Author Topic: Black Swan  (Read 18291 times)

Emiliana

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Re: Black Swan
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2010, 11:39:43 AM »
Amazing review, FCM!

I had an extremely similar reaction to the film when I saw it in a surprise preview last week, it's only that I resented the masculine view of female sexuality so much that it overshadowed almost everything else - it went so far that I almost hated having to sit through it. Well, I also hadn't seen the trailer in months, so I had forgotten that there were going to be horror elements in the film. This experience told me that I am doing the right thing by staying as far away as possible from the horror genre as I can - I just can't deal with stuff like that. Like you, I had a physical reaction to the film - my heartbeat was thrown seriously out of rhythm a couple of times, which did not feel good at all.

Now that a few days have passed, I can recognize the technical brilliance of the film, the dancerly camera work, Nathalie Portman's impressive dedication to the project, the subtly effective production design (great point about the grey, white and pink hues of the film, and the significance of the black top!), but overall, the fact remains that Black Swan is in my Top 3 most uncomfortable viewing experiences of the year.


ses

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Re: Black Swan
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2010, 09:00:47 PM »

I resented the masculine view of female sexuality so much that it overshadowed almost everything else

I felt this way too, which is one of the reasons that kept me from really loving the film, and only liking it.

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Clovis8

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Re: Black Swan
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2010, 10:06:57 PM »
This may sound odd coming from a man but honestly nearly everyone seems to be totally missing the point of the sexuality in this film.

The idea that the sexuality in the film is male wish fulfillment is totally missing the point, and is a little misogynistic to be honest. It's about repressing sexuality, hardly a common male fantasy. Nina is so obsessed with perfection to her craft she has forsaken everything else, including her own sexuality. Furthermore, the idea that any expression of any female sexuality is somehow tied to male wish fulfillment shows how messed up and repressed the Western view of female sexuality has become. Female sexuality is not automatically connected to male sexuality. In fact, female sexuality is far more fluid, and less connected to male sexuality, than male sexuality is connected to female.

Not a single sex scene in the film has anything to do with men. Every single one is about female sexuality, it's fluidity, and complexity. There is this knee jerk reaction among men that any sign of female sexuality must be tied to male fulfillment somehow. Thinking the "lesbian scene" is about men is as silly as thinking all lesbian porn is about men. In fact it's even more chauvinistic than that, it's tantamount to thinking that all female masturbation is about men since the scene is her masturbating and has nothing to do with men!

Lily is simply her alter-ego that she must tap into to express any feelings of sexuality. 

ses

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Re: Black Swan
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2010, 10:13:35 PM »
I don't think it has to do with missing the point, I get the point, I just didn't like the way it was portrayed on film.  I am not usually bothered by things of this nature, but something about this felt uncomfortable, and that probably was the point, I still found it overbearing to a point of distraction. I have seen other masturbation scenes or "lesbian scenes" that didn't feel this intrusive or voyeuristic.  You keep saying female sexuality is more fluid, this didn't feel fluid, it felt blunt and not fluid at all.
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Clovis8

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Re: Black Swan
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2010, 10:21:11 PM »
I don't think it has to do with missing the point, I get the point, I just didn't like the way it was portrayed on film.  I am not usually bothered by things of this nature, but something about this felt uncomfortable, and that probably was the point, I still found it overbearing to a point of distraction. I have seen other masturbation scenes or "lesbian scenes" that didn't feel this intrusive or voyeuristic.  You keep saying female sexuality is more fluid, this didn't feel fluid, it felt blunt and not fluid at all.

The idea that female sexuality and discovery is not always connected to men is what I mean by fluid. A women discovering her sexuality is FAR more likely to explore same and opposite sex experience and fantasies than a man is, therefore Nina falling in love with a man while fantasizing about a woman is far more realistic than most films.

I really think it is a symptom of our collective twisted view of female sexuality that a film which has several sex scenes, not one of which has anything to do with men, can be viewed as male fulfillment. This view basically holds that all sexuality, both male and female, is male. It's sad.

11% of women have had a same sex experience in their life and far more have fantasized about it. Of those 11%, none were thinking about men!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 10:24:55 PM by Clovis8 »

ses

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Re: Black Swan
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2010, 10:25:43 PM »
I don't think it has to do with missing the point, I get the point, I just didn't like the way it was portrayed on film.  I am not usually bothered by things of this nature, but something about this felt uncomfortable, and that probably was the point, I still found it overbearing to a point of distraction. I have seen other masturbation scenes or "lesbian scenes" that didn't feel this intrusive or voyeuristic.  You keep saying female sexuality is more fluid, this didn't feel fluid, it felt blunt and not fluid at all.

The idea that female sexuality and discovery is not always connected to men is what I mean by fluid. A women discovering her sexuality is FAR more likely to explore same and opposite sex experience and fantasies than a man is, therefore Nina falling in love with a man while fantasizing about a woman is far more realistic than most films.

I really think it is a symptom of our collective twisted view of female sexuality that a film which has several sex scenes, not one of which has anything to do with men, can be viewed as male fulfillment. This view basically holds that all sexuality, both male and female, is male. It's sad.

