Author Topic: Oldkid's Ultimately Cool (And Long) Top 100 Marathon  (Read 75472 times)

FroHam X

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Re: Oldkid's Ultimately Cool (And Long) Top 100 Marathon
« Reply #270 on: November 02, 2010, 12:39:14 AM »
I actually think the ethics are at points ambiguous and at other very good. You see, it is a tragedy when that door closes at the end. The idea of family respect is great, but the murderous aspects of it here are not supported.

But I complete agree otherwise. An astoundingly well made film to which I have no serious personal investment in and containing well drawn characters that I often don't really care about. As brilliant as the baptism scene is, you're right, It's hard to keep track of who is getting offed and more problematic is that I don't really care to know the who and why.
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verbALs

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Re: Oldkid's Ultimately Cool (And Long) Top 100 Marathon
« Reply #271 on: November 02, 2010, 06:09:06 AM »
A wider point about ethics in film and not a criticism of your conclusions. Films aren't there to teach ethics. However, the tension that is created between one's personal ethics and those of a character in a film, and Mike is a great example; can be tremendously compelling. Hence, the larger the difference in what you see on screen and what you personally believe the more engaged one can be in a film.
Michael Corleone is compelled by family loyalty to do some horrific acts purely because of the world his family operate in. Thankfully, normal people don't get to have the loyalty tested in such extreme ways, but we are watching a man lose himself by following what to his family may seem the 'honourable' path. Ironically the hell he sinks into means he loses the family he tries to create for himself with Kay. The compelling aspects are that you can easily see the course he follows, it communicates easily. The enormous difference in how he ends up in his world to how things go in the normal world, probably is one reasons that this is such a great and revered work.
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oldkid

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Re: Oldkid's Ultimately Cool (And Long) Top 100 Marathon
« Reply #272 on: November 02, 2010, 10:48:36 AM »
A wider point about ethics in film and not a criticism of your conclusions. Films aren't there to teach ethics. However, the tension that is created between one's personal ethics and those of a character in a film, and Mike is a great example; can be tremendously compelling. Hence, the larger the difference in what you see on screen and what you personally believe the more engaged one can be in a film.
Michael Corleone is compelled by family loyalty to do some horrific acts purely because of the world his family operate in. Thankfully, normal people don't get to have the loyalty tested in such extreme ways, but we are watching a man lose himself by following what to his family may seem the 'honourable' path. Ironically the hell he sinks into means he loses the family he tries to create for himself with Kay. The compelling aspects are that you can easily see the course he follows, it communicates easily. The enormous difference in how he ends up in his world to how things go in the normal world, probably is one reasons that this is such a great and revered work.


Some film IS there to teach ethics, or at least to open up ethical questions or to show an ethical example.  I prefer those, personally, although I can certainly see the greatness in a film like the Godfather that is just observing the ethical downfall of another.  It just won't make my personal top 10.  That's one of the reasons that I have an ethics category in my ratings-- because ethics is an important aspect of film to me.  Not the only one, but one important aspect.

Major spoilers in this paragraph:
However, I don't think he is trying to create a family with Kay.  Kay, at first, was an open display of how he was going in a different direction than his family.  When his family needed him, he had to set Kay aside.  The real family he tried to create was in Sicily, with his wife there.  When that was destroyed by family business, he fully accepted that he needed to defend his honor.  I think that his wife dying is the pivotal aspect of his character-- the murders he does later is not so much out of family honor, but out of revenge for his wife.  He became heartless.  When he approached Kay, note he didn't try to court her or love her, his proposal was simply a business proposition.  He needed a public face of a good citizen with a wife and a child and a religious connection.  But in the end, it was all for business.  Any time he said he cared about his child or wife, it was with the same tone of voice that he carefully lied to Kay in the last scene.
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oneaprilday

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Re: Oldkid's Ultimately Cool (And Long) Top 100 Marathon
« Reply #273 on: November 02, 2010, 11:11:51 AM »
Some film IS there to teach ethics, or at least to open up ethical questions or to show an ethical example.  I prefer those, personally, although I can certainly see the greatness in a film like the Godfather that is just observing the ethical downfall of another.  It just won't make my personal top 10.  That's one of the reasons that I have an ethics category in my ratings-- because ethics is an important aspect of film to me.  Not the only one, but one important aspect.
Just trying to understand your approach - are you saying that you prefer those films that teach ethics or model ethics that are compatible with your own?

