Author Topic: Religion  (Read 54894 times)

oldkid

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« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2009, 09:39:14 PM »


To be fair, that is completely NOT true.  There are different factions of Christianity holding to different positions.  I don't expect anyone to read the religion page, but the fact that the Lutherans, Methodists and the Episcopalians have split on this issue wasn't hidden in a corner.

I appreciate your position on Christianity.  I plan to spend my next few hours being Christ-like by calling churches hypocritical cemeteries.   ;D  

This is why I said nearly all. Lutherans, Methodists and the Episcopalians make up about 200 million of the worlds 2.1 billion Christians. So I stand by my statement that the vast majority of organized religion thinks homosexuality is a sin.

Note: I say religion thinks its a sin and not religious people as many Christians go against their churches teachings on this matter. Just not enough.

Sigh.  Religious discussions on Filmspotting.  Whatever.

The reason it's schizophrenic, is because of the basic teaching of the religion.  Because on the one hand, Paul specifically says that those who practice homosexuality will not enter the kingdom of God.  But Jesus says that sinners must be welcomed into the church and forgiveness must be practiced.  That's where the schizophrenia comes from.  Of course, it's much more complicated than that, but it really is an issue that the religion itself could never figure out what to do about sin, in general.
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« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2009, 09:41:10 PM »
I just skipped over that entire discussion on religion, and have done so with numerous other topics (Michael Moore for instance) just because I don't care. I love the topic of religion, I find it fascinating, but as soon as it was brought up I knew where it was going and just didn't care to know the details.
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Clovis8

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« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2009, 09:43:51 PM »


To be fair, that is completely NOT true.  There are different factions of Christianity holding to different positions.  I don't expect anyone to read the religion page, but the fact that the Lutherans, Methodists and the Episcopalians have split on this issue wasn't hidden in a corner.

I appreciate your position on Christianity.  I plan to spend my next few hours being Christ-like by calling churches hypocritical cemeteries.   ;D  

This is why I said nearly all. Lutherans, Methodists and the Episcopalians make up about 200 million of the worlds 2.1 billion Christians. So I stand by my statement that the vast majority of organized religion thinks homosexuality is a sin.

Note: I say religion thinks its a sin and not religious people as many Christians go against their churches teachings on this matter. Just not enough.

Sigh.  Religious discussions on Filmspotting.  Whatever.

The reason it's schizophrenic, is because of the basic teaching of the religion.  Because on the one hand, Paul specifically says that those who practice homosexuality will not enter the kingdom of God.  But Jesus says that sinners must be welcomed into the church and forgiveness must be practiced.  That's where the schizophrenia comes from.  Of course, it's much more complicated than that, but it really is an issue that the religion itself could never figure out what to do about sin, in general.

All I am saying is you cant pretend that Christianity is some kind of accepting social umbrella. For me there is only one thing too which it is acceptable to be intolerant, and thats intolerance.

P.S. I see no reason we cannot have a discussion about religion on Filmspotting as long as it is respectful. We discuss everything else. I know alot about religion even though I am an atheist, and you are a pastor, so us having a discussion on the subject should be interesting not cause for a sigh.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 09:48:02 PM by Clovis8 »

oldkid

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« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2009, 10:00:49 PM »


To be fair, that is completely NOT true.  There are different factions of Christianity holding to different positions.  I don't expect anyone to read the religion page, but the fact that the Lutherans, Methodists and the Episcopalians have split on this issue wasn't hidden in a corner.

I appreciate your position on Christianity.  I plan to spend my next few hours being Christ-like by calling churches hypocritical cemeteries.   ;D  

This is why I said nearly all. Lutherans, Methodists and the Episcopalians make up about 200 million of the worlds 2.1 billion Christians. So I stand by my statement that the vast majority of organized religion thinks homosexuality is a sin.

Note: I say religion thinks its a sin and not religious people as many Christians go against their churches teachings on this matter. Just not enough.

Sigh.  Religious discussions on Filmspotting.  Whatever.

The reason it's schizophrenic, is because of the basic teaching of the religion.  Because on the one hand, Paul specifically says that those who practice homosexuality will not enter the kingdom of God.  But Jesus says that sinners must be welcomed into the church and forgiveness must be practiced.  That's where the schizophrenia comes from.  Of course, it's much more complicated than that, but it really is an issue that the religion itself could never figure out what to do about sin, in general.

All I am saying is you cant pretend that Christianity is some kind of accepting social umbrella. For me there is only one thing too which it is acceptable to be intolerant, and thats intolerance.

P.S. I see no reason we cannot have a discussion about religion on Filmspotting as long as it is respectful. We discuss everything else. I know alot about religion even though I am an atheist and you are a pastor so us having a discussion on the subject should be interesting not sighful.

So you are tolerant of child pornographers, thieves who break into your home and people who quadruple post (like Froham)?  Everyone's got standards and limits and things they are intolerant of-- which is why we have a Pet Peeves thread.  What Paul was trying to get at in his list is not what people should not tolerate in others, both he and Jesus agreed that Christians have a responsibility to "tolerate" everyone.  That whole "love your enemies" thing.  That a basic in Christianity that many (read: most) Christians forget and often pretend that it doesn't exist.  (This is where the "whitewashed sepulchers" come in.)  But Paul was saying that for Christians, who claim to be following God's will, doing what God can't abide means that one can't live with God.