Sorry I misunderstood you, I get what you are saying now.  I don't think my main problem with the sex scenes is that they are "male centric", I think it is just part of the whole for the film for me.  I felt like everything was overbearing, the repressed sexuality, the hallucinations, the repeated bloody fingernails, etc.  All of these plot points, along with the frenetic camera work was a bit too much for me.   I still liked the film, I know my responses might not convey that, but I did have some problems with it.  The sex scenes were really a minor quibble for me.
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Clovis8

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Re: Black Swan
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2010, 10:33:21 PM »
I don't think it has to do with missing the point, I get the point, I just didn't like the way it was portrayed on film.  I am not usually bothered by things of this nature, but something about this felt uncomfortable, and that probably was the point, I still found it overbearing to a point of distraction. I have seen other masturbation scenes or "lesbian scenes" that didn't feel this intrusive or voyeuristic.  You keep saying female sexuality is more fluid, this didn't feel fluid, it felt blunt and not fluid at all.

The idea that female sexuality and discovery is not always connected to men is what I mean by fluid. A women discovering her sexuality is FAR more likely to explore same and opposite sex experience and fantasies than a man is, therefore Nina falling in love with a man while fantasizing about a woman is far more realistic than most films.

I really think it is a symptom of our collective twisted view of female sexuality that a film which has several sex scenes, not one of which has anything to do with men, can be viewed as male fulfillment. This view basically holds that all sexuality, both male and female, is male. It's sad.

Sorry I misunderstood you, I get what you are saying now.  I don't think my main problem with the sex scenes is that they are "male centric", I think it is just part of the whole for the film for me.  I felt like everything was overbearing, the repressed sexuality, the hallucinations, the repeated bloody fingernails, etc.  All of these plot points, along with the frenetic camera work was a bit too much for me.   I still liked the film, I know my responses might not convey that, but I did have some problems with it.  The sex scenes were really a minor quibble for me.

Those are all fair views of the film, although I disagree with them.  ;)

This is just one of those topics that gets me really worked up since my girlfriend studies the sociology of sexuality, specifically female sexuality, so I obsess more about this than the average person. I am all for people having their own opinions on film but I really think seeing this films a focussed on male sexuality is such a symptom of our collective disease.

I will agree it was annoying to see Nina climaxing instantly when she began to masturbate but I will let that slide in a film that has so much compressed time and other illusions. I will try to pretend that too way a part of her delusion. :D
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 10:35:13 PM by Clovis8 »

Bondo

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Re: Black Swan
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2010, 10:33:27 PM »
Clovis, I'd like to see how your thesis explains the scenes where Tomas forces himself on Nina. I totally got him talking to her about her sexual experience and telling her to masturbate...that was about trying to open up her erotic side that he saw as necessary to the black swan...and it could be seen as empowering her sexually. But his kissing her, telling her to open her mouth so he could give her tongue, his groping her...none of that can really be excused as typical or necessary of the dance practice process and should be considered assault. And that the response is "someone's hot for teacher" and the awakening of her desire, both for him and more generally, is so typical of patriarchal views of sex where force and aggression is a viable strategy. Whatever your view of the success of the masturbation and lesbian scenes, I find this particular part hard to justify.

That said, if you compare the scene here to Jennifer Connelly in Requiem, that feels like a less sensationalistic scene. It is male gratification within the film (being performed for the benefit of males) but for the audience it isn't, it is the horrific nadir of her character arc. That strikes me as a much more powerful use of fairly explicit sexuality. The scenes in Black Swan don't seem as comfortable fits within the story. Perhaps one problem is that if you were to compare authentic scenes of the type Black Swan features with what you might find in feminist (non-male centric) porn, the latter would be much slower paced...something that the film couldn't really afford for its pacing. Given that constraint it was always going to be a bit difficult to feel authentic so I don't knock it too much.

ses

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Re: Black Swan
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2010, 10:35:24 PM »
I don't think it has to do with missing the point, I get the point, I just didn't like the way it was portrayed on film.  I am not usually bothered by things of this nature, but something about this felt uncomfortable, and that probably was the point, I still found it overbearing to a point of distraction. I have seen other masturbation scenes or "lesbian scenes" that didn't feel this intrusive or voyeuristic.  You keep saying female sexuality is more fluid, this didn't feel fluid, it felt blunt and not fluid at all.

The idea that female sexuality and discovery is not always connected to men is what I mean by fluid. A women discovering her sexuality is FAR more likely to explore same and opposite sex experience and fantasies than a man is, therefore Nina falling in love with a man while fantasizing about a woman is far more realistic than most films.

I really think it is a symptom of our collective twisted view of female sexuality that a film which has several sex scenes, not one of which has anything to do with men, can be viewed as male fulfillment. This view basically holds that all sexuality, both male and female, is male. It's sad.

11% of women have had a same sex experience in their life and far more have fantasized about it. Of those 11%, none were thinking about men!

I don't think it has to do with whether or not Nina is fantasizing about a woman or a man or actually having to do with a man at all.  The way the masturbation and sex scene are shot and portrayed seemed more from a male perspective, like something a man would want to see.  That's what it felt like to me, I am not saying I am right, or can speak for any man.  I am just saying how that is how it felt.  Less like what Nina was fantasizing about and more how she wanted to be seen fantasizing if that makes any sense.
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StudentOFilm

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Re: Black Swan
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2010, 10:36:19 PM »
Yeah skimming over the debate on this, I didn't see the film being overly sexualized towards any gender. Frankly the only times I get peeved are when during an action film you get the obligatory shot of a woman's ass. Black Swan just felt like "oh, there goes Natalie Portman, Vincent Cassel, and Mila Kunis doing the dirty." And yes, what Cassel's character did to Portman's was dickish.

That is my very in depth contribution to this discussion.  :)
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