verbALs

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Re: Oldkid's Ultimately Cool (And Long) Top 100 Marathon
« Reply #274 on: November 02, 2010, 01:53:20 PM »
Oldkid, one of the great aspects of your reviews is that you actually try to include something as difficult as ethics in movies. I respect that immensely. By having it as a category in your reviews, it shows that ethics DO matter and should not be ignored or cast aside, just because this is entertainment, so respect to that.
The Sicilian episode seems like an easy fit to the family life of Omerta. The Kay 'family' (a modern family?) just will not fit into the easier black & white life that the Mafia family offers Michael. Also that Michael is ex-army ie a true American but becomes this throw back to an old European way of thinking, fits with how he takes to that Sicilian way of life. The Sicilian wife is part of that.
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IdeaThy12

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Re: Oldkid's Ultimately Cool (And Long) Top 100 Marathon
« Reply #275 on: November 02, 2010, 04:50:55 PM »
u should rewatch hercules  ;D
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oldkid

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Re: Oldkid's Ultimately Cool (And Long) Top 100 Marathon
« Reply #276 on: November 03, 2010, 12:43:15 AM »
Some film IS there to teach ethics, or at least to open up ethical questions or to show an ethical example.  I prefer those, personally, although I can certainly see the greatness in a film like the Godfather that is just observing the ethical downfall of another.  It just won't make my personal top 10.  That's one of the reasons that I have an ethics category in my ratings-- because ethics is an important aspect of film to me.  Not the only one, but one important aspect.
Just trying to understand your approach - are you saying that you prefer those films that teach ethics or model ethics that are compatible with your own?

I like film that deals with ethical issues in a variety of ways.  The Mission, for instance, gives two different ethical approaches to a difficult situation.  It doesn't matter that I prefer one ethical approach over the other, it opens up the discussion, which is what I like the best.  The Decalogue is one of my favorite films on ethics, because it takes something that many people know about and twists it until you feel you have to figure it all out again.

This does not mean that I don't appreciate films that simply present, or forcefully preach, my own ethical point of view, such as Joyeux Noel.  I love that film mostly because I agree with it ethically.

I guess I'm saying I like films that indicate that they give thought to ethics and don't ignore them or hide them.
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oldkid

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Re: Oldkid's Ultimately Cool (And Long) Top 100 Marathon
« Reply #277 on: November 03, 2010, 12:48:13 AM »
u should rewatch hercules  ;D

I won't be putting Hercules on my top 100, sorry.

But if you make me, I'll be glad to watch it again.  :)
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sdedalus

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Re: Oldkid's Ultimately Cool (And Long) Top 100 Marathon
« Reply #278 on: November 03, 2010, 12:56:00 AM »
I guess I'm saying I like films that indicate that they give thought to ethics and don't ignore them or hide them.

Isn't the Godfather series about the differing ideas of ethics that Vito and Michael have?

Also, just because a film's characters aren't ethical doesn't mean the film is.  It's possible for a film to portray nothing but immoral actions and still make a morally "correct" statement, isn't it?
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oldkid

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Re: Oldkid's Ultimately Cool (And Long) Top 100 Marathon
« Reply #279 on: November 03, 2010, 01:00:27 AM »
I guess I'm saying I like films that indicate that they give thought to ethics and don't ignore them or hide them.

Isn't the Godfather series about the differing ideas of ethics that Vito and Michael have?

Also, just because a film's characters aren't ethical doesn't mean the film is.  It's possible for a film to portray nothing but immoral actions and still make a morally "correct" statement, isn't it?

Absolutely.  I just didn't care for the stripping of ethics that happens to the main protagonist.  I agree with Fro Ham's perspective that it is a tragedy, but I wonder if part of the purpose is to actually strip our own ethics by having us follow Michael's path.  Or maybe that's just me.  Or maybe I should stop watching great but complex movies at one in the morning.

I am willing to be convinced of the Godfather's ethical stance, but right now, I am not.  Godfather II will be judged on its own ethical merit.  ;)
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