJOY watching them die?

Here is the thing, what was done by the Nazis in Europe, and what is done to the Nazis in return (in the film) is not analogous.  You cannot say that killing mass murderers is the same as killing civilians.  Where the lines do get blurred is with the audience reaction to the killing.  Sure, the Nazis had it coming, but why do we get such a joy out of them getting their comeuppance?  That is what the theater scene is about, why do we get such a visceral thrill out of watching the glorification of the act of murder?  The joy we feel watching the bad guys getting shot and burned cannot be entirely explained by our desire for the war to end or for justice to be served, we enjoy the actual act, we enjoy watching people murdered; and that is a pretty interesting insight into the human race.

             
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skjerva

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Re: Inglourious Basterds
« Reply #275 on: September 15, 2009, 12:54:29 PM »
I think there are two questions here that you guys fail to separate.

1.  Did the Nazis deserve to die (within the movie universe)? 

2.  Why do we as an audience, ENJOY watching them die?
             

but not all of us do enjoy watching them die, or get joy out of it.  if you get that joy, it is a great question for you, i suppose.  my engagement with the film's violence is quite different. 

on your first question, i don't think it is obvious in the movie universe that the nazis deserved to die.  the fact that we are introduced to Aldo giving his venomous speech about killing nazis immediately after the venomous rhetoric we are previously introduced to from the nazis is no coincidence, these sentiments are clearly meant to echo.  this is meant to complicate the assumption that (uniformed) nazis deserve to die, that the work of the Basterds is honorable
But I wish the public could, in the midst of its pleasures, see how blatantly it is being spoon-fed, and ask for slightly better dreams. 
                        - Iris Barry from "The Public's Pleasure" (1926)

Fugee

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Re: Inglourious Basterds
« Reply #276 on: September 15, 2009, 02:33:38 PM »
2.  Why do we as an audience, ENJOY watching them die?

Here is the thing, what was done by the Nazis in Europe, and what is done to the Nazis in return (in the film) is not analogous.  You cannot say that killing mass murderers is the same as killing civilians.  Where the lines do get blurred is with the audience reaction to the killing.  Sure, the Nazis had it coming, but why do we get such a joy out of them getting their comeuppance?  That is what the theater scene is about, why do we get such a visceral thrill out of watching the glorification of the act of murder?  The joy we feel watching the bad guys getting shot and burned cannot be entirely explained by our desire for the war to end or for justice to be served, we enjoy the actual act, we enjoy watching people murdered; and that is a pretty interesting insight into the human race.

             
How sweet vengeance is. Nice post, zarodinu.

Osprey

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Re: Inglourious Basterds
« Reply #277 on: September 15, 2009, 03:49:45 PM »
Remember, Shoshonna doesn't just kill a bunch of random Nazis.  It's the Nazi high command, and it'd be pretty hard to feel sorry for them.


in the same way it would be hard to feel sorry for killing W, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and that circle of fools, right?

Those guys did some bad things, and a lot of people have died, but they didn't exactly set out to complete wipe out the existence of a whole race or races of people.


but not all nazis did, either.  just as there were plenty of americans not identified as nazis that were perfectly happy with the final solution.  and, major corporations helping make the holocaust possible.  and, that the holocaust was about more than wiping out a race of people - don't forget, it started with the extermination of disabled people.  when it was clear that people were letting tens of thousands of disabled people get shipped off and killed, it was clear that ramping up "production" was doable

anyway,  i agree with you that IB is asking us to question violence

I don't think there's much arguing about the guilt of the leading lights of the Nazi high command.

Osprey

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Re: Inglourious Basterds
« Reply #278 on: September 15, 2009, 03:50:53 PM »
I think there are two questions here that you guys fail to separate.

1.  Did the Nazis deserve to die (within the movie universe)? 

2.  Why do we as an audience, ENJOY watching them die?
             

but not all of us do enjoy watching them die, or get joy out of it.  if you get that joy, it is a great question for you, i suppose.  my engagement with the film's violence is quite different. 

on your first question, i don't think it is obvious in the movie universe that the nazis deserved to die.  the fact that we are introduced to Aldo giving his venomous speech about killing nazis immediately after the venomous rhetoric we are previously introduced to from the nazis is no coincidence, these sentiments are clearly meant to echo.  this is meant to complicate the assumption that (uniformed) nazis deserve to die, that the work of the Basterds is honorable


Or is it giving justification for Aldo's speech?

zarodinu

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Re: Inglourious Basterds
« Reply #279 on: September 15, 2009, 04:09:30 PM »
I think there are two questions here that you guys fail to separate.

1.  Did the Nazis deserve to die (within the movie universe)? 

2.  Why do we as an audience, ENJOY watching them die?

but not all of us do enjoy watching them die, or get joy out of it.  if you get that joy, it is a great question for you, i suppose.  my engagement with the film's violence is quite different. 

The theater I was in exploded in cheer during the climax, and I live in Ithaca NY, the most peacenik town in America.  I am pretty sure Tarantino intended for us to cheer for the bad guys demise, the scene is clearly filmed in a very dramatic and exploitative fashion, nowhere is any pathos shown to the Nazeees.  How else can you possibly react to that scene?  Shed a single tear for poor Adolf?

on your first question, i don't think it is obvious in the movie universe that the nazis deserved to die.  the fact that we are introduced to Aldo giving his venomous speech about killing nazis immediately after the venomous rhetoric we are previously introduced to from the nazis is no coincidence, these sentiments are clearly meant to echo.  this is meant to complicate the assumption that (uniformed) nazis deserve to die, that the work of the Basterds is honorable

Disagree completely.  Aldo's speech wasn't venomous at all, it was clearly meant to be humorous or atleast tongue in cheek (killin nazeees).  The showing of Nazi barbarity before the speech is not meant to show any similarity, its how all revenge films are structured.

Scene 1:         A terrible crime by villain
Scene 2:         Hero vows revenge
Rest of Movie:  Hero gets revenge 

Scene 1 makes us hate Nazis all over again, scene 2 makes us giddy for the revenge to come, the ending is the culmination of that promise of vengeance.  Again, nowhere is any equivalence drawn between the heroes and the Nazis. 
Ive lied to men who wear belts. Ive lied to men who wear suspenders. But Id never be so stupid as to lie to a man who wears both a belt and suspenders.