That's different than saying that Christianity is supposed to be intolerant.  That is a stereotype that is borne out by history, but not the New Testament. 

As for my sigh, it came from nervousness that the conversation "wouldn't go well".  Religion and politics and and women's ages and all that.
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FroHam X

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« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2009, 10:03:44 PM »
As a Jew I have a lot to say on the matter, but for fear of alienating my favourite Filmspotter I'll keep those thoughts to myself. Suffice it to say that any religion has good lessons to be learned, but there are plenty of way to approach those lessons, and I'm glad you've found some positive ways, but what you present is a narrow characterization. Interestingly the most accurate representation of Judaism I've seen is in A Serious Man. Really get to the heart of the religion as dogma, spirituality, and forced identity.

Also, if I get one more person saying, "but you're not allowed to eat pork," I think I might burst.  
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Clovis8

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« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2009, 10:11:35 PM »


So you are tolerant of child pornographers, thieves who break into your home and people who quadruple post (like Froham)?  Everyone's got standards and limits and things they are intolerant of-- which is why we have a Pet Peeves thread.  What Paul was trying to get at in his list is not what people should not tolerate in others, both he and Jesus agreed that Christians have a responsibility to "tolerate" everyone.  That whole "love your enemies" thing.  That a basic in Christianity that many (read: most) Christians forget and often pretend that it doesn't exist.  (This is where the "whitewashed sepulchers" come in.)  But Paul was saying that for Christians, who claim to be following God's will, doing what God can't abide means that one can't live with God.

That's different than saying that Christianity is supposed to be intolerant.  That is a stereotype that is borne out by history, but not the New Testament. 

As for my sigh, it came from nervousness that the conversation "wouldn't go well".  Religion and politics and and women's ages and all that.

I agree that the New Testament preaches tolerance. The problem, as you acknowledge, is that far too many Christians ignore this teaching. However, if we look to the Old Testament much of that Christ-like tolerance is missing.

For me the greatest thing Christianity could ever do is come to the realization that the Bible is a horrible place to look for social policy but a great place to look for ethics. It is silent on slavery but condones murdering adulterers. It is social policy rooted in the 1st century. On the other hand, Christ's ethics are a good guide for all people, Christian and non-Christian alike. 

Clovis8

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« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2009, 10:15:55 PM »
As a Jew I have a lot to say on the matter, but for fear of alienating my favourite Filmspotter I'll keep those thoughts to myself. Suffice it to say that any religion has good lessons to be learned, but there are plenty of way to approach those lessons, and I'm glad you've found some positive ways, but what you present is a narrow characterization. Interestingly the most accurate representation of Judaism I've seen is in A Serious Man. Really get to the heart of the religion as dogma, spirituality, and forced identity.

Also, if I get one more person saying, "but you're not allowed to eat pork," I think I might burst.  

My brother runs a large hotel and recently had an orthodox Jewish convention. I never knew how stick their guideline are for the Sabbath. They were prohibited from interacting with modern technology at all. They could not push elevator buttons nor ask someone else to do so. They had to hire someone to sit on the elevator and push all the buttons each time someone got on then the person could just get off on whichever floor they needed. They then had to have someone on each floor to use the card to open their door.

FroHam X

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« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2009, 10:22:42 PM »
As a Jew I have a lot to say on the matter, but for fear of alienating my favourite Filmspotter I'll keep those thoughts to myself. Suffice it to say that any religion has good lessons to be learned, but there are plenty of way to approach those lessons, and I'm glad you've found some positive ways, but what you present is a narrow characterization. Interestingly the most accurate representation of Judaism I've seen is in A Serious Man. Really get to the heart of the religion as dogma, spirituality, and forced identity.

Also, if I get one more person saying, "but you're not allowed to eat pork," I think I might burst.  

My brother runs a large hotel and recently had an orthodox Jewish convention. I never knew how stick their guideline are for the Sabbath. They were prohibited from interacting with modern technology at all. They could not push elevator buttons nor ask someone else to do so. They had to hire someone to sit on the elevator and push all the buttons each time someone got on then the person could just get off on whichever floor they needed. They then had to have someone on each floor to use the card to open their door.

Let's just say I have a lot of disdain for the practices of Orthodox Jews on the Sabbath.
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smirnoff

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« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2009, 10:22:57 PM »
I agree that the New Testament preaches tolerance. The problem, as you acknowledge, is that far too many Christians ignore this teaching.
Ignore or 'don't live up to'? We all fall short of our ideals.

oldkid

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« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2009, 10:33:30 PM »
I agree that the New Testament preaches tolerance. The problem, as you acknowledge, is that far too many Christians ignore this teaching.
Ignore or 'don't live up to'? We all fall short of our ideals.

Trust me, as an ethics-focused Christian:  it is "ignore".  I am often slamming my own religion because they just don't want to do the clearest principles they have.  Yes, they often use the Old Testament or social principles to justify their horrendous crimes, but there is really no excuse.  This is why, rather than have some teaching show on radio or whatever, I spend my time with the homeless and mentally ill.  SOMEBODY should be acting out the basic principles.  Might as well be me (and plenty of others as well).